? for old heads

[idhoya]

What were the Hoyas like in the days of the ECAC once Big John got there?

[SirSaxa]

Oct 29, 2011 23:23:19 GMT -5 idhoya said:

What were the Hoyas like in the days of the ECAC once Big John got there?

The year BEFORE JT arrived (1972), the team was 3-23.
During the next few years until the start of the BE, their records were:
72/73 12-14
73/74 13-13
74/75 18-10 First appearance in NCAA Tournament in 30 years.
75/76 21-7 NCAA 1st Rd
76/77 19-9 NIT
77/78 23-8 NIT
78/79 24-5 NCAA
79/80 26-6 (First year of BE) NCAA -missed 1st Final Four by one pt.

So you can see they were on a sharply upward swing in terms of W-L.
But if you are asking what they were like? What kind of team was JT building?
Vastly different from the prior years -- not that we were chronically 3-23. In 1970 the team finished 18-6 and went to the NIT (when it meant a lot because only 16 teams went to the NCAA!), where they lost 83-82 to an LSU team that featured superstar (and I mean super-duper star!) Pete Maravich, 83-82. Hoyas were good, and overwhelmingly white.

The team suffered a rapid decline after that. When JT arrived, he brought 5 DC kids with him, 4 of whom were black. 3 played for him in HS and were truly awesome recruits, especially Merlin Wilson C, 6'9 and Jonathan Smith, G 6'1. The talent jump from the prior year was just incredible. I'm pretty sure those two guys were starters from day 1. Wilson was a hyper-athletic, energetic, thin-wiry interior force, especially on the boards and on D. Smith was the quickest guard in GU history -- kind of a much earlier version of AI (OK, not THAT quick, but relative to prior years and opposing teams). Home games were played at McDonough, so it was easy for students to make every game - and we did.

Suddenly, GU Basketball was REALLY exciting once again. How exciting? Well, late that first year, Fordham came to GU. Digger Phelps was the up and coming superstar coach before he went to ND. Place was packed. Who walks in to watch our game? BILL RUSSELL! At GU?!!? to watch the Hoyas? at the time, that was unbelievable. Team put on an awesome game, Smith ran Fordham ragged, and GU won -- big upset. McDonough was rocking.

If Merlin Wilson had not had so many back injuries, you would hear his name in the company of Pat, Zo and Deke. I think he still leads GU in Rebounds per game. There was a string of truly outstanding guards, staring with Smith, then overlapping with Derrick Jackson, who overlapped with Johnnie Duren, who overlapped with Sleepy Floyd.

GU became super athletic, big, fast, and intimidating. JT was, as you know, not just an outstanding Defensive coach, but far and away the BEST defensive coach in the country. GU would press for 40 minutes. Then they'd fall back into Man, or a variety of zones, sometimes switching D's on each possession. National commentators and press were dumbfounded when the Hoyas started showing up in the NCAA tournament... basically thinking we were a joke, they'd never heard of us, what's a Hoya, etc. But by the end of that first decade, all that changed.

The one other outstanding player to mention (that I can think of) was Craig Shelton -- HS teammate of Johnnie Duren, and a 6'7 jumping jack. Those two guys led GU to our first elite eight appearance in 1980, first year of the new BE. We had a 14 pt. lead over Iowa in the second half of our Elite Eight game, and ended up losing by one pt. Sleepy was a sophomore on that team. It was a Devastating loss because we were so damn good that year and should have been in the Final Four. AND... Craig (Big Sky) Shelton and Johnnie (Ba Ba) Duren departed as seniors. But what we did not know at the time was that 18 months later, Patrick Ewing would arrive on the Hilltop.

GU established a GREAT reputation in the '70s, outstanding athleticism and Defense. And a mostly black team (which led to tons of criticism of this little, white Catholic college bringing in all the big, "bad" black kids, many from inner city backgrounds. But JT - from the beginning -- emphasized education and was the first coach in America to have an academic coach on the team, Mary Fenlon. It worked. Over 90% of ballers graduated.

Of course, if you REALLY want to know more, you should read THE VAULT - that truly oustanding book DFW put together.
www.hoyabasketball.com/vault.htm

You can also check out the History section of HOYASAXA.COM
www.hoyabasketball.com/index.htm

For me personally, all I can say is the arrival of JT in my senior year firmly established a devoted loyalty to GU Hoops... because the basketball was so exciting, the players terrific, the commitment to excellence unwavering and all the kids graduated. Everything you'd ever want for your school's basketball team. JT was the best thing that ever happened to GU Hoops. I used to say the second best thing was the arrival of Pat Ewing. But now I've moved him to 3rd, to be replaced by JT3. Why? Because as awesome as Patrick was, he could only play 4 years. JT3 has rebuilt the program from the dregs and is on his way to far more success in the future, if only the admin gets behind the BB program. This is his 8th year and I am looking forward to more excitement.

