What the BE and GU should do now

[bigelephant]

There are about as many ideas as there are alumni, but here is mine. Some may agree, many will not, some will have variations and some want to give up basketball altogether. For what it’s worth here are my ideas

Georgetown back in the day was really totally irrelevant as far as basketball, sports (except Track), academic excellence and the next is your choice. The Jesuits ran the show – the Board, if there was one, were all Jesuits. Nothing wrong with that back then, except they were the most conservative (not necessarily political) bunch imaginable. There was no foresight, 10 year planning, let alone, Visionary Planning. The place was run like an extension of high school. We had no significant Giving Program. The alumni graduated and promptly forgot about the place. I’m talking 50’s and 60’s. Enter John Thompson, Jr and Father Henle and things began to change albeit slowly. The Hoyas began appearing on TV, Pat Ewing came. We were in the NCAA finals 3 of 4 years. Alumni took notice, Pride swelled; giving began to be real giving. Fr Healy came along and continued to push Georgetown forward to the point that we became relevant in most of the ways that we were not previously. We made the top 25 in best Universities, our applications soared and team for the most part was moving ever upward in recognition. The Board became a real Board etc etc.

Now basketball was not the sole reason for this, but it was a darn big part. At the very least, IMHO the BIGGEST PART. So that’s why in a nut shell I NEVER want to go back to the old days. That’s why I think ending up in position less then we are now is going to hurt Georgetown in many more ways then just athletically.

So we should fight tooth and nail for our place and position and not be talking about a catholic League and the Armory and so much of the foolishness that has been spewed.

Start with fact that we are in the Big East with the remaining teams. Start from there. Make it worthwhile for Navy, Air Force and ND to join. Tag, are you listening? TV has big money. A network supporting such plans will help financially. Give ND what it wants and needs, ditto the service academies. Add them to the current package and there will be really something to see that a network (esp one left out in the cold)may be drooling to suppport. Don’t get caught up in jealousies of someone getting a couple of dimes more this go around. ND and the academies would bring so much to the league in fan base and recognition you couldn’t put a price on it. Make it happen by giving them a proposition they could not refuse. Fox,CBS,ABC etc can help. Keep the football schools together and basketball will be OK. Even it up next time, but for now go for broke

Nothing is forever and I would agree with you, what happens to Georgetown the next blow up? However, right now, we should partner with Villanova in moving the idea of eventually establishing D 1 football. If there is enough TV money, it may very well be possible. Would it not be easier if two BE teams would do this together? Support each other in the quest. Wouldn’t have to re-invent the wheel twice. Then we would be in a much better place if there is a next blow up.

Concurrently with this the BE should go after the ACC with all the vengeance of a woman scorned. Don’t get mad, get even. MAKE THEM PAY!!! First start out with BC. Find out if there is anything there. If so, pursue it to the very end. Make them an offer they can’t refuse. GO ON THE ATTACK. Then hit Duke with its national alumni fan base. They and BC would be somewhat more amenable to leaving the ACC than say NC State and UNC. MONEY TALKS. Don’t be afraid to engage esp if we have a supportive network up our sleeve.

Go from being whupped to defense to the attack mode. Let the ACC have it with shock and awe! Go right down the line and see if we can pry away anyone. If nothing more, leak it and get networkers and sportcasters talking about this. Give it right back to the ACC – above or below the b----! If we could, the bragging rights alone would be nearly priceless.

Now is the time to engage the fight. I hope we have leadership at the BE level and the BE University level to stand up and say “We Ain’t Gonna Take This No More”.

I’m sure many if not most will not agree – will shrink from the fight – will look for alternatives – will want contingency plans – will just give up. But IMO Now is the time – Today is the Day!!!

[FrazierFanatic]

Sept 22, 2011 8:15:36 GMT -5 bmartin said:

A great thing about the noon Saturday game is that the highlights are seen by all the people watching the later games.

It's only great if we win the noon game!

