Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Jun 8, 2018 15:20:58 GMT -5
My comment is not specifically about JG but about the Cavs as a whole. If you know basketball you know what I'm about to say to be true. It is really really difficult to play with LeBron James. It is really difficult to get into an offensive rhythm playing alongside James because he dominates the ball on 80-90% of their possessions for 20 of the 24 seconds. Hard to make offensive plays consistently not knowing when your going to get a touch (outside of Love) getting the ball kicked out to you in the corner with a defender closing quick & just 4 seconds on the shot clock. Outside of JR Smith and Kyle Korver who you want to ONLY catch & shoot, it limits the other players who can do a little bit more off the bounce or in the mid post. Great for LBJ's game but awful for a majority of his teammates.
While Iso James is getting big numbers, his teammates as a group are struggling to get into a rhythm because of his ball dominance. JR Smith is a shot fighter and has been hurting the Cavs on both sides of he ball all season long but for whatever reason Tyron Lue refuses to do anything about it during the playoffs.
In terms of JG, it's not a coincidence that his best playoff game was a game where he knew he would get touches and where they ran sets for him, outleted the ball to JG going up the sideline, got him touches in the mid and low post as well as the corner 3 off of swing passes by LBJ. So far this series JG is only standing in the corner hoping and waiting for a pass and when he does get a touch it's been with the shot clock about to expire and a long defender closing out quickly, limiting any play making options other than catch and shoot. Cavs had made it quite obvious that they absolutely don't want to play in transition as they are walking the ball up on all possessions and JG is at his best in an open court game, pushing the ball himself and finishing on the break.
Side Note: Tyron Lue has been awful in his decision making most of the season and playoffs as well
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jester
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Post by jester on Jun 8, 2018 15:41:50 GMT -5
I think those are all really valid points, Hoyas4Ever.
I just think he had the same limitations when he played with Westbrook and played better then, and in the opptys he does have minutes or open shots hes strugging. I do think he is better suited for a Boston team (past and current version) where everyone is a role player. But he had this in Orlando to an extent, and without a good PG also struggled. I think he has the ability/athleticism, but ultimately at this point he is a vet that needs to come off the bench and hit crucial shots in crucial moments. And he had shown that in BOS-CLE final games, but also has shown in this series (and over the course of his career) the inconsistency that he provides. To my point earlier, if he had a good 3pt shot, a la Ariza, or Otto, teams would be much more content with him and his production and lack of assertiveness at times.
Anyway, where do people think he ends up this next season? on a rebuilding/up and coming team or contending team as end of rotation player?
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Hoyas4Ever
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Jun 8, 2018 18:04:37 GMT -5
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Jun 8, 2018 18:04:37 GMT -5
I think those are all really valid points, Hoyas4Ever. I just think he had the same limitations when he played with Westbrook and played better then, and in the opptys he does have minutes or open shots hes strugging. I do think he is better suited for a Boston team (past and current version) where everyone is a role player. But he had this in Orlando to an extent, and without a good PG also struggled. I think he has the ability/athleticism, but ultimately at this point he is a vet that needs to come off the bench and hit crucial shots in crucial moments. And he had shown that in BOS-CLE final games, but also has shown in this series (and over the course of his career) the inconsistency that he provides. To my point earlier, if he had a good 3pt shot, a la Ariza, or Otto, teams would be much more content with him and his production and lack of assertiveness at times. Anyway, where do people think he ends up this next season? on a rebuilding/up and coming team or contending team as end of rotation player? Jester JG's role has been defined. He's a part time starter. A 3rd or 4th scorer in a starting unit or a bench spark plug. He is who he is. Ariza and Porter's games are better suited to be the now in vogue corner 3&D players that camp and wait for the kickouts. JG's game has never been that corner 3D guy. To play with LeBron you need to be that kind of player because of LBJ's ball dominance and usage rate. A good coach tries to put multiple players in position to be successful. I thought that the Cavs did a good job in Game 7 against the Celtics of getting the ball to JG in his favorite spots during his limited touches. Since that game he's been relegated back to the corner waiting for his opportunities from & 1 circuit/Rucker Park James. That goes for all the Cavs players (except Love) not just Green. To play with James you have to sacrifice a lot of your game to emphasize his game. Limited players like JR Smith and Korver fit well with James but if your multi skilled you have to make a lot of sacrifices and changes to your game to fit in and play with James.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jun 8, 2018 19:22:48 GMT -5