I hope that answers your question ID. And I'm sure many more folks (LIC?) want to chime in with their perspectives. One day, ID, you and I will sit down over a couple of beers at MSG, DC, or someplace and swap stories. It would be a blast!

[Ranch Dressing]

To me, the program's ascension to the top was the best part. The most exciting time in my mind were those late 1970s teams with Duren, Shelton, and a young Sleepy Floyd. We were on the rise, taking the college basketball scene by storm, and quite literally transforming the sport.

Ewing, obviously, was the recruiting piece that put the program over the top, but the groundwork for the 1984 championship team had been laid by JT the decade prior. The climb to the top was an incredibly exciting and fulfilling ride as a fan, and this despite the absolutely crushing heart break of the 1980 Elite 8 (which I still consider to be the single darkest day in Hoya hoops history - many many tears shed after that loss by Hoya fans, young and old - still gives me the shivers to think about it).

After the Esh debacle, when the program was down and needed to be re-built, I thought the Hoyas recaptured a hint of that same kind of mojo in the 2004-2007 time frame. We've fallen a little flat since then.

Hopefully, the new crop of recruits can re-spark a climb toward success. Many off-the-court challenges ahead, though, with the conference turmoil.

[DallasHoya]

I remember watching GU playing Syracuse at Manley Field House in the spring of 1979, in the one of the last ECAC games before the Big East officially started. The game was at Cole Field House of all places, and Syracuse came in highly ranked (top 5 maybe?) and featured the Louie (Orr)and (Roosevelt) Bouie show - two big guys who everyone figured would dominate GU inside. JT's defense turned the game around and GU won, giving us all an inkling of what was coming the years ahead.

Sleepy Floyd was a freshman that year. As good as Duren and Shelton were, it was Sleepy who put GU over the edge on the national stage.

[DanMcQ]

Agree pretty much with the last 2 posters - the core of the team from 76 were the guys that propelled the Hoyas into the national discussion. I still remember the look of disbelief on Bob Knight's eyes as a freshman Eric Floyd torched his team for 28 (I think, other can correct - it would have been mid-high 30s if the 3 point line existed) at the Cap Center in an early season December game. That's when I knew we had a special team brewing. The ensuing Cole Field House ECAC finals win over SU cemented it and was the precursor to both the rivalry and the birth of the Big East.

That 79-80 team was as good as any of the teams in the Final Four that year and could have won a national championship. Their defense really only let them down once and that's where the run ended.

[idhoya]

Thanx Saxa. I did read the vault a few years ago that DFW put together and it is fantastic! hat said, I just wanted some diff perspectives from cats who were there. I was a baby when Big John arrived, so by the time I started following it was '80 and I was 9. My memories of the Iowa game are vague, but I realize it was a heartbreaking loss to Lute's boys. I have a friend from Iowa and he throws it at me from time to time, but I remind him of the years after.

[SSHoya]

This game must be mentioned as one of the pivotal moments in GU basketball history, great writeup by casualhoya:

www.casualhoya.com/2011/1/7/1920876/the-shot-heard-around-the-world-a-look-back-at-the-georgetown-west

Note who was playing guard for WVU. Was there as a member of the pep band which was in its first year of existence, IIRC.

Another story I've always heard about the program when JT Jr. was recruiting local black student-athletes from DC. Some older white alums apparently had problem with it and sought meeting with Father Healy about why the new coach wouldn't recruit white players. Father Healy reportedly told them if they could demonstrate that they had asked Georgetown when the team was virtually all white that they had raised a similar complaint about the failure of Georgetown to recruit any black players, then he'd listen to them. Otherwise, they were politely invited to depart his office. Have any other "oldtimers" heard this story or is it a case of never letting the truth stand in the way of a good story!?

[SirSaxa]

Oct 30, 2011 12:22:33 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

This game must be mentioned as one of the pivotal moments in GU basketball history, great writeup by casualhoya:

www.casualhoya.com/2011/1/7/1920876/the-shot-heard-around-the-world-a-look-back-at-the-georgetown-west

Note who was playing guard for WVU. Was there as a member of the pep band which was in its first year of existence, IIRC.

