hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 24, 2012 17:03:37 GMT -5
Nice post NTAMM. I don't think CW gets the credit he deserve because we lost in the 1st rd against VCU. I think we would have made a deep run last year had Chris not gotten injured. We would have been playing better and seeded higher. Thus avoided the buzz saw that was VCU..........
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 24, 2012 17:08:35 GMT -5
I'm all for dribble penetration, but I hate watching teams whose the guards spend the whole game dribbling around and pointing for their teammates to set screens for them. We hate watching those teams too. And those teams aren't making it far anyway. Again no one is asking for the extreme. We are asking/hoping that Gtown adds other elements to its style, not replace its style with pound-the-rock basketball.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Mar 24, 2012 17:51:43 GMT -5
GU is. There are different-type players then in the past. Question: Does this current GU team lose by 20+ to VCU? How about let Ohio score 85+?
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Mar 24, 2012 18:52:04 GMT -5
Though not a true guard, Austin Freeman was the best strong to the hoop player that JT3 ever had. I truly believe he was never the same player after the diabetes diagnosis. He could do it for short spurts but not for 30 minutes. Anyone who saw him put 28 up in the second half against UCONN will never forget it.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Mar 24, 2012 19:15:46 GMT -5
Don't see what precludes JTIII from having a guard with dribble-drive skills who can play within the system but also have the skill to go to the rim when a play breaks down as option. Generally agree with this. On a more general level, for me regardless of the "system" however defined, the more talented and versatile players you can have, the better. The reason our successful teams were successful, IMO, has a lot to do with the versatility of Jeff Green + the added options of Hibbert, Wallace, Summers, etc. Not exactly rocket science here, I know. That being said, a moment of devil's advocacy: it seems to me that Rakeem Christmas and Baye Keita have range out to about six inches. But Syracuse in this tournament has been getting good production from both because Jardine in particular and to a lesser extent Triche, Fair, and Waiters can drive the lane and draw defenders, leaving lay-offs for dunks. Cuse runs a fairly simple but effective curl play that works b/c their guards have superior speed to get around the corner and force help defense. Cue the dunks--which Rak and Baye don't even make all the time! We actually broke out some better pick and roll plays during the NCAA's this season, so that's something. But we're still not truly dangerous from the guard position b/c we don't have the speed or the shooting ability (Jardine's been alright from distance as well). IDK if it's a "dribble drive" guard per se, just more of a versatile threat beyond the occasional Starks pull-up jumper (a decent weapon, but nothing to plan around or help to as of yet).
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Post by michaeldm9 on Mar 24, 2012 19:56:01 GMT -5
I started this thread not to complain about the system. I love the of fence. Its real basketball. That.s why I think we have had consist ant success in the regular season especially with all of the constant player turnover. I just think we need to teak it. To make that move to an elite program. I love hoe the program is ran and the type of player we get. 3 to 4 year players.
But our lack of post season success has a reason. When I look at the team over the years we have lost with Great Post Player, Good 3 point shooting, Great defense. The only thing we have not had a a person the can create off the dribble.
So I just wonder is it not part of the system or are we going to always loose out on these players because of the system.
Chris Wright was not effective off the dribble over his 4 years. Austin didn't do it enough. Jason has had spurts. Hollis doesn't go strong enough.
I do agree Jabril may be that player that will develop as Gtown needed perpetrator.
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on Mar 24, 2012 19:56:49 GMT -5
I just had this convo earlier today with another Hoya fan. Definitely need one for when the O breaks down. I think DSR can do it, but a quicker cat as well. Markel can if his confidence is up.
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Post by michaeldm9 on Mar 24, 2012 20:16:39 GMT -5
I just had this convo earlier today with another Hoya fan. Definitely need one for when the O breaks down. I think DSR can do it, but a quicker cat as well. Markel can if his confidence is up. DSR has no lift from the video I have seen of him. It seems Markel get sat down when ever he tries to do it. That.s why I wonder is ti something that JTIII frowns upon. I think if Hollis would just go strong and quick being all herky-jerky and use his 6-8 frame and try to play above the basket he would be unstoppable. I am putting my money on Jabril. Jabril go work with Otto. Learn the forgotten 17 foot jump.