I think those are all really valid points, Hoyas4Ever. I just think he had the same limitations when he played with Westbrook and played better then, and in the opptys he does have minutes or open shots hes strugging. I do think he is better suited for a Boston team (past and current version) where everyone is a role player. But he had this in Orlando to an extent, and without a good PG also struggled. I think he has the ability/athleticism, but ultimately at this point he is a vet that needs to come off the bench and hit crucial shots in crucial moments. And he had shown that in BOS-CLE final games, but also has shown in this series (and over the course of his career) the inconsistency that he provides. To my point earlier, if he had a good 3pt shot, a la Ariza, or Otto, teams would be much more content with him and his production and lack of assertiveness at times. Anyway, where do people think he ends up this next season? on a rebuilding/up and coming team or contending team as end of rotation player? Jester JG's role has been defined. He's a part time starter. A 3rd or 4th scorer in a starting unit or a bench spark plug. He is who he is. Ariza and Porter's games are better suited to be the now in vogue corner 3&D players that camp and wait for the kickouts. JG's game has never been that corner 3D guy. To play with LeBron you need to be that kind of player because of LBJ's ball dominance and usage rate. A good coach tries to put multiple players in position to be successful. I thought that the Cavs did a good job in Game 7 against the Celtics of getting the ball to JG in his favorite spots during his limited touches. Since that game he's been relegated back to the corner waiting for his opportunities from & 1 circuit/Rucker Park James. That goes for all the Cavs players (except Love) not just Green. To play with James you have to sacrifice a lot of your game to emphasize his game. Limited players like JR Smith and Korver fit well with James but if your multi skilled you have to make a lot of sacrifices and changes to your game to fit in and play with James. Hoyas4Ever, I'm wondering where you think LBJ would be the best fit next year assuming he decides to leave the Cavs. Certainly not Philly or Houston based on the above. I also wonder if you think his game has changed since he was with the Heat. There was no way he could have been that ball dominant playing with Wade and Bosh, or even the last two years playing with Kyrie (although maybe that was why Kyrie wanted to leave). That makes me think that maybe he alters his game based upon his supporting cast.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 8, 2018 20:35:58 GMT -5
Any Hoya fan who blames James for how awful Jeff and his fellow Cavalier teammates are playing has to take a step back. LBJ ends up dominating the ball because his teammates have been unreliable, even when he has been off the floor. Almost none of them can create their own shot and the majority of them struggle to hit open jumpshots, so it doesn't matter what the seconds are on the shot clock when James gives up the ball. And almost none of these guys were playing stellar ball BEFORE they ended up in Cleveland. Now this is not to say that the way LBJ hogs the rock at times is ideal or the easiest style to play within, but much of it is happening out of necessity. When James didn't play like that against Indiana in the first round the Cavs almost lost. James is doing all he can in almost very area to put the Cavs in a position to win all the while being efficient when doing so. His teammates just don't bring enough firepower most nights to beat a team like Golden State.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jun 8, 2018 20:58:17 GMT -5
Any Hoya fan who blames James for how awful Jeff and his fellow Cavalier teammates are playing has to take a step back. LBJ ends up dominating the ball because his teammates have been unreliable, even when he has been off the floor. Almost none of them can create their own shot and the majority of them struggle to hit open jumpshots, so it doesn't matter what the seconds are on the shot clock when James gives up the ball. And almost none of these guys were playing stellar ball BEFORE they ended up in Cleveland. Now this is not to say that the way LBJ hogs the rock at times is ideal or the easiest style to play within, but much of it is happening out of necessity. When James didn't play like that against Indiana in the first round the Cavs almost lost. James is doing all he can in almost very area to put the Cavs in a position to win all the while being efficient when doing so. His teammates just don't bring enough firepower most nights to beat a team like Golden State. As a Hoya fan you should know that when you have a bunch of players that can't create for themselves you go to more motion not more iso...its too late to change offenses at this stage but Bron Bron is as much of the problem as anyone for their woes.....imo
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Hoyas4Ever
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Jun 8, 2018 23:20:34 GMT -5
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Jun 8, 2018 23:20:34 GMT -5