Another story I've always heard about the program when JT Jr. was recruiting local black student-athletes from DC. Some older white alums apparently had problem with it and sought meeting with Father Healy about why the new coach wouldn't recruit white players. Father Healy reportedly told them if they could demonstrate that they had asked Georgetown when the team was virtually all white that they had raised a similar complaint about the failure of Georgetown to recruit any black players, then he'd listen to them. Otherwise, they were politely invited to depart his office. Have any other "oldtimers" heard this story or is it a case of never letting the truth stand in the way of a good story!?

I've heard that story SS, but I have no idea if it's true.

[bigelephant]

SirSaxa and Ranch pretty well nailed it. It was like it was.

[2ndRyan]

SirSaxa enjoyed your memories. Esp. appreciate the props for Jon Smith. Merlin gets remembered for his rebounding record, but Smith really did seem like the AI of his day.

Two other players from the latter half of the Seventies that deserve mention are Al Dutch and Eric Smith, both small forwards. Dutch's role as one of the first nationally visible players landed by JT has been mentioned in the History Project and by Casual Hoya. E. Smith was the MVP on the 81-82 team that included future NBA stars Pat Ewing freshman and Eric Floyd, senior.

One small nit- the Fordham game you speak of couldn't have included Digger as coach. He left Rose Hill in the spring of '71 after one season for South Bend. He rode a player named Charlie Yelverton deep into the NCAA's and left for what probably proved to be greener pastures.

[wildhoya]

Was there as a member of the pep band which was in its first year of existence, IIRC.

The Fred Webb Band handled those duties for some games in 1973-1974, I think.

[lichoya68]

saxa and ranch GREAT reporting on wonderful times in hoyas history one story i think i remember that coach sat out jonathan smith out a critical game i think for one game no reason of course but maybe later it came out it was for ACADEMICS yup mary fenlon ruled with and iron hand.. anyone else remember that it was some post season game me thinks anyone else remember go that deflated basketball in big johns office wasnt just as symbol it was REAL and meaningful pss in that nit game i believe we held pete maravich who led the world in scoring to his lowest point total ever EVER even tho we lost a little guard mike laska guarded him for most of the game AH THE MEMORIES but lets keep this going FOR GENERATIONS TO COME g o hoyas 1951 lets get it DONE..

[lichoya68]

THE RADIO ANNOUNCER IN FROM THE EARLY YEARS FOR BIG JOHN??? WASH BBALL HALL OF FAMER RICH CHOVOTIKIN YUP HOYAS WIN HOYAS WIN HOYAS WIN AJAX CLEANS THE BOARDS.. SLEEPY FROM way way out .. etc etc etc . he hits it from the elbow ah what memories and they continue tooooooooo g hoyas

[SirSaxa]

Oct 30, 2011 18:23:12 GMT -5 2ndRyan said:

SirSaxa enjoyed your memories. Esp. appreciate the props for Jon Smith. Merlin gets remembered for his rebounding record, but Smith really did seem like the AI of his day.

Two other players from the latter half of the Seventies that deserve mention are Al Dutch and Eric Smith, both small forwards. Dutch's role as one of the first nationally visible players landed by JT has been mentioned in the History Project and by Casual Hoya. E. Smith was the MVP on the 81-82 team that included future NBA stars Pat Ewing freshman and Eric Floyd, senior.

One small nit- the Fordham game you speak of couldn't have included Digger as coach. He left Rose Hill in the spring of '71 after one season for South Bend. He rode a player named Charlie Yelverton deep into the NCAA's and left for what probably proved to be greener pastures.

Charlie Yelverton! Wow, I forgot all about him.
And yes, you are correct. Digger had already moved on to ND where he continued his very successful career. So he could not have been at McDonough in '73.
But, I could swear Bill Russell was there that game. I think he might have come to a couple of games. And GU did beat Fordham and Jonathan (Swift) Smith was on fire in the second half shooting, driving, and winning the game.

OF course, I also remember Eric Smith and Al "Dutch" Treat. Lots of great players back then. As several have mentioned, JT spent a decade building GU hoops to national prominence before Pat Ewing (and Ralph Dalton, Anthony Jones and Bill Martin) committed to take us over the top.

The '80 team, with Sr. Duren and Soph Floyd in the starting backcourt - was the greatest pair of guards in GU history. Iverson and Page COULD have been, but weren't. Duren and Floyd remain two of the greatest guards in Hoya history, with Floyd and AI as the two best. You can make arguments for either of those guys as best ever, but the 4 years and Final Four that Floyd accomplished might put him over AI.

It is really fun to remember those days because that's how we got to where we are today. As exciting as all those days were, today for us -- and def for today's GU student body -- it is more exciting to think about the current team and upcoming recruits. OK, yes... I tend to land on the optimistic side -- I admit it. But, I do think we are going to enjoy these new kids complementing Clark and Thompson to have a lot of fun this year and surprise a LOT of people.