[bigelephant]

There was a lot of talk about smaller venues - the is from a Georgetown release in July :

"Georgetown men's basketball is a primary tenant of Verizon Center and has ranked in or near the top-25 of NCAA men's basketball attendance for the last three seasons. During the 2010-11 season, when Georgetown reached the NCAA Tournament for the sixth time in seven years under Head Coach John Thompson III, the Hoyas finished the season ranked No. 25 in the country and fourth in the BIG EAST in average attendance with 12,675 fans per game. "

These are the facts.

[bmartin]

Five views of these same issues from the Marquette point of view:
blogs.marquettetribune.org/2011/09/21/paint-touches/five-point-play-v3-realignment-questions/

[HoyaChris]

Sept 22, 2011 13:53:21 GMT -5 bigelephant said:

There was a lot of talk about smaller venues - the is from a Georgetown release in July :

"Georgetown men's basketball is a primary tenant of Verizon Center and has ranked in or near the top-25 of NCAA men's basketball attendance for the last three seasons. During the 2010-11 season, when Georgetown reached the NCAA Tournament for the sixth time in seven years under Head Coach John Thompson III, the Hoyas finished the season ranked No. 25 in the country and fourth in the BIG EAST in average attendance with 12,675 fans per game. "

These are the facts.

Just once it would be nice if a Georgetown press release got its facts correct.

We have gone to the NCAA tournament FIVE times in JTIII's seven years, going to the NIT in 2005 and 2009.

[vcjack]

Sept 22, 2011 14:44:02 GMT -5 bmartin said:

Five views of these same issues from the Marquette point of view:
blogs.marquettetribune.org/2011/09/21/paint-touches/five-point-play-v3-realignment-questions/

Interesting that (almost) all of the writers thought of Georgetown as a more appropriate companion school for Marquette rather than Depaul or ND

[Cambridge]

Sept 22, 2011 14:50:13 GMT -5 vcjack said:

Sept 22, 2011 14:44:02 GMT -5 bmartin said:

Five views of these same issues from the Marquette point of view:
blogs.marquettetribune.org/2011/09/21/paint-touches/five-point-play-v3-realignment-questions/

Interesting that (almost) all of the writers thought of Georgetown as a more appropriate companion school for Marquette rather than Depaul or ND

Other than it being very very cold, SFHoya and I had a blast going to game out at Marquette a few years ago. They are a Catholic school in an urban area with a storied basketball tradition and they do a great job filling a pro-arena for their games. In a lot of ways they are very similar to Georgetown. I'd say it's a great match. Strongly recommend the roadtrip.

[EasyEd]

Bigelephant, enjoy your enthusiam, agree we have to be pro-active rather than passive, but you lost me in talking about Georgetown and Division 1 football. Can't happen for reasons too numerous to mention.

[bigelephant]

Sept 22, 2011 15:38:16 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

Bigelephant, enjoy your enthusiam, agree we have to be pro-active rather than passive, but you lost me in talking about Georgetown and Division 1 football. Can't happen for reasons too numerous to mention.

Thanks for at least reponding. We agree in a lot ways except for the football thing. If ND can do it, if BC can do it and if VILLANOVA (Yes, Villanova) can talk about it then I think we should be in the fight. It's a long shot, I never said it would be easy, but the landscape is changing. I just don't want us to be so short sighted like the guys of yore, that we don't even look into it. There is and will be a lot of TV money available to some one.

[vcjack]

Sept 22, 2011 15:59:48 GMT -5 bigelephant said:

Sept 22, 2011 15:38:16 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

Bigelephant, enjoy your enthusiam, agree we have to be pro-active rather than passive, but you lost me in talking about Georgetown and Division 1 football. Can't happen for reasons too numerous to mention.

Thanks for at least reponding. We agree in a lot ways except for the football thing. If ND can do it, if BC can do it and if VILLANOVA (Yes, Villanova) can talk about it then I think we should be in the fight. It's a long shot, I never said it would be easy, but the landscape is changing. I just don't want us to be so short sighted like the guys of yore, that we don't even look into it. There is and will be a lot of TV money available to some one.