Jester JG's role has been defined. He's a part time starter. A 3rd or 4th scorer in a starting unit or a bench spark plug. He is who he is. Ariza and Porter's games are better suited to be the now in vogue corner 3&D players that camp and wait for the kickouts. JG's game has never been that corner 3D guy. To play with LeBron you need to be that kind of player because of LBJ's ball dominance and usage rate. A good coach tries to put multiple players in position to be successful. I thought that the Cavs did a good job in Game 7 against the Celtics of getting the ball to JG in his favorite spots during his limited touches. Since that game he's been relegated back to the corner waiting for his opportunities from & 1 circuit/Rucker Park James. That goes for all the Cavs players (except Love) not just Green. To play with James you have to sacrifice a lot of your game to emphasize his game. Limited players like JR Smith and Korver fit well with James but if your multi skilled you have to make a lot of sacrifices and changes to your game to fit in and play with James. Hoyas4Ever, I'm wondering where you think LBJ would be the best fit next year assuming he decides to leave the Cavs. Certainly not Philly or Houston based on the above. I also wonder if you think his game has changed since he was with the Heat. There was no way he could have been that ball dominant playing with Wade and Bosh, or even the last two years playing with Kyrie (although maybe that was why Kyrie wanted to leave). That makes me think that maybe he alters his game based upon his supporting cast. If LeBron really wants to continue to improve his game, will humble himself, allow himself to be really coached, play in a team first style, and extend his career to hopefully play with his son like he says he wants to, LBJ should "take his talents to the San Antonio Riverwalk" and allow Coach Pop to really coach him. Coach Pop would limit his minutes to around 30 and force him to take nights off to extend his career while really competing for championships. Don't be a coward and stay in the NBA least just so he can continue to extend his Finals appearances. Head to the Alamo! Spurs have the pieces that fit James's game but the style of play allows them to compete as a team with a motion offense and great ball movement with their variations of the Princeton style. During the Heatles era, I think LBJ started slowly becoming Iso James especially during the last playoff run when Wade was hurt. We saw during those 4 years how the team transitioned to fit his Iso game. Bosh went from one of the best players in the league that was a beast in the post that can also score in all 3 areas to a catch and shoot player relegated to standing around the perimeter waiting for the kickout or swing pass.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Jun 8, 2018 23:46:37 GMT -5
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Jun 8, 2018 23:46:37 GMT -5
Any Hoya fan who blames James for how awful Jeff and his fellow Cavalier teammates are playing has to take a step back. LBJ ends up dominating the ball because his teammates have been unreliable, even when he has been off the floor. Almost none of them can create their own shot and the majority of them struggle to hit open jumpshots, so it doesn't matter what the seconds are on the shot clock when James gives up the ball. And almost none of these guys were playing stellar ball BEFORE they ended up in Cleveland. Now this is not to say that the way LBJ hogs the rock at times is ideal or the easiest style to play within, but much of it is happening out of necessity. When James didn't play like that against Indiana in the first round the Cavs almost lost. James is doing all he can in almost very area to put the Cavs in a position to win all the while being efficient when doing so. His teammates just don't bring enough firepower most nights to beat a team like Golden State. In no way am I blaming LBJ for Jeff Green's poor play or short comings. Truth be told that's the "Splash Brothers" fault for completely revolutionizing how the game is played. Now the 3 ball is the most important skill needed to not just thrive but survive in today's NBA. What I am saying is that the P&R forcing the switch and then watching LBJ dribble the shot clock out to under 5 seconds before either attacking, shooting the J, or passing to a teammate at the last second forcing them all into catch and only shoot players. No way any one can say that Iguodala and Draymond Green are better perimeter shooters than all the Cavs "role players" but because of the constant ball movement and early attacking offense in the shot clock, and trust from the 3 super star players gives them the confidence to be triple threats and knock down the 3 ball or get to the rim off the dribble. In terms of the Indiana series in the 1st round, your statement is wrong. The Cavs absolutely played the LBJ Iso game throughout that series and the entire playoffs.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jun 8, 2018 23:58:19 GMT -5
What I see with all that standing around and waiting out the shot clock til it hits 5 seconds for a catch and shoot is a great opportunity for a great perimeter shooter (46%) to have a long NBA career. The Cavs could have used a Marcus if he can translate his junior year shot to the NBA. Marcus can defend like or better than how the Cavs were defending tonight.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jun 9, 2018 0:18:20 GMT -5
What I have noticed is that it is tough being a team mate of Lebron. Not that he hogs the ball, but he does not allow his team mates to grow and thrive. You can't just dish to another player with 3-5 seconds with so little time to create or react.