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Post by HometownHoya on Mar 24, 2012 20:55:13 GMT -5
I just had this convo earlier today with another Hoya fan. Definitely need one for when the O breaks down. I think DSR can do it, but a quicker cat as well. Markel can if his confidence is up. DSR has no lift from the video I have seen of him. It seems Markel get sat down when ever he tries to do it. That.s why I wonder is ti something that JTIII frowns upon. I think if Hollis would just go strong and quick being all herky-jerky and use his 6-8 frame and try to play above the basket he would be unstoppable. I am putting my money on Jabril. Jabril go work with Otto. Learn the forgotten 17 foot jump. Markel gets pulled when he recklessly drives to the basket, not every time he drives. A PG in our system needs to be pass first then take the shot if it is there. Unfortunately, most PGs are more of the Allen Iverson model then the Steve Nash. Hollis does go strong to the basket but he doesn't finish strong. While it keeps him out of foul trouble, it also keeps him from getting to the line on drives. Lift is also not required to drive...just to finish the drive in a crowd pleasing dunk. Any PG with ball control can put some english off the glass to get the ball in the hoop, if DSR has no vertical then floaters will be better then pullups. As much as I agree that Jabril could be another answer, he is the type of player that will finish with authority at the hoop. While a mid range game would be nice, I'd rather have him work on dishing from his drives and getting a consistent 3pter.
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Post by hoyatime on Mar 25, 2012 13:57:03 GMT -5
Thing is that every year this "is" is going to be next year.
Time to stop kissin' your sister...fight the war with what we got...get the big guy out of the high post...down under where the winners are gathered.
The P O and the back door pass just have not put us on the streetcar named Desire.
Go Hoyas!!
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 25, 2012 15:59:17 GMT -5
Thing is that every year this "is" is going to be next year. Time to stop kissin' your sister...fight the war with what we got...get the big guy out of the high post...down under where the winners are gathered. The P O and the back door pass just have not put us on the streetcar named Desire. Go Hoyas!! What an original post. Thanks for your brilliant insight.
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Post by hoyspaul on Mar 25, 2012 20:33:37 GMT -5
First time poster and 20+ year Hoya fan. Visiting Hoyatalk many times daily is part of the daily routine.
1. Love JT3's move to recruit long, interchangeable players 2. Concerned with lack of quickness in backcourt as dribble and kick teams will cause us defensive problems and also potentially cause foul trouble. A good big who can block shots can help mask this a bit but not entirely 3. Concerned with lack of depth in backcourt since with an injury to or foul trouble for Markel or Jabril things get awfully thin. These issues likely cost NC a legit shot at NCAA championship 4. Agree with those who say adding dribble drive threat creates additional offensive weapon that opponents have to plan against and, as shown in the NC State game, having a guy who can create can be the difference in a close game
Think Bowen and Moses could be the real wild cards for the club next year.
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Post by HometownHoya on Mar 25, 2012 20:52:57 GMT -5
First time poster and 20+ year Hoya fan. Visiting Hoyatalk many times daily is part of the daily routine. 1. Love JT3's move to recruit long, interchangeable players 2. Concerned with lack of quickness in backcourt as dribble and kick teams will cause us defensive problems and also potentially cause foul trouble. A good big who can block shots can help mask this a bit but not entirely 3. Concerned with lack of depth in backcourt since with an injury to or foul trouble for Markel or Jabril things get awfully thin. These issues likely cost NC a legit shot at NCAA championship4. Agree with those who say adding dribble drive threat creates additional offensive weapon that opponents have to plan against and, as shown in the NC State game, having a guy who can create can be the difference in a close game Think Bowen and Moses could be the real wild cards for the club next year. Great points, I especially agree with your 3rd point. Right now we have DSR, Jabril, and Markel as our true guards. Fortunately, if Hollis stays he will play a bit of 2. I also see Greg getting time at the 2 and if Bowen improves he may be another option at the 2. Really that leaves us thin at PG with Markel being the only true PG but Jabril has shown the ability to dribble drive (as this thread wishes). He only needs to put on more weight and practice decision making at the rim, a consistent 3 would also help open up the first step. Keeping up with his recruiting shows DSR to definitely be a scorer but not sure how much of a PG he is, will be interesting to see him used in Kenner (I think he will be the only PG on one of the G-town teams). Agree with Bowen and Moses as wild cards but I'd add Adams. Even if we don't get Noel, we have some real size inside. Moses is reportedly a pretty good shot blocker in his own right and has been at Georgetown for two years now. Adams will have gained from his extra year watching the offense and will hopefully be able to provide some valuable minutes down low. On the thread topic, I have always felt that a slasher (dribble-drive) player would help this offense immensely. I thought that Jabril would bring this dimension and still do. Hollis showed flashes this year and if stays another year, driving should be his new focus. Markel can drive but lost confidence mid year but needs to work not only on finishing but finding open shooters: be it Hollis/Greg/Otto/DSR at the 3, Otto/Hopkins/Nate/Noel/Moses (last 2 i hope) at the mid-range, or even Moses/Adams/Hopkins/Noel for short dumps. I mean look at those options, he needs to learn to pass from inside. BTW to anyone worried about losing Jason and Henry, don't worry. Jason's scoring and leadership was valuable but we have leaders on the team ready to jump into the role and points can usually be found, especially with the talent in our young players. Henry's play making was valuable, as was his finishing but he did have his flaws. If Nate can improve his offense he will be an excellent playmaker and we have other players on this team that can pass the ball, ie: Otto and Greg are excellent at passing into the post. Additionally, JTIII is an offensive master, he will find motion in is offense that will get scorers open to score. Finally, with the options we have (pointed out above), a dribble drive player would be very useful, we have a couple on the team but they need to improve not only their driving but mostly their decision making when they get to the next level.
