The Case Against "Catholic League" Basketball

[DFW HOYA]

Five part series on the front page this week discusses the financial impact if Georgetown retreats to a mid-major college conference.

Monday: The impact on TV rights fees
Tuesday: The impact in NCAA tournament revenues
Wednesday: The impact upon the Hoya Hoop Club and IAC giving
Thursday: The impact on attendance and recruiting
Friday: The impact on coaches, and all other GU sports

www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/bball.htm#case

[MCIGuy]

When the Big East started it was essentially starting off as a mid-major although that term was likely not around at the time. You have to start from somewhere. Over the years you kept pointing out how Gtown was acting like it was a mid-major in terms of its financing of its athletic department, so the only thing keeping it above mid-major status was its membership in the Big East, right? You see THAT was a problem right there. Depending on the conference to make you relevant makes one a fraud. And that doesn't serve the program well at all.

A catholic league doesn't have to be a mid-major conference in the way we view mid-majors. Not even in this present day BCS reality. One just needs to reinvent the game, take a different approach. Unfortunately that takes leadership and a lot of hard work and those resources may be more scarce amongst the Catholic schools than money. However don't tell me it can't be done. Nothing is impossible. It may not be the ideal way of going forward, but it could eventually work and could eventually lead to a powerful conference as so long the BCS schools don't try to shut out any none BCS schools from a national tournament. It should at least be a serious option.

[Saxifrage]

Oct 9, 2011 22:52:34 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

A catholic league doesn't have to be a mid-major conference in the way we view mid-majors. Not even in this present day BCS reality. One just needs to reinvent the game, take a different approach. Unfortunately that takes leadership and a lot of hard work and those resources may be more scarce amongst the Catholic schools than money. However don't tell me it can't be done. Nothing is impossible. It may not be the ideal way of going forward, but it could eventually work and could eventually lead to a powerful conference as so long the BCS schools don't try to shut out any none BCS schools from a national tournament. It should at least be a serious option.

This strikes me as exactly right. The BCS/mid-major system is ripe for reinvention.

[reformation]

Oct 9, 2011 22:18:40 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Five part series on the front page this week discusses the financial impact if Georgetown retreats to a mid-major college conference.

Monday: The impact on TV rights fees
Tuesday: The impact in NCAA tournament revenues
Wednesday: The impact upon the Hoya Hoop Club and IAC giving
Thursday: The impact on attendance and recruiting
Friday: The impact on coaches, and all other GU sports

www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/bball.htm#case

While I agree with your basic premise I'm not too sure that a 20 percent premium to an A10 tv contract for a league with ND/SJ/Vill/Gtwn is accurate representation of what we can get from tv--it would be interesting for someone who works in sports tv to weigh in.

[GUMBA]

Nothing is impossible... it could eventually work and lead to a power conference? Ripe for reinvention? How do you do those things without money? Lots of money. Xavier, Butler and Gonzaga are exceptions to the rule. They are standout teams in lack luster conferences whose coaches are constantly being poached by larger schools. The Big 4 Super Conferences want nothing more than to consolidate the money and airtime to keep out the other smaller schools. First in football, then in basketball. The NCAA basketball tournament is far more equitable than the bowl game system in football. These schools LIKE the bowl system. Why? Because it means more money.

A catholic league appeals to catholics. It doesn't appeal to a wider audience and communities outside their respective alumni bases. You need eyeballs. Even the original Big East looked to larger non-catholic schools that could bring fans to the games. The catholic schools - save Notre Dame - basically lack scale in this equation. Advertisers looks for eyeballs to watch their commercials. An all catholic basketball conference made up of mid-size schools doesn't bring enough eyeballs. Without advertising revenues, they can't pay the schools large sums to broadcast the games. It is that simple.

Hoya fans are always complaining that the Washington Post favors UMD in hoops coverage. The Post caters to UMD fans because subscriber numbers, website hits and other demographic indicators tell them that far more Terps fans read the paper than do Hoya fans. So you run stories that people are interested in reading. We are the minority because we don't have scale. No matter how good a team we put on the court.

People don't like the instability. They think the other schools will sell us down the river. If the opportunity is right, yes they will. So would you. It is their responsibility to do what is financially best for their schools. But once the 64 chairs of the four Super Conferences are full, there is nowhere else to go. And the chairs are getting full - PAC 12, B1G 10 (12 schools), ACC 14, and SEC 13. That leaves 13 slots between the Big East (6 FB schools), Big 12 (10 FB schools w/TCU), CUSA (12 FB schools), WAC (13 FB schools), big independents ND, BYU, Navy and several smaller conferences. That means lots of other schools are out there to join forces.