We need massive investments just to GET to Villanova's current level. And that level is: fighting with an MLS team for stadium usage and losing the said fight.

[SFHoya99]

The amount of money needed to get to that level would do a lot more good to keep Georgetown relevant in basketball by investing in basketball than by starting a DI football program almost from scratch.

[HometownHoya]

Sept 22, 2011 18:30:34 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

The amount of money needed to get to that level would do a lot more good to keep Georgetown relevant in basketball by investing in basketball than by starting a DI football program almost from scratch.

The money it would take to go DI would be enough for IAC + MSF to par.

[Bando]

Sept 22, 2011 15:38:16 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

Bigelephant, enjoy your enthusiam, agree we have to be pro-active rather than passive, but you lost me in talking about Georgetown and Division 1 football. Can't happen for reasons too numerous to mention.

I can mention a few:

1. I'm pretty sure DC public schools have better game facilites than we do.

2. Do you have an extra billion dollars lying around you want to commit to this? Because Georgetown doesn't!

3. Any football tradition we had is lost. Students watch real college football in their dorms on Saturdays, they don't go down to the MSF.

4. The band tried to become a scramble band once, and athletics killed it. You need music scholarships if you want a marching band.

5. 6,000 students on campus is not enough to support FBS football.

6. Say we do get 40,000 people a game to watch football (low by FBS standards). How exactly are they getting to campus, with our tens of parking spaces and no public transportation?

etc., etc., etc.

[Ranch Dressing]

Another reason is the sad reality that there is precious little space to expand facilities within our urban campus. Nova has plenty of room to expand to accommodate a growing FBS program within their suburban campus.

Big E, I actually agree on many of your points about being a leader, sticking it to the ACC, becoming aggressive, going on the offensive, and doing it today. Total agreement. We need vision and leadership at the top to take the University, and those other schools similarly positioned, in an exciting, new direction.

I just don't see the hodgepodge conference and Georgetown football as being part of the long-term solution.

As Denny Green once said, "We are who they said we are." We are not a 50,000 student state school. We are a small, private University. We are a hoops school. We need to find a way to make that model work. The rest of it is unsustainable and just a head in the sand delay. I have no doubt, whether it is immediately (my preference), or when the music stops in two years (seemingly everyone else'e preference), that we can be part of an elite hoops-focused conference that will generate sufficient revenue for basketball-only schools that will be loyal to each other and stay together for decades to come. That is the vision. Dave Gavitt, God rest his soul, sold his vision to the world 30 years ago. We need to do the same. Today.

[Cambridge]

Sept 23, 2011 1:51:28 GMT -5 Bando said:

Sept 22, 2011 15:38:16 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

Bigelephant, enjoy your enthusiam, agree we have to be pro-active rather than passive, but you lost me in talking about Georgetown and Division 1 football. Can't happen for reasons too numerous to mention.

I can mention a few:

1. I'm pretty sure DC public schools have better game facilites than we do.

2. Do you have an extra billion dollars lying around you want to commit to this? Because Georgetown doesn't!

3. Any football tradition we had is lost. Students watch real college football in their dorms on Saturdays, they don't go down to the MSF.

4. The band tried to become a scramble band once, and athletics killed it. You need music scholarships if you want a marching band.

5. 6,000 students on campus is not enough to support FBS football.

6. Say we do get 40,000 people a game to watch football (low by FBS standards). How exactly are they getting to campus, with our tens of parking spaces and no public transportation?

etc., etc., etc.

To nit pick, 40,000 a game low? Mediocre is probably more apt. For example, 40,000 a game would put us about the middle of the table in the Big East -- on par with Syracuse/USF and higher than UConn/Cincy.

Obviously, we aren't drawing 40,000 anyways, so my point is moot. I agree with the rest of your post in full. Just being a stickler.

