The Cal way or the Hoya way

[NoBoumtjeInTheYaYaRoom]

I put this in the Nerlens Noel Recruiting thread as a response to T-Bird, but I thought it might make for an interesting discussion of how people feel about Gtown recruiting vs. Calipari like recruting, and whether the increased chance of championships make Cal's way acceptable to Hoya fans:

T-Bird:

I have a Lexington born and bred, UK alumnus wife who makes Ashley Judd look like a casual fan. I get to hear a similar argument to what you made at every family function. And it has some merits in my opinion. But, in a perfect world, do I think the Coach K's and Roy Williams' of the world would recruit these type of players...no. However, the NCAA is about the farthest thing in the world from a eutopia, and what makes them great coaches is the ability to adapt to what they "need to do" to win championships. In the current college bball landscape, recruiting one and dones who care about an education about as much as Kim Kardashian cared about Kris Humphreys is the best model to increase your national title odds.

Calipari already has cornered this market. And like any shrewd business, makes it extremely difficult for others to tap into his market share. By offering "promotions" like paid summer league camp invites, a direct line to World Wide Wes, an osbcure position in the basketball office, a junior marketing consultant job within Nike's group that deals with UK hoops - he offers incentives others cannot or will not (All of these examples are something a connection to recruited players have received through the years). And by the letter of the NCAA law, NONE of these actions are illegal. Can the NCAA ever prove that an AAU coach isn't qualified to be a paid summer camp employee? Or that giving the cell phone information and scheduling a lunch with a friend like WW Wes to an uncle that's an inspiring agent is anything more than a friendly (no money exchange) gesture? That a brother of a player with a college degree couldn't get a junior marketing position on his own? All of it is shady and working within the gray area, but nothing that will ever warrant NCAA action under the current system.

I thought Eamonn Brennan (now with ESPN where this article would have never happened) was spot on in the article below taht he wrote when Cal was first taking over at UK, where he talks about no specific Calipari incident, but rather his "aura" of impropriety. We all know it doesn't taste right, smell right, or act right, but no one has any proof that its gone bad. (as for the Camby, Williams, and Rose issues at UMASS and Memphis, it dealt with 2 agents and an SAT, which Cal maybe should have known about but could never be attached to).

rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/....n=nc aab,151749

Brennan concludes the article by stating that at 27 wins a year, the UK faithful won't care. Well Cal @uk has won 35 in 09, 29 in 10, and 36 so far in 11, an Elite Eight and Two final Fours. And UK fans MORE than don't care how he gets it done if it ain't illegal.

As for Gtown, I'm torn. Do I like the integrity that is synonymous with our program? Of course. Do I want to win championships? Maybe more than I like the integrity!

[TBird41]

I was responding to the Klosterman article which was arguing that a UK title would somehow change anything. You yourself made my argument for me--a UK title won't change what the other schools are doing. The win at all costs schools / most of the big names would recruit like Calipari if they could (bring in classes of one and dones). They can't, whether its bc Calipari is better at the necessary "tactics" than Boeheim or bc Coach K is only willing to have Myron Piggie and Nike and his boosters do favors for a only one recruit a class. Or maybe it's bc, after getting heavily recruited by both UCLA and UK the walking NCAA violation Shebazz Mohammed would rather play in the dribble drive than Ben Howland's system.

A UK title won't change the way other schools do differently. Klosterman is wrong if he thinks it will.

Also, I didn't say that I would change the way Georgetown does things.

[TBird41]

Putting it another way--what's the difference b/w UK under Calipari and UCLA under Wooden? Aside from a coach focused on putting on socks and the willingness of the NBA to draft freshmen?

[GUJook97]

I think there is something to Klosterman's point. If Kentucky wins, say, this year and next, I think you will see more of a trend of top 25 recruits coalescing around 4-5 schools. They will know that they can not only star at those schools, but win. I think the knock against the Kentucky model has always been that that having Fab Freshman style teams is that they were green in the clutch, couldnt play together, made dumb mistakes, such that you had to play upperclassmen with them. That is not the case with this Kentucky team, and isnt likely to be going forward. You could even see the trend playing out in last nights McD game. It seems like at least 4-5 of those guys are going to end up at Kentucky.

[TBird41]

Mar 29, 2012 8:34:44 GMT -5 GUJook97 said:

I think there is something to Klosterman's point. If Kentucky wins, say, this year and next, I think you will see more of a trend of top 25 recruits coalescing around 4-5 schools. They will know that they can not only star at those schools, but win. I think the knock against the Kentucky model has always been that that having Fab Freshman style teams is that they were green in the clutch, couldnt play together, made dumb mistakes, such that you had to play upperclassmen with them. That is not the case with this Kentucky team, and isnt likely to be going forward. You could even see the trend playing out in last nights McD game. It seems like at least 4-5 of those guys are going to end up at Kentucky.