I agree with those projecting our early season staring line up, but I would not be at all surprised to see one or two frosh crash that starting lineup sometime this year -- and for sure, they will get serious minutes. We are not talking about Vee and JB trying to hold the fort when foul trouble hits, rather kids who will be solid contributors who come in and ADD SOMETHING when they are in there. Not simply "fort holders".... kids who make something happen.

Anyway, thanks for correcting my fading memory 2nd Ryan. Let's hope this team -- and its terrific coach -- go out and makes some awesome NEW memories this year!

[idhoya]

thanx to all of you "old heads" for your memories. That's when college hoops were great. So....you're all-time starting five would be: ??

PG- Duren
SG- Floyd
SF- Reggie
PF- Shelton
C- Ewing

Thoughts.....

[SirSaxa]

Oct 30, 2011 23:14:35 GMT -5 idhoya said:

thanx to all of you "old heads" for your memories. That's when college hoops were great. So....you're all-time starting five would be: ??

PG- Duren
SG- Floyd
SF- Reggie
PF- Shelton
C- Ewing

Thoughts.....

Probably ID.
As a starting 5, working together as a team.. probably.

For PF there could be a few options -- moving Zo out of position to play alongside Patrick. Jeff Green and Mike Sweetney might also be in the running for that spot.

And... how do we leave AI out? As an individual talent, his only rival is Patrick. As someone who knows how to harness and maximize that talent as a productive member of a team? Johnnie Duren and Sleepy get the nod. Also, there was a guard named Derrick Jackson in the '70s who was outstanding.

A fun exercise.

Can't wait to see how the new kids develop and play this year. Who knows, maybe we have some future all time greats on the team right now!

[Ranch Dressing]

Given the twin towers arrangement with Dikembe, I think we can honestly place Zo at the 4 and replace Shelton, who was terrific, but not nearly on the level of a Zo.

The rest I agree with.

Given his 4 year commitment to Georgetown and pure PG skills, I take Duren over Iverson every day of the week. Plus, the man had the strongest quads I've ever seen on a basketball court.

[lichoya68]

all great hoyas but i remember one more big john techniques shall we say in mcdonough.... no AC AND we were always in great shape and ran the court and tired people out..... SOOOOO do you all remember those big fans might be on in the first half but frequently GOT TURNED OFF SOMEHOW in the second half??/ especially if we weren't doing as well as expected.?. hmmm budget musta been tight for electricity back then.. the little details as they say the devil is in the details.. GO HOYAS OLD NEW AND FUTURE and so many people and players contributed so much to these teams and this program... remember coach jt3 made walk- on ryan doherty a capt..... ms michel was the backbone and tradition of our hoyas for many years mary fenlon ran the academics and big john LISTENED TO HER?? so hard to single out a few altho big john was critical ...and remember ESPECIALLY THIS year.... he always said ITS FEBRUARY and thats what counts.. great memories ....and great hope for the future this year.. and beyond. ...yup for generations to come ...GO HOYAS REGARDS from a really old and bald head !!!

[HoyaChris]

Oct 31, 2011 8:59:44 GMT -5 Ranch Dressing said:

Given the twin towers arrangement with Dikembe, I think we can honestly place Zo at the 4 and replace Shelton, who was terrific, but not nearly on the level of a Zo.

The rest I agree with.

Given his 4 year commitment to Georgetown and pure PG skills, I take Duren over Iverson every day of the week. Plus, the man had the strongest quads I've ever seen on a basketball court.

I agree with your personnel (i.e. Zo replaces Big Sky on the team) but not your positioning. Zo was never comfortable at the 4 and he was much less effective defensively when paired with Dikembe because his effectiveness defensively was highlighted when he played opposing bigs straight up. Consequently, my lineup would have Zo at the 5 and Patrick at the 4 where he could take 10-15 foot jump shots all day and poach weak side blocks on defense.

[hoyainspirit]

Oct 31, 2011 9:57:20 GMT -5 HoyaChris said:

I agree with your personnel (i.e. Zo replaces Big Sky on the team) but not your positioning. Zo was never comfortable at the 4 and he was much less effective defensively when paired with Dikembe because his effectiveness defensively was highlighted when he played opposing bigs straight up. Consequently, my lineup would have Zo at the 5 and Patrick at the 4 where he could take 10-15 foot jump shots all day and poach weak side blocks on defense.

Ewing on the wing in the 2-3 zone was devastating. Forget about getting a good look on his side.