Where were Boise State and TCU a few years back in football? A new Big East can elevate football programs of its members just as it did in the past. I believe ECU and UCF can make the same leap. USF and UCONN are doing it right now. Much to the dismay of Boston College which want to keep UCONN down as long as it can and keep them out of the ACC.

Change is hard but the Big East can survive this change and even thrive with the addition of other quality schools that bring large excited fan bases, solid TV markets, and resources to the table. Stepping back into an all catholic basketball only conference might make catholic fans feel good, but it will hurt our recruiting, reputation and financial ability to field a competitive team.

[gujake]

Good article, DFW. It's nice to see a breakdown of the actual numbers.

Not sure if I'm "looking forward" to the other 4 parts of the series since I expect them to paint a pretty grim picture, but I will be sure to read them.

[kghoya]

If anybody needs a series of articles against a "Catholic League" basketball conference then they aren't paying attention.

[Eurostar]

Regarding TV money, the question becomes does a Big East with random football schools ie Air Force, Navy, Memphis, Boise State (but a worse basketball conference) get us more money per year than a very strong basketball conference only. The answer is probably yes.

Eventually these football teams will bolt leaving us with a conference settled around Gtown, Nova, St Johns, Notre Dame, Xavier, Marquette, Butler. This would not be a mid major level basketball conference, though it would probably get a mid major level TV deal. I think this option will ALWAYS be available, so we might as well try to keep something together with football until this happens.

[fsohoya]

Save a few posters on this board, the question isn't really if it is better to stay in a football-playing BE, but whether that will be possible. And let's face it: Even if the BE can be salvaged this time around - and that's a big "if" - there will very likely be continued threats to the league's stability, and the non-football schools will probably continue to have little leverage. So we absolutely cannot just give up on the idea of a "CYO League," which by the way is not intended to appeal to Catholics, but is just a consequence of most big-time hoops schools that don't play FBS football being Catholic.

All this means we have to try to think of ways to make such a league work, not just assume it can't. And no one knows what the future holds -- maybe people will hate super conferences and the crazy new football scheduling it will require. Or Congress will step in and break up a BCS-like arrangement. Or new media we can't even imagine will make outlets like ESPN worthless.

This is a classic example of the need to hope for the best but plan for the worst.

[Filo]

Oct 10, 2011 7:15:31 GMT -5 fsohoya said:

Save a few posters on this board, the question isn't really if it is better to stay in a football-playing BE, but whether that will be possible. And let's face it: Even if the BE can be salvaged this time around - and that's a big "if" - there will very likely be continued threats to the league's stability, and the non-football schools will probably continue to have little leverage. So we absolutely cannot just give up on the idea of a "CYO League," which by the way is not intended to appeal to Catholics, but is just a consequence of most big-time hoops schools that don't play FBS football being Catholic.

All this means we have to try to think of ways to make such a league work, not just assume it can't. And no one knows what the future holds -- maybe people will hate super conferences and the crazy new football scheduling it will require. Or Congress will step in and break up a BCS-like arrangement. Or new media we can't even imagine will make outlets like ESPN worthless.

This is a classic example of the need to hope for the best but plan for the worst.

Good post. I think the intelligence level of the discourse would increase ten-fold if it was not framed as a "Catholic league." We are talking about a basketball-centric league, and not limiting it to Catholics schools. It just so happens that there are a number of Catholic schools in a similar position as GU, but there are other non-Catholic schools that that should be considered.

As DFW will continue to point out, there are serious drawbacks to such a league; however, using terms like "parochial" and "CYO league" just confuses the arguments, since it brings in an element that really is not even part of the equation. Seems to be some logical fallacy -- where is Wayne Davis when I need him (perhaps some kind of Straw Man argument combined with Argument By Emotive Language?).

[guru]

Oct 10, 2011 9:45:10 GMT -5 Filo said:

Oct 10, 2011 7:15:31 GMT -5 fsohoya said:

Save a few posters on this board, the question isn't really if it is better to stay in a football-playing BE, but whether that will be possible. And let's face it: Even if the BE can be salvaged this time around - and that's a big "if" - there will very likely be continued threats to the league's stability, and the non-football schools will probably continue to have little leverage. So we absolutely cannot just give up on the idea of a "CYO League," which by the way is not intended to appeal to Catholics, but is just a consequence of most big-time hoops schools that don't play FBS football being Catholic.