[bigelephant]

Sept 23, 2011 8:02:44 GMT -5 Ranch Dressing said:

Another reason is the sad reality that there is precious little space to expand facilities within our urban campus. Nova has plenty of room to expand to accommodate a growing FBS program within their suburban campus.

Big E, I actually agree on many of your points about being a leader, sticking it to the ACC, becoming aggressive, going on the offensive, and doing it today. Total agreement. We need vision and leadership at the top to take the University, and those other schools similarly positioned, in an exciting, new direction.

Thanks Ranch but football is apparently a "no sale" period.

I just don't see the hodgepodge conference and Georgetown football as being part of the long-term solution.

As Denny Green once said, "We are who they said we are." We are not a 50,000 student state school. We are a small, private University. We are a hoops school. We need to find a way to make that model work. The rest of it is unsustainable and just a head in the sand delay. I have no doubt, whether it is immediately (my preference), or when the music stops in two years (seemingly everyone else'e preference), that we can be part of an elite hoops-focused conference that will generate sufficient revenue for basketball-only schools that will be loyal to each other and stay together for decades to come. That is the vision. Dave Gavitt, God rest his soul, sold his vision to the world 30 years ago. We need to do the same. Today.

Apparently football is a " no sale" - thanks anyway Ranch for your support on the rest of it.

[DFW HOYA]

These arguments get a little circular, because Georgetown is on record as supporting football but without scholarships (a mixture of finances and "cultural" impact). Could it change if schools must commit to I-A to maintain standing in college basketball? Perhaps, perhsps not. Maybe Georgetown will be comfortable exiting the main stage as other schools have done over the years.

To Bando's points:

1. "I'm pretty sure DC public schools have better game facilites than we do." In a I-A scenario, Georgetown would not be on-campus but lease FedEx Field and/or the next generation Redskins stadium (aka the Dan Snyder Dome). This is the argument being fought up at Villanova--none of their I-A plans have them playing on campus.

2. "Do you have an extra billion dollars lying around you want to commit to this? Because Georgetown doesn't!" It's foolish to assume college football is a billion dollar investment, it's more like $10-12 million annually.

3. "Any football tradition we had is lost. Students watch real college football in their dorms on Saturdays, they don't go down to the MSF". Perhsps they'll same the same one day about the lost basketball tradition, too. While I don't argue for I-A, I understand the scenarios where the networks will restrict major television exposure to a limited number of schools which could leave Georgetown to some sort of ESPN5 broadcasts.

4. "The band tried to become a scramble band once, and athletics killed it. You need music scholarships if you want a marching band." Most I-A private schools which do not offer music scholarships, and more than a few public schools, too. A scramble band screams "We don't have talent and aren't afraid to say so." and schools are getting away from this. Only two D-IA schools (Rice and Stanford) use this, even Virginia dropped its excuse of a "scramble band" years ago. (You want to see a real Ivy band, watch Cornell.)

5. "6,000 students on campus is not enough to support FBS football. But Tulsa is half Georgetown's size and maintains it, as do Rice, Wake Forest, Tulane, and Duke, while TCU (slightly larger, but fewer grad students) Stanford, SMU, and even BC are within range of Georgetown's enrollment. These schools rely on community support to maintain it, not a campus base.

6. "Say we do get 40,000 people a game to watch football (low by FBS standards). How exactly are they getting to campus, with our tens of parking spaces and no public transportation?" See #1.

Bottom line, Georgetown is under no obligation to push for I-A and there is not the drive to do so when I-AA football has traditionally been held in low esteem by students. Notwithstanding, not being included in I-A will be cause for some in the athletics world to seek to relegate Georgetown to a Holy Cross-level of basketball program, whether we as fans like it or not. Let's be realistic: four superconferences are not going to allow something like the RPI from taking away slots in the NCAA tournament (if there still is one) to their interests and not to supposedly inferior conferences and suppsedly inferior programs.