I just think that's already happening / was already happening. The only difference b/w the talent going to UK & UNC/Duke/Kansas/Baylor/UConn is that the non-UK players are not impressing enough to necessarily go pro (see, for example, Harrison Barnes) which means there aren't the lineup openings that top recruits might want.

[Filo]

Oh c'mon, there is clearly a big difference between what Calipari does and what a Coach K / Roy Williams do. As much as Coach K is hypocrite and pulls some stunts, he has never had a sniff of impropriety in his program. Calipari has the upper hand on the recruiting trail for a reason, and failure to recognize that is lame. And please don't make me say anything nice about Coack K any more. I am heading off to take a shower.

[lexkyhoya]

Being born and raised in Lexington, a graduate from the University of Kentucky, and die hard Hoya fan / Anti- KY bball fan, I felt the need to post here. I can assure you that fans around here are brainwashed into thinking that Cal no longer "needs to cheat" because of the facilities and aura that Kentucky basketball has. Furthermore, winning a championship is ALL that these people care about around here. It also does get very frustrating watching the talent come in year after year. Just yesterday I had to sit at a happy hour and listen to my friends quote a Rothstein article that suggests both NN and Shabazz will be Wildcats next year. I am praying that Nerlens sees the big picture and decides on us. By the way before anyone asks me how someone in my position came to be a Hoya, my parents took me to the 85 final 4 games and bought me a Gtown tshirt... I was hooked and have been a loyal fan ever since!

[TBird41]

Mar 29, 2012 8:58:07 GMT -5 Filo said:

Oh c'mon, there is clearly a big difference between what Calipari does and what a Coach K / Roy Williams do. As much as Coach K is hypocrite and pulls some stunts, he has never had a sniff of impropriety in his program. Calipari has the upper hand on the recruiting trail for a reason, and failure to recognize that is lame. And please don't make me say anything nice about Coack K any more. I am heading off to take a shower.

Duke isn't clean.

rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=dw-ncaafavorites

www.truthaboutduke.com/duhon_nola.php

[whatmaroon]

Mar 29, 2012 8:58:07 GMT -5 Filo said:

Oh c'mon, there is clearly a big difference between what Calipari does and what a Coach K / Roy Williams do. As much as Coach K is hypocrite and pulls some stunts, he has never had a sniff of impropriety in his program. Calipari has the upper hand on the recruiting trail for a reason, and failure to recognize that is lame. And please don't make me say anything nice about Coack K any more. I am heading off to take a shower.

Personally, I see the difference between arranging high-paying jobs for relatively low-skilled parents and hiring AAU coaches for summer camp and donating to their "foundation" or getting a relatively low-skilled brother a marketing job as one of degree rather than of kind.

If that's the price of being a program that begins and ends almost every season ranked in the top ten, then I'm happy to be a fan of a program that isn't. If that's the price of a program that's a consistent NCAA tournament team, then that would be a different issue. Fortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case.

[TBird41]

Mar 29, 2012 9:07:36 GMT -5 lexkyhoya said:

Being born and raised in Lexington, a graduate from the University of Kentucky, and die hard Hoya fan / Anti- KY bball fan, I felt the need to post here. I can assure you that fans around here are brainwashed into thinking that Cal no longer "needs to cheat" because of the facilities and aura that Kentucky basketball has. Furthermore, winning a championship is ALL that these people care about around here. It also does get very frustrating watching the talent come in year after year. Just yesterday I had to sit at a happy hour and listen to my friends quote a Rothstein article that suggests both NN and Shabazz will be Wildcats next year. I am praying that Nerlens sees the big picture and decides on us. By the way before anyone asks me how someone in my position came to be a Hoya, my parents took me to the 85 final 4 games and bought me a Gtown tshirt... I was hooked and have been a loyal fan ever since!

Yeah, those people who don't think Cal cheats are as naive as those who think that other blue blood programs don't cheat.

[lexkyhoya]

trust me... people have no clue how brainwashed and hypocritical the "BBN" is. What's even more comical is that the majority are the first to call out Duke as being the ones who get away with everything... unfortunately I have had to endure listening to it my whole life!

[FrazierFanatic]

It's no different at Syracuse, UConn, etc. - their fans will insist that they are clean programs, just an occasional bad decision by a good kid, with no possible way for the program to prevent it, etc. There are posters on the Syracuse board that are already insisting that if Noel comes to the Hoyas it is only because we will pay him the most, and that if he wants a program with morals and integrity he will go to Suckacuse! I would much, much rather be a Hoya fan, 'cuz I don't have to take a long shower after every game to wash away the dirt and the stench.