All this means we have to try to think of ways to make such a league work, not just assume it can't. And no one knows what the future holds -- maybe people will hate super conferences and the crazy new football scheduling it will require. Or Congress will step in and break up a BCS-like arrangement. Or new media we can't even imagine will make outlets like ESPN worthless.

This is a classic example of the need to hope for the best but plan for the worst.

Good post. I think the intelligence level of the discourse would increase ten-fold if it was not framed as a "Catholic league." We are talking about a basketball-centric league, and not limiting it to Catholics schools. It just so happens that there are a number of Catholic schools in a similar position as GU, but there are other non-Catholic schools that that should be considered.

As DFW will continue to point out, there are serious drawbacks to such a league; however, using terms like "parochial" and "CYO league" just confuses the arguments, since it brings in an element that really is not even part of the equation. Seems to be some logical fallacy -- where is Wayne Davis when I need him (perhaps some kind of Straw Man argument combined with Argument By Emotive Language?).

This is so true - to my knowledge no one is advocating an all-Catholic league. Spinning it into that makes it easier to argue against, I guess. It would be a basketball-first league, and it could work (though I've been swayed to the side of "we really lose nothing by continuing to explore our options of somehow staying in a BCS league," in the long run that setup isn't tenable).

[guru]

Another problem with this flawed analysis is lack of vision. It looks at the future landscape of college hoops through the lens of the present - in fact, once the music for the football musical chairs has stopped, college basketball will look a LOT different, and the entire definition of "mid-major" will change, or go away. Georgetown basketball is a brand unto itself, and that's bankable in this new world. Someone in charge needs to figure out a way to capitalize on that. Everything else, including the continuing, embarrassing erosion of the Big East, should be background noise.

[hoyasaxa2003]

I think DFW's analysis is spot on and I agree with almost everything in the article. I think those of you talking about having "vision" and changing the college basketball landscape have good intentions, but the problem is that we ARE living in the here and now. Sure, college athletics will likely be completely different in 20 years. However, the problem is that we need to keep Georgetown relevant now so that when the landscape does change, we are able to face those changes and thrive.

Ideally, college football will change to a playoff system and cast off the BCS system. That would ease pressures on conference realignment (and maybe even create incentive for more conferences, if there were auto bids into the football playoffs) and create a better environment for basketball. However, I really don't think this will happen soon enough for Georgetown to simply wait for that eventuality.

The fact is college football garners a lot of money, Georgetown doesn't have a major football program, and we need part of the pie for our basketball program. The only feasible way to do that is to be part of a major football conference.

[reformation]

Oct 10, 2011 10:15:47 GMT -5 guru said:

Another problem with this flawed analysis is lack of vision. It looks at the future landscape of college hoops through the lens of the present - in fact, once the music for the football musical chairs has stopped, college basketball will look a LOT different, and the entire definition of "mid-major" will change, or go away. Georgetown basketball is a brand unto itself, and that's bankable in this new world. Someone in charge needs to figure out a way to capitalize on that. Everything else, including the continuing, embarrassing erosion of the Big East, should be background noise.

Yes, but what exactly is the alternative vision--I haven't actually heard anyone articulate anything remotely specific.

[Hoyaholic]

DFW - As one of the relatively few who is vocal in support of the basketball-centric conference option (partly out of a belief that it is our best option, and partly out of recognition that it is our only option), I appreciate you taking the time to spell out your case, and providing some interesting and relevent facts that many of us may not have been aware of.

However, you undermine your message with the silly "CYO" references and logo, as well as the selective comparisons to DePaul and Providence, as opposed to Villanova, Marquette, Xavier, ND, Temple and Butler - all of whom would be candidates for such a league.

I also don't believe for a moment that the new conference would garner only a 20% premium to the A-10, especially if it were to include their two marquis programs (Temple and Xavier). However it appears neither of us have enough information to know for sure what the actual number would be.

However, with respect to TV revenue my greatest fear is something you allude to but don't say outright: that with ESPN fully in bed with the ACC, what is to stop the two of them from colluding to squash their only territorial competition for basketball? After the appalling recent comments from BC's AD regarding UCONN, I wouldn't put anything past them.

Looking forward to tomorrow's post.

[CTHoya08]

I want to preface this by saying that I agree that we should try to remain affiliated with the football schools for as long as we can.