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on Mar 25, 2012 21:43:49 GMT -5
And I don't care if he's under 6'1. If he has speed, quicks and can get to the cup I'm good. Creating havoc on D is good too. Hoyas need to create more scoring ops and get easy baskets in transition. It'll make the game so much easier. I'm preachin' to the choir though.
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Post by vamosalaplaya on Mar 25, 2012 22:10:26 GMT -5
Chris Wright was a ridiculous dribble drive player. People seem to forget how highly rated GU was - they'd won 9 out of 10 BE games and had an RPI of 5 in the country - when he went down with that injury. The team's offense collapsed and never recovered; there have certainly been comments in the press from this year's players about last year's offensive chemistry but the results were pretty good.
I don't see any other JT III player as coming close to Wright's ability to break down a defense off the dribble.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 26, 2012 9:11:18 GMT -5
Really that leaves us thin at PG with Markel being the only true PG but Jabril has shown the ability to dribble drive (as this thread wishes). He only needs to put on more weight and practice decision making at the rim, a consistent 3 would also help open up the first step. One thing Jabril does not need to do is put on more weight. [/RDF'd]
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 26, 2012 13:21:00 GMT -5
My answers:
1) Who was our best driver to the basket during JTII?
Chris Wright, undoubtedly. Jason and Jessie might have been a bit better at finishing, but actually creating the opportunity goes to Chris.
2) Do we need one to get the the final 4?
Hasn't this answer been objectively proven to be "no"? The best driver on our JTIII Final Four team was Jessie Sapp, and it wasn't an integral part of our offense.
I would welcome someone that can create off the dribble drive consistently. It'd add another great dimension to the offense and see no reason to shy away from it or any other source of offense (fast breaking, low post play, offensive rebounding, shooting, etc.).
But is it necessary? No. No one aspect of an offense is necessary. Teams win in all sorts of ways. That has been proven by history. You do need a well rounded team, but no one source of offense is guaranteed or necessary.
3) Is part of the offence?
It can be. Several of the basic movements of the offense have dribble drive choices -- our players just don't choose that way all that often. We've also run the high pick and roll quite a bit but don't seem to be great at it. It that personnel, coaching or both? I imagine both.
Are clear-out isolation plays part of the offense? Not often. Sometimes - usually low in the shot clock.
I'd love to have a quick guard who can break down the D. I think you can do it in the offense -- and I think it would work great in the offense, actually, as long as the player with that capability was a strong decision maker.
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Post by HometownHoya on Mar 26, 2012 14:03:34 GMT -5
Really that leaves us thin at PG with Markel being the only true PG but Jabril has shown the ability to dribble drive (as this thread wishes). He only needs to put on more weight and practice decision making at the rim, a consistent 3 would also help open up the first step. One thing Jabril does not need to do is put on more weight. [/RDF'd] Sorry didn't mean more "weight" in the traditional sense, like Greg and Hopkins need, I was meaning the he needs to use his weight better. Many noticed through the year that Jabril has been one of the first players of JTIII that will jump INTO contact. While I love a guard who seeks contact while he drives, he needs to work on using his weight to stay on track and finish/pass through Big East contact. EDIT: Agree entirely with what SF said. Is it needed to win it all? No. Does it add another option to our offense? Yes. Is our offense more deadly with more options? Yes. So to answer the thread question? No, we don't NEED a dribble drive player but a player who can drive will always be useful. That said, recruiting a player who can only drive would be a mistake. As we have seen teams overplay our passing and shut down our 3-pt shooters, a player that can only get to the hole would be as bad as Jeramiah Rivers on offense. Big East coaches will try to shut down your weaknesses, thats why the PrinceTown offense is excellent because it teaches players where to look for easy when a certain weakness is being shut down.
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DudeSlade
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Post by DudeSlade on Mar 26, 2012 14:51:01 GMT -5
When I came to HoyaTalk today, my plan was to create a new thread on the topic of what a team needs for sustained success, but this seems as good a place as any to discuss this.