If the 30 remaining conferences were slotted into play-in games for 15 autobids and four superconferences controlled all 45 at-large bids, you'd say that's unfair, but what is the NCAA going to about it? Nothing, especially if those four threaten to leave and start their own tournament and take the ten-figure TV contract with it.

And for Georgetown, that's an entre to a world where Georgetown basketball is more about the good old days than a future, where Rev. Henle's "just make the NIT every few years or so" would be sadly prophetic.

[Nevada Hoya]

Sept 22, 2011 8:26:07 GMT -5 bigelephant said:

There are about as many ideas as there are alumni, but here is mine. Some may agree, many will not, some will have variations and some want to give up basketball altogether. For what it’s worth here are my ideas

Georgetown back in the day was really totally irrelevant as far as basketball, sports (except Track), academic excellence and the next is your choice. The Jesuits ran the show – the Board, if there was one, were all Jesuits. Nothing wrong with that back then, except they were the most conservative (not necessarily political) bunch imaginable. There was no foresight, 10 year planning, let alone, Visionary Planning. The place was run like an extension of high school. We had no significant Giving Program. The alumni graduated and promptly forgot about the place. I’m talking 50’s and 60’s. Enter John Thompson, Jr and Father Henle and things began to change albeit slowly. The Hoyas began appearing on TV, Pat Ewing came. We were in the NCAA finals 3 of 4 years. Alumni took notice, Pride swelled; giving began to be real giving. Fr Healy came along and continued to push Georgetown forward to the point that we became relevant in most of the ways that we were not previously. We made the top 25 in best Universities, our applications soared and team for the most part was moving ever upward in recognition. The Board became a real Board etc etc.

Now basketball was not the sole reason for this, but it was a darn big part. At the very least, IMHO the BIGGEST PART. So that’s why in a nut shell I NEVER want to go back to the old days. That’s why I think ending up in position less then we are now is going to hurt Georgetown in many more ways then just athletically.

So we should fight tooth and nail for our place and position and not be talking about a catholic League and the Armory and so much of the foolishness that has been spewed.

Start with fact that we are in the Big East with the remaining teams. Start from there. Make it worthwhile for Navy, Air Force and ND to join. Tag, are you listening? TV has big money. A network supporting such plans will help financially. Give ND what it wants and needs, ditto the service academies. Add them to the current package and there will be really something to see that a network (esp one left out in the cold)may be drooling to suppport. Don’t get caught up in jealousies of someone getting a couple of dimes more this go around. ND and the academies would bring so much to the league in fan base and recognition you couldn’t put a price on it. Make it happen by giving them a proposition they could not refuse. Fox,CBS,ABC etc can help. Keep the football schools together and basketball will be OK. Even it up next time, but for now go for broke

Nothing is forever and I would agree with you, what happens to Georgetown the next blow up? However, right now, we should partner with Villanova in moving the idea of eventually establishing D 1 football. If there is enough TV money, it may very well be possible. Would it not be easier if two BE teams would do this together? Support each other in the quest. Wouldn’t have to re-invent the wheel twice. Then we would be in a much better place if there is a next blow up.

Concurrently with this the BE should go after the ACC with all the vengeance of a woman scorned. Don’t get mad, get even. MAKE THEM PAY!!! First start out with BC. Find out if there is anything there. If so, pursue it to the very end. Make them an offer they can’t refuse. GO ON THE ATTACK. Then hit Duke with its national alumni fan base. They and BC would be somewhat more amenable to leaving the ACC than say NC State and UNC. MONEY TALKS. Don’t be afraid to engage esp if we have a supportive network up our sleeve.

Go from being whupped to defense to the attack mode. Let the ACC have it with shock and awe! Go right down the line and see if we can pry away anyone. If nothing more, leak it and get networkers and sportcasters talking about this. Give it right back to the ACC – above or below the b----! If we could, the bragging rights alone would be nearly priceless.

Now is the time to engage the fight. I hope we have leadership at the BE level and the BE University level to stand up and say “We Ain’t Gonna Take This No More”.