That being said, I want to join those saying that calling it a "Catholic conference" and then dismissing the "Catholic conference" as being too parochial is unfair. People are calling it a Catholic league because all of the BE's non-football members (the schools that would form the nucleus of the league) happen to be Catholic. It's a lot easier/more accurate than saying "basketball-only" or "non-football-playing," given that neither of those are true. I don't think anybody here is actively advocating an "Apostolic Eight."

[DanMcQ]

The BE Presidents and Chancellors vote against a basketball-only conference today:

collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/10/big-east-oks-expansion-to-12-football-members/

"On a teleconference earlier today, our Presidents and Chancellors authorized the BIG EAST Conference to engage in formal discussions with additional institutions and are considering moving to a model that includes 12 football playing schools."

[4aks]

Thanks for the analysis. Another variable I'm interested in is Nike, I assume they are paying for exposure. (I did a few google searches, but didn't turn up any info).

I assume when it comes to endorsement contracts, they are paying for being on TV , at a time and channel that gets a lot of eyeballs, such as early January in football, and March/April in basketball

Basketball Nov/Dec/Jan prob doesn't bring a whole lot of eyeballs

Here's some reference info:
webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:JeIOVn1GLpYJ:blog.al.com/solomon/2010/05/alabamas_nike_deal_comes_with.html+nike+paying+to+sponsor+college+sports&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


TOP APPAREL
ENDORSEMENT CONTRACTS
These are some of the top ap­parel deals for universities in the country. The information comes from published reports. The values include cash and estimated compen­sation of apparel and equipment.
Michigan, $66.5 million, 8 years, Adidas
Notre Dame, $60 million, 10 years, Adidas
North Carolina, $33.7 million, 10 years, Nike
Alabama, $30 million, 8 years, Nike
Kansas, $26.7 million, 8 years, Adidas
Nebraska, $22.7 million, 8 years, Adidas
Oregon, $22.7 million, 8 years, Nike
Indiana, $21 million, 8 years, Adidas

[EasyEd]

First off, Dan, thanks for supplying hard numbers on TV contracts as it helps a great deal to get a handle on what we are facing. I'd like to join in, however, in objecting to your use of the CYO, logo, Catholic league and "Catholic Castoffs" in making your case. It distorts the real message you have.
Second, ESPN may have enormous impact on the sports world today but look out for competition in the future to knock them down in their influence. And that may not necessarily be cable but might be streaming video of some sort or some other technical approach. And, third, I don't think anyone suggesting a non-football conference of some arrangement thinks this is the preferred arrangement but, rather, it's what we are ultimately facng and see that as the handwriting on the wall. Let's face it, it might mean Georgetown basketball will not be as prominent as it is today, as utterly distasteful as that is, or it might still be prominent in an arrangement where we are not beholden to the football schools if we seize the moment and try to sculpt a really good basketball-centric conference. We might be able to do this by adding prominent basketball schools like Memphis, Butler, Xavier and Temple, to cite four.

[FLHoya]

A couple weeks ago I was having a conversation about the TV coverage issue should the Big East eventually split off into whatever we're calling the CYO/Catholic/basketball-only/no-futbalz-allowed conference.

Good news, I did some handiwork running one particular stat. Bad news, I only shared it w/ the one friend I was conversing with and my Twitter followers, and I ditched the notes. So, extrapolating, from 280 or less characters:

If you take the 2011-12 Big East basketball TV schedule, and look at games between two "football" schools vs. those between two "basketball" schools (I include ND in this category) that might form the new "basketball-only" league:

58.8% of football matchups are on nat'l TV (ESPN/2/U/CBS)
48.5% of basketball matchups are on nat'l TV

BUT...when you dig deeper into that:

9 of the 17 "basketball" nat'l TV matchups are actually on ESPNU, and only 5 are on ESPN/CBS.

Meanwhile, 11 of the "football" matchups are on ESPN/CBS and only 2 on ESPNU. (The total number of football nat'l TV games, IIRC, was in the high teens as well).


I just don't think a "basketball-only" league is attractive enough to command prime TV spots from ESPN. The "basketball" schools aren't commanding them as much right now vs. the "football" counterparts in the Big East.

Even if you added Xavier, Butler, Temple, and Dayton, let's say...what are the marquee matchups that demand a Big Monday? What are the matchups that even demand ESPN coverage, vice ESPN2 or most likely ESPNU?