What is the point of an offensive system? To get makeable shots. The easier, the more makeable, the better.
Throughout most of basketball history, the easiest, most makeable shots have been those closest to the basket. So the idea was to get as close to the basket as possible. There were two ways: 1) A strong low post big man presence. 2) A slasher (dribble-drive guy) who can create an easy shot for himself or, just as important, for others.
Every system from the Triangle to Jerry Sloan's Pick & Roll to Adelman's Motion to the Princeton/Georgetown is designed to create easy shots, ideally closer to the basket, and all of them function better with a dominant Big Man and a Slasher. If you look at almost every successful NCAA Tournament run and almost every successful NBA championship team, they have those two things. Seemingly, shooters and mid-range guys are not as important based on results, though, they obviously complement them well. The top 2 simply seem to be harder to find.
Look at the Final Four this year: Kentucky (Davis & Teague/Kidd-Gilchrist) Ohio State (Sullinger & Craft/Buford) Kansas (Robinson/Withey & Taylor) Louisville (Siva/Smith & Dieng - at least during this run from the BE Tourney through the NCAA)
As shown by that list, the Big Man is as important for defensive purposes as offensive (Davis, Dieng, Withey are clearly more important for defense.)
UConn's run was fueled by Kemba, but also the inside play of Alex Oriakhi & Roscoe Smith. Duke had Nolan Smith but remember how important that oaf Zoubek was to their chances. Butler had Shelvin Mack & Gordon Haywood, yes, but also Matt Howard down low.
In fact, I would argue the hardest thing to get in college and the most important is the Big Man. There simply are less available bodies like that, less players that exist, and they are harder to recruit and develop and more likely to leave early.
Now, the change that has happened in recent years is the increasing number of 3-point shooters and the valuing of that shot, so sometimes the most makeable shot is now the open 3-point shot that we see Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Steve Novak, or J.J. Reddick hit regularly. GU is very familiar with that with Jon Wallace, Austin Freeman, and Hollis Thompson. The key is to get as uncontested a shot as possible in as smooth a rhythm as possible, and that requires either a dribble-drive to get you open (Rondo to Allen, Lin to Novak), a big man to pass out of a double-team in the post (Howard to Lewis/Reddick, Shaq to Horry/Rice/Fisher/Bryant), or some sort of movement off screens and pop-outs to create that shot. Contested shots like Belmont was forced to take against us are much harder than uncontested like VCU against us.
Our offense, the Princeton offense was designed originally to compensate in some way for the lack of physical ability, let's be honest. The cutting, back-doors, curls, screens, pop-out 3 pointers, etc., are all ways to try to create makeable shots -- easy close-in looks off cuts/back-doors or open 3 pointers off screens and pop-outs. How often would Princeton have a dominant Big Man or a Slasher to create those easy shots? Not often. At GU, we've adapted, we can get the Big Man and we have various ways of setting up the low post -- Big Roy was very good in his last 2 years, as was Greg Monroe. We haven't traditionally had or at least utilized the Slasher, but our quick cuts and back-doors are designed to try to create the same action of going to the basket on the move to get an easy shot or set-up a big man for an easy shot.
I feel we can better utilize the focus defenses put on stopping that movement if we have a player that can then beat his man off the dribble following that cutting movement -- if it's tightly guarded, the potential help defense is following its own player on the cut and unable to help, leaving only a big man to help, which then leaves our Big Man open for an easy basket if he does come over. I would like to see JTIII incorporate a slashing/driving move following a back-door or cut into the offense more, almost like the first cut paved the way and the ball-handler followed through the hole -- fullback/running back style. I think this is a lot of what Jason early this year and as mentioned in this thread, it was very effective.
I think the biggest key to us becoming a top team next year isn't the Slasher, but is actually developing a Big Man, whether Noel, Lubick, Hopkins, or Adams (I don't think Moses is considered an offensive threat at this point, though his defense could be huge for us like Dieng for Louisville). We have players that have the ability to drive in Markel, Jabril, DSR, and Hollis, if they are willing to do it more often, but they don't have to be Kemba/Kidd-Glichrist good at it with the movement our offense creates naturally and if we have a big man step up.
This is what hurt us so much against NC State: when Henry went out, we stopped creating easy, makeable shots -- we had no inside presence and we didn't compensate by slashing or by trying to pass into cutters (something Henry always looked for) -- we settled for outside shots. For Georgetown to have continued success, like with any basketball team, I think ways of getting low post points and movement to the basket points (whether through driving or cuts as in our system) will be key. We just can't fall in love or settle with the outside shot.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Mar 26, 2012 19:40:01 GMT -5
Do we need one? No. Would we benefit from having one? Yes. Should we add one? yes.
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