The "Princeton Offense" in 1989 & today

[centercourt400s]

Ok, so this is sort of a random question that came to me regarding the "Princeton Offense".

Back in March of 1989 the Hoyas were matched up against Princeton in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. We were a #1 seed and Princeton was a lowly 16th seed but they damn near beat us, losing 50-49 on a free throw by Alonzo Mourning with 23 seconds left and then two huge blocks in the last 5 seconds, also by Alonzo. The real story of the game was that the Hoyas were unable to stop the Princeton offense and the myriad backdoor cuts that led to layups over and over again. I remember screaming in frustration as, again and again, a Princeton player took a perfect backdoor bounce pass and layed it in with a Hoya defender always a half a step behind. My frustration as a fan was that the Hoyas couldn't seemingly adjust to stop that play and only escaped with a win because of Alonzo's end game heroics.

Now, our modern day Hoyas run the "Princeton" backdoor plays frequently but never with the same result as we saw against us in the '89 game. We may get one or two backdoor layups per game but rarely more than that. So my question becomes: Was the '89 game the result of a defensive team that was unable to adjust over the course of a whole game to a tactic that was ripping them up? Was Thompson too stubborn to try adjustments believing (rightly so I guess in the end) that our system would win out over theirs? Or was it simply an example of the Princeton offense being played to perfection in such a manner that it could not really be stopped by anyone?

And this leads to a follow up question: Are today's Hoyas simply not skilled enough in our "Princeton-like" offense to produce results even close to what Princeton did that night or was that a just glimpse of offensive perfection that may never be attained by any team ever again?

[1991]

We play a much different variant of what Princeton played. We don't try to shorten the game nearly as much as they did.

[lichoya68]

AS COACH HAS ALWAYS SAID we do the georgetown modified princeton offense.. still center and point forward very involved and passing key BUT he also says we adopt to our players yup like long lanky athletic quick lots of depth HMMMMM full court presss a little so far no HECK ALL THE TIME SO FAR. yup this is the team and coach does adapt to the talent and we got some great young talent BATTLE TESTED IN BEIJING and ready for a short trip to hawaii who said on here the guys would have trouble traveling and being away from home
?? NOT go hoyas make some noise on monday on national tv vs one heck of a good team yup WE WILL SEEEEEEEEEEEE

[centercourt400s]

Certainly the pace and specific plays and a bunch of other things are different between now and then but still I can see 15 - 20 times a game (estimate) that we've got the ball around the elbow looking for cutters to get a backdoor pass to. The pass actually gets thrown about 6 or 7 times a game but only two or three result in a layup. If the primary option is the backdoor pass in those situations, than something is up because it doesn't seem to work most of the time. In the '89 game it seemed to work for Princeton most of the time and the question remains were we defensing it badly then or did they achieve perfection, and what does that say about how we run similar plays today? Can we ever hope to get to that level or is our current success rate at backdoors what we are looking to achieve?

[chep3]

We achieved that level of success in the Princeton in January 2006. But, yes, I think the reason it worked that perfectly was a clash of styles. Our defense back in the Big John era was a get inside of your shirt defense. That overplay and aggressiveness could be used against us with the backdoor cut. In fact, I want to say that whenever we play Duke there are a boatload of layups off backdoors because they extend the defense a lot farther than other teams. I think most teams sag off us which limits backdoor layups bu opens up other opportunities.

[aleutianhoya]

For sure, the pace of play is different, as are some of the sets. But the biggest difference, I think, is the type of pressure defense those Georgetown teams employed. Obviously, back door cuts work best when players are denying every pass. I think that's why you've seen a good deal of back-door success against Duke teams over the past few years. And I hope we see more of it this coming Wednesday night!

[Elvado]

That game, on St. Patrick's day, was infuriating because Big John (and I know this may be heretical) played right into their hands. We chased them around like greyhounds after the rabbit as they scored layups at the end of the clock.

I was screaming at my television for him to deploy Dikembe as a goaltender and stop the madness. Alas, he did not and we all lost several years off our lives.