[Madgesdiq]

The defense of Calipari on this forum is sickening.

[HoyasAreHungry]

Mar 29, 2012 9:57:11 GMT -5 FrazierFanatic said:

It's no different at Syracuse, UConn, etc. - their fans will insist that they are clean programs, just an occasional bad decision by a good kid, with no possible way for the program to prevent it, etc. There are posters on the Syracuse board that are already insisting that if Noel comes to the Hoyas it is only because we will pay him the most, and that if he wants a program with morals and integrity he will go to Suckacuse! I would much, much rather be a Hoya fan, 'cuz I don't have to take a long shower after every game to wash away the dirt and the stench.

Well this is an interesting conundrum I was thinking about earlier and that you touched on here. With the circus atmosphere around the NN recruitment and the claims that he will go to the highest bidder, how will we feel if we actually land him? Will we think we cheated? That he came to his senses or has no idea of his handlers getting paid off and made his own decision rather than listening to the leeches?

Granted I would love to land him and will convince myself of the latter, but what about the perception from others?

[Hoyaholic]

Mar 29, 2012 9:23:35 GMT -5 lexkyhoya said:

trust me... people have no clue how brainwashed and hypocritical the "BBN" is. What's even more comical is that the majority are the first to call out Duke as being the ones who get away with everything... unfortunately I have had to endure listening to it my whole life!

I sat down at a bar next to a UK fan in LA last year who tried to convince me with a straight face that (a) Calipari isn't breaking or bending any rules at UK; (b) that Calipari had never broken any rules while at Memphis or Umass; and (c) that Calipari had self-reported the violations that led to UM and UMass vacating their final fours.

He became visibly angry when I told him that he was free to believe (a) and (b), but that (c) was flat out untrue. He definitely cared whether Cal was cheating, he had just convinced himself that it was wholly untrue.

Whatever gets you through the night, I guess.

[Filo]

Mar 29, 2012 9:07:53 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

Mar 29, 2012 8:58:07 GMT -5 Filo said:

Oh c'mon, there is clearly a big difference between what Calipari does and what a Coach K / Roy Williams do. As much as Coach K is hypocrite and pulls some stunts, he has never had a sniff of impropriety in his program. Calipari has the upper hand on the recruiting trail for a reason, and failure to recognize that is lame. And please don't make me say anything nice about Coack K any more. I am heading off to take a shower.

Duke isn't clean.

rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=dw-ncaafavorites

www.truthaboutduke.com/duhon_nola.php

Ok, I'll give you that they are not free of impropriety if you want. But you don't think they conduct things with more integrity than Cal? Again, not that I want to defend Duke here, but what's the theory of this thread? Cal is just a misunderstood guy who has been singled out by the bluebloods? These same bluebloods control the media and the NCAA?

I hear these bluebloods control Hollywood and the Military Industrial Complex, too. I don't believe it. I guess I am just naive.

[GUJook97]

Do you guys really think that Kentucky is successful because they are cheating? It makes perfect sense for 1 and done guys to go to a school like Kentucky regardless of any cheating. Calipari plays them right away, plays them extensively, has no qualms with them leaving after a year, and they are basically gods in the state. If I was the number 1 recruit required by rule to go to college prior to going to the NBA, I would go where I would be showcased the most. That's the only reason why we think NN will go to Georgetown.

[lexkyhoya]

If this gives you guys any indication of the denial that these fans are in my friend yesterday told me he is convinced if Shabazz comes to KY he will probably have to sit out the whole year because the NCAA is "out to get Cal" and that if he goes anywhere else he will be fine. Its funny though when I bring up Camby/Memphis/Eric Bledsoe, the response is always "Cal was never found directly involved" or "Cal didnt know about it". It comical.

[AltoSaxa]

Seems to me the only way for the NCAA to move against the "professionalizing" of college BB is to require 2 years of college or none. In the former all the top players would not want to go to Kentucky due to less playing time. With the latter the overall talent in college BB would go down but the playing field would be more equal.

[GUJook97]

Mar 29, 2012 12:01:11 GMT -5 AltoSaxa said:

Seems to me the only way for the NCAA to move against the "professionalizing" of college BB is to require 2 years of college or none. In the former all the top players would not want to go to Kentucky due to less playing time. With the latter the overall talent in college BB would go down but the playing field would be more equal.

I was going to add that, too. I think the issue is more about the 1 and done rule than any thing being done at particular schools. I am not defending Calipari, I am just saying that I can easily see the argument that he doesnt have to cheat to succeed right now.