I’m sure many if not most will not agree – will shrink from the fight – will look for alternatives – will want contingency plans – will just give up. But IMO Now is the time – Today is the Day!!!

I'm glad you got at least part of the old Georgetown right.

[jackdog74]

If the number is $10M-$12M, we need to get aggressive, raise the money and get the program up and running. The stability that would bring to our athletic department is certainly worth it. Until things change, football is king. If we get a solid I-A program in place, I think nothing but good things would happen. I'm not saying it's going to be easy. These things tend to be quite difficult.

[fsohoya]

Sept 23, 2011 9:44:14 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

These arguments get a little circular, because Georgetown is on record as supporting football but without scholarships (a mixture of finances and "cultural" impact). Could it change if schools must commit to I-A to maintain standing in college basketball? Perhaps, perhsps not. Maybe Georgetown will be comfortable exiting the main stage as other schools have done over the years.

To Bando's points:

1. "I'm pretty sure DC public schools have better game facilites than we do." In a I-A scenario, Georgetown would not be on-campus but lease FedEx Field and/or the next generation Redskins stadium (aka the Dan Snyder Dome). This is the argument being fought up at Villanova--none of their I-A plans have them playing on campus.

2. "Do you have an extra billion dollars lying around you want to commit to this? Because Georgetown doesn't!" It's foolish to assume college football is a billion dollar investment, it's more like $10-12 million annually.

3. "Any football tradition we had is lost. Students watch real college football in their dorms on Saturdays, they don't go down to the MSF". Perhsps they'll same the same one day about the lost basketball tradition, too. While I don't argue for I-A, I understand the scenarios where the networks will restrict major television exposure to a limited number of schools which could leave Georgetown to some sort of ESPN5 broadcasts.

4. "The band tried to become a scramble band once, and athletics killed it. You need music scholarships if you want a marching band." Most I-A private schools which do not offer music scholarships, and more than a few public schools, too. A scramble band screams "We don't have talent and aren't afraid to say so." and schools are getting away from this. Only two D-IA schools (Rice and Stanford) use this, even Virginia dropped its excuse of a "scramble band" years ago. (You want to see a real Ivy band, watch Cornell.)

5. "6,000 students on campus is not enough to support FBS football. But Tulsa is half Georgetown's size and maintains it, as do Rice, Wake Forest, Tulane, and Duke, while TCU (slightly larger, but fewer grad students) Stanford, SMU, and even BC are within range of Georgetown's enrollment. These schools rely on community support to maintain it, not a campus base.

6. "Say we do get 40,000 people a game to watch football (low by FBS standards). How exactly are they getting to campus, with our tens of parking spaces and no public transportation?" See #1.

Bottom line, Georgetown is under no obligation to push for I-A and there is not the drive to do so when I-AA football has traditionally been held in low esteem by students. Notwithstanding, not being included in I-A will be cause for some in the athletics world to seek to relegate Georgetown to a Holy Cross-level of basketball program, whether we as fans like it or not. Let's be realistic: four superconferences are not going to allow something like the RPI from taking away slots in the NCAA tournament (if there still is one) to their interests and not to supposedly inferior conferences and suppsedly inferior programs.

If the 30 remaining conferences were slotted into play-in games for 15 autobids and four superconferences controlled all 45 at-large bids, you'd say that's unfair, but what is the NCAA going to about it? Nothing, especially if those four threaten to leave and start their own tournament and take the ten-figure TV contract with it.

And for Georgetown, that's an entre to a world where Georgetown basketball is more about the good old days than a future, where Rev. Henle's "just make the NIT every few years or so" would be sadly prophetic.

How many of those schools within GU's range actually make money on football? Probably not many. Then, how many are in BCS conferences, where we want and need to be if we're preparing for the Reign of the Superconferences? Fewer still. Next, how many are in major media markets with lots of other sports and entertainment to compete with? The number dwindles further. Finally, how many would essentially have to start from scratch?

I just don't see how it is at all realistic to think the solution to our basketball program is to suddenly try to play BCS football.