[RDF]

I'm still trying to figure out why Georgetown didn't throw intense full court pressure and trapping at halfcourt all game? Idea is to speed the game up and remember it was a 45 second clock back then--so they could run almost a minute off clock in a possession.

Reason it doesn't work as effectively regarding backdoor cuts--the key to entire offense is to have a 4/5 man like a Kit Mueller or Jeff Green. As good of a passer as Greg Monroe was, he was not a serious threat as a jumpshooter at ft line area--so the defense could sag on him and Monroe was still successful as a passer but not as easy as it was for guys who were legit triple threats in that area of court. Last year's team had Nate/Hank at that spot as most effective but Nate wasn't a threat shooting either.

It's why the offense is best utilized when you have a roster like III has now--a lot of interchangeable players who have size. Easier for Bowman/Owens to operate backdoor play then Freeman/Wright because you are going big wing to big wing and can see more/make better passes/finish at rim. Little guys can make cut but how many times did we see a little guard get swatted on nice execution only due to their lack of size?

Also--a lot of teams today just zone it-make you hit shots from outside and if you are, then they'll come out and play man--which opens up the backcuts. If a Princeton team is cold--why play man and create movement/scoring options for them--sit in zone and let them throw up bricks until they hit a shot.

[bigelephant]

I think the PO operates best when a lesser team is playing a much better team. The element of surprise is a big factor. That's what happened in the GU-Princeton game. But now the PO and variants thereof is no longer a surprise, especially in the BE which has gotten to know it so well over the past few years. The BE coaches have been able to make the necessary adjustment to counteract this defensively. If we are away and cold from the outside then the defense of the PO becomes much easier. When we are hitting 3's all over the place then backdoors come easier. Remember, now the PO variants include good outside shooting and backdoors and whatever else you can come up with on offense. That's why it's so important to have other options on O such as good play down on the blocks by the big guys, a few pick and rolls, and jumpers. You have to stay one step ahead of your opponent. The game is always changing, Also it doesn't hurt to have a tenacious D on the other end.

Surprise is a big factor and I don't know if anyone is surprised by this offense anymore.

[guru]

Nov 18, 2011 13:42:51 GMT -5 bigelephant said:

I think the PO operates best when a lesser team is playing a much better team. The element of surprise is a big factor. That's what happened in the GU-Princeton game. But now the PO and variants thereof is no longer a surprise, especially in the BE which has gotten to know it so well over the past few years. The BE coaches have been able to make the necessary adjustment to counteract this defensively. If we are away and cold from the outside then the defense of the PO becomes much easier. When we are hitting 3's all over the place then backdoors come easier. Remember now the PO variants include good outside shooting and backdoors and whatever else you can come up with on offense. That's why it's so important to have other options on O such as good play down on the blocks by the big guys, a few pick and rolls, and jumpers. You have to stay one step ahead of your opponent. The game is always changing, Also it doesn't hurt to have a tenacious D on the other end.

Surprise is a big factor and I don't know if anyone is surprised by this offense anymore.

Given the fact that his son played at Princeton and had graduated only the previous spring, the offense should not have been a surprise to JT Jr. I think he was overconfident and didn't bother preparing his team well for it - and it almost bit him in the ass.

[JB5]

At that time, Princeton was almost alone in playing that sort of offense and played at a significantly slower tempo than anyone else making it tough to prepare if you hadn't been on the court against it before. The Princeton teams in the late 80s were also pretty good, regularly upsetting teams from power conferences. No way they should have been a 16 that year, but they got hit with some reverse elitism that pretty much locked the Ivy League into a 16.

[bigelephant]

Guru - I think the surprise is how good the execution was and you are right about overconfident

[CO_Hoya]

The Princeton offense works just as well today as it did in 1989 - just ask Kentucky (link). And it's not like Kentucky hadn't seen a Princeton-style team - Vanderbilt has been running a modified PO for years.

[1991]

Not just overconfident. There were also rumors that some of the GU players were almost too hungover to play.