If I were Green, I would want to get out from under the James' looming shadow. Not a fit for our Boy, Green.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Jun 9, 2018 0:24:15 GMT -5
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Jun 9, 2018 0:24:15 GMT -5
What I have noticed is that it is tough being a team mate of Lebron. Not that he hogs the ball, but he does not allow his team mates to grow and thrive. You can't just dish to another player with 3-5 seconds with so little time to create or react. If I were Green, I would want to get out from under the James' looming shadow. Not a fit for our Boy, Green. EXACTLY..you hit it on the nail!!!
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Jun 9, 2018 8:33:50 GMT -5
Let’s be real. Jeff has as much talent as anyone, but he simply doesn’t have that killer instinct. He’s had the opportunity to take a lead role on many teams and has struggled to do so. Jeff’s a good player...but his mindset is what stops him from being great. I am still scratching my head about the Ohio St. game. To date, I have never seen a player go from so dominating ...to so passive in a FF game.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jun 9, 2018 9:54:29 GMT -5
Let’s be real. Jeff has as much talent as anyone, but he simply doesn’t have that killer instinct. He’s had the opportunity to take a lead role on many teams and has struggled to do so. Jeff’s a good player...but his mindset is what stops him from being great. I am still scratching my head about the Ohio St. game. To date, I have never seen a player go from so dominating ...to so passive in a FF game. So true. Cojones...
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jun 9, 2018 11:24:10 GMT -5
Let’s be real. Jeff has as much talent as anyone, but he simply doesn’t have that killer instinct. He’s had the opportunity to take a lead role on many teams and has struggled to do so. Jeff’s a good player...but his mindset is what stops him from being great. I am still scratching my head about the Ohio St. game. To date, I have never seen a player go from so dominating ...to so passive in a FF game. This really could be said for all of JT3's stars that became high draft picks.
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s4hoyas
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Post by s4hoyas on Jun 9, 2018 12:02:16 GMT -5
I love JG, but I do agree that at times he's too passive/not assertive enough on the offensive end...with Cleveland I think it has alot to do with LJ who dominates the ball and doesn't set others up very much...as for the FF game, Jeff was either 3/5 or 4/5 (I think it was 4/5) from the field...OSt had a player who was a very good/exceptional defender who kind of limited Jeff's opportunities...could he have been more assertive anyway...probably...but IMO we lost because Dajuan Summers was 0 for 10 from the field...he goes just 3 for 10 and we win...
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s4hoyas
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Post by s4hoyas on Jun 9, 2018 12:03:14 GMT -5
And both those guys were outstanding in the Elite 8 game against UNC the game before...
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Jun 9, 2018 12:23:04 GMT -5
I love JG, but I do agree that at times he's too passive/not assertive enough on the offensive end...with Cleveland I think it has alot to do with LJ who dominates the ball and doesn't set others up very much...as for the FF game, Jeff was either 3/5 or 4/5 (I think it was 4/5) from the field...OSt had a player who was a very good/exceptional defender who kind of limited Jeff's opportunities...could he have been more assertive anyway...probably...but IMO we lost because Dajuan Summers was 0 for 10 from the field...he goes just 3 for 10 and we win... What seems to be forgotten was that Jeff Green was in foul trouble pretty much from the tip including the game changing horrible block call on him when he clearly stepped in and took a text book charge on Greg Oden. That gave Green his 4th but more importantly would have been Oden's 5th foul ending his afternoon early. With the way Hibbert was dominating that day and Ohio St. not having anyone else to even challenge him, Hoyas might have won that game going away at the end. Back to JG performance in that FF game. It's hard sometimes to get a rhythm when your constantly in foul trouble. Yes he could have been more aggressive. I do agree that a couple of made shots by Summers and maybe that team is the National Champs.
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Post by MoHoyas on Jun 9, 2018 22:35:01 GMT -5
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Jun 10, 2018 16:31:26 GMT -5
Very interesting article and quite surely on the money. BUt unfortunately Roy didn't want to be interviewed. My question would be does he even wish to play in the league anymore? I find it hard to believe there are not veteran minimum spots for him...one of his former teammates noted that the stiff from Europe , Bojan? has a job. Perhaps riding the bench for $3M is something Roy does NOT want to do.
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Jun 10, 2018 20:11:21 GMT -5
My guess is that Roy didn’t take a spot on the alumni team because he still has nba aspirations. Same with Hollis and Henry. Once you accept a spot playing for free, it sends the message that you are done competing at the highest levels.
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