[centercourt400s]

I'm pretty sure that Pops was p*ssed off at his #1 seeded team being embarrassed (and boy was it ever embarrassing watching those layups and hearing the crowd erupt in disbelief at yet another one when everyone in the arena knew it was coming again) and dug his heels in to stick with his game plan. And it worked... barely.
I do think that today's defenses have picked up on how to defend the basic Princeton. I also wonder how much more effective we could be if Nate could hit two or three 15 footers per game as an option while looking for the cutters. That would open up things quite a lot I would think.

[bmartin]

Wednesday night, Oregon State coached by Craig Robinson Princeton '83, beat Hofstra with pf/c Joe Burton recording 11 assists, 10 rebounds, but only 5 points. It's hard to imagine a big man doing that except in a Princeton- style offense.

[RDF]

Nov 18, 2011 15:19:45 GMT -5 centercourt400s said:

I'm pretty sure that Pops was p*ssed off at his #1 seeded team being embarrassed (and boy was it ever embarrassing watching those layups and hearing the crowd erupt in disbelief at yet another one when everyone in the arena knew it was coming again) and dug his heels in to stick with his game plan. And it worked... barely.
I do think that today's defenses have picked up on how to defend the basic Princeton. I also wonder how much more effective we could be if Nate could hit two or three 15 footers per game as an option while looking for the cutters. That would open up things quite a lot I would think.

Seeing how those Hoyas rolled everyone in BET that year, it's funny to say this--but Princeton game changed all of the momentum they had coming out of NYC and Hoyas didn't play one complete game in NCAA's. ND gave them trouble in 2nd round, NC State gave them a game, and then Duke loss which ended Pops dominance. Didn't start Duke's--they'd been to Final Four in 86 (title game loss to Louisville) and year before where they lost to Kansas, but it started Laettner's run of 4 for 4 and 3 title games in that span.

Princeton was a lot more frustrating to play with 45 second clock. Especially if they got an offensive rebound or foul was called after playing 30-40 good seconds of defense. It still stuns me when media claims they play "great defense". Their defense was milking the clock on offense and Georgetown basically won the game within 2 feet of hoop with Zo on putbacks and easy hoops due to horrific defense/rebounding ability. Pops coached a bad game imo--and it's just annoying that very things most of us wanted him to utilize against them--other teams do against his son who runs similar system.

[bicentennial]

The real difference between the Princeton Today and the Princeton of 1989 was that 45 second thing. If you look at Hoya Prospectus analysis of most teams and the georgetown teams that run Princeton well, the scoring percentage in the final 5-7 seconds of the shot clock is exceedingly high compared to most other offenses. The extra 10 seconds on the shot clock allowed even more time for the players, guard and small forward types to move around the taller post players who could pass them the ball as they flashed to the hoop. Of course Princeton did not have an answer to a dominant center but if Princeton could deny the entry pass to the center then it was hard to get points with their defense. The offense now takes advantage of both the princeton high percentage time at the end of the shot clock when most defenders are tired of chasing their man and allowing mental lapses and the first 7 seconds of the shot clock when fast break layups are available. With the additional turn over opportunities of the Press, there is reason to hope this offense could have one of our highest shot percentage offenses ever, and if the rebounding continues to limit second chance points for opponents the defense could similarly be very good.

[SaxaCD]

That was also one of Princeton's best teams of that era. They got that seed because of their league, but they were well better than that. They also were NOT a poor rebounding or defensive team, they were good at both. Sure Zo dominated on putbacks, etc, but c'mon, it was Alonzo Mourning. I also don't think that game did squat to dent the Hoya's momentum, just as the SMU game during the title run didn't do anything to momentum. A twisted ankle did that in a later game, for sure, however.

[lichoya68]

princeton shmichton JUST PLAY and dont matter WHAT THE OFFENSE !!!!!the d will be the hoyas........... defense this year!!!!!!!!!.. CREATE HAVOC YUP ..........and just maybe ala curry kilpatrick ......HOYA PARANOIA MAY JUST BE COMING BACK!!!!!!! go hoyas PRESSSSSS EMMMMMMMMM UPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP beat kansas and we will see !!!!!