SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 19, 2011 16:47:08 GMT -5
If you are lucky enough to have been at Yankee Stadium for any games over the last 15 years when the bottom of the ninth comes and the Yanks have a lead of 3 or fewer runs, you would have heard the opening notes of Metallica's Enter Sandman, you'd get that chill up your spine, and you would almost certainly see the Yanks chalk up another Win as the greatest relief pitcher of all time notched another save. Mariano Rivera. Class act. Best There Ever Was. Mariano Rivera sets new saves record
Excerpts:
Monday's save was Rivera's 43rd of 2011. He has eight seasons of at least 40-plus saves, one behind Hoffman's all-time record of nine. Rivera and Hoffman are the only pitchers with more than four 40-save seasons in Major League history.
Rivera ranks ninth all-time in games pitched (1,038) and owns eight of the Yankees' top-ten single-save totals.
Rivera, who will turn 42 on Nov. 29, also leads baseball with 42 career postseason saves (Brad Lidge is second on the list with 18). He has a 0.71 postseason ERA and has held opponents to a .176 batting average. |
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 19, 2011 17:23:27 GMT -5
Awesome achievement for the BEST to ever to take the mound in Pinstripes. Love the fact that his reaction in every game is the same--win or lose and his demeanor never changes. He doesn't hide when he gets beat--answers questions, gives other team credit, etc....and when he succeeds, he doesn't act like a complete jackass and stomp around the mound or scream like he's a rock singer who has to move his bowels.
Pleasure to see his career and favorite Yankee of all time!
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Boz
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123 Fireballs!
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Post by Boz on Sept 19, 2011 17:58:21 GMT -5
I gotta' tell ya'....
I'm more than a little disappointed that, in his entire career, Mariano Rivera never once walked out of the bullpen with a lit cigarette, an open can of beer and brandishing a shinai in his non-glove hand.
Seriously, not even ONCE???
I don't like baseball and the Yankees will forever be the Evil Empire, but if he could've thrown one of those out there, I think I would've instantly become a Yankee fan for life.
Such a disappointment.
;D
Congrats to Mariano.
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SDHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by SDHoya on Sept 19, 2011 20:39:10 GMT -5
Mo just wishes he could have come out to Hells Bells.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 19, 2011 21:10:06 GMT -5
A heck of a pitcher and a heck of a person.
Even when he screws up, things turn out well for him. If he doesn't blow the save in Game 7 of the 2001 World Series, one of his teammates and closest friends stays in New York for the victory parade and flies back to the Dominican Republic afterwards. Since the D-Backs came back and won the game, Rivera's friend changed his ticket and flew home early. The flight he was originally scheduled to fly on crashed with no survivors.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Sept 19, 2011 21:33:51 GMT -5
Mariano is a fantastic pitcher and the greatest single-inning reliever ever. That said, as a San Diego, I find it odd the amount of Yankees fans who have felt the need to rip down Trevor Hoffman and his fantastic career as well in order to build up Rivera's.
Congrats to Rivera. That said, Enter Sandman is weak. He could have picked a lot better.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Sept 20, 2011 8:09:54 GMT -5
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hoyainspirit
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When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Sept 20, 2011 9:46:17 GMT -5
Blah, blah, blah. OK. Congrats, Mariano.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Sept 20, 2011 10:49:10 GMT -5
Rivera would be an interesting case study in whether he would have been any good as a starter.
He's almost a one-pitch pitcher at this point, but it's really good. Generally, two pitch pitchers struggle to be starters and almost every major league starter without ridiculous stuff needs two plus and one solid pitch to be good.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Sept 20, 2011 10:58:27 GMT -5
Congratualtions Mo. As far as Enter Sandman, it's far better than Back in Black in terms of context. In any case, Mariano didn't pick the music, the Yankee production crew did. He just didn't care to change it. Agree with SF about Hoffman. Not sure why that is other than everything gets pumped up in NY. I wonder if the cutter being a "sexier" pitch than the change has anything to do with it.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 20, 2011 11:36:52 GMT -5
Why would anyone try to belittle the accomplishments/work of Trevor Hoffman? Mariano Rivera's accomplishments stood out far before he officially passed Hoffman but that doesn't mean Hoffman sucked. Guy was a pro, and anyone who can maintain an elite level of consistency for a long period of time is a great player/deserves praise. Hoffman is also a very funny guy and knowing the sensitivity of some of the Yankee fanbase--they probably took what he would say about "hanging on to put the record out of reach" as if he was serious. Of course he wanted to be the best numbers wise--but he is like most athletes--wanted to play as long as possible and Yankee fans are so warped in thinking everything they have has to be #1 they don't sit back and enjoy the moments/players, often until they are gone--unless it's sentamentality for a guy who has been overhyped for years and has no business being on the roster right now--Hi Jorge. LOL
Thing that I remember/respect the most about Rivera--he was same guy after '01 and '04 as he was after the championships. Never has changed his demeanor or approach towards game.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Sept 20, 2011 11:52:56 GMT -5
Why would anyone try to belittle the accomplishments/work of Trevor Hoffman? Mariano Rivera's accomplishments stood out far before he officially passed Hoffman but that doesn't mean Hoffman sucked. Guy was a pro, and anyone who can maintain an elite level of consistency for a long period of time is a great player/deserves praise. Hoffman is also a very funny guy and knowing the sensitivity of some of the Yankee fanbase--they probably took what he would say about "hanging on to put the record out of reach" as if he was serious. Of course he wanted to be the best numbers wise--but he is like most athletes--wanted to play as long as possible and Yankee fans are so warped in thinking everything they have has to be #1 they don't sit back and enjoy the moments/players, often until they are gone--unless it's sentamentality for a guy who has been overhyped for years and has no business being on the roster right now--Hi Jorge. LOL Thing that I remember/respect the most about Rivera--he was same guy after '01 and '04 as he was after the championships. Never has changed his demeanor or approach towards game. This. I make no bones about hating the Yankees, but I'm certainly willing to acknowledge that Mariano is the best closer ever, hands down, record or no record. And this is not a slam at Hoffman, who was also a great, surefire HOF closer. Rivera is just a cut(ter) above. |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Sept 20, 2011 20:35:35 GMT -5
I don't know why, RDF. But I've read and talked to a bunch of Yankees fans who felt the need. I'm a huge Trevor fan but I have no problem admitting Mariano was better -- even, as you say, before he broke the record.
The Posnanski article phrased it perfectly. In the single-inning era, there's been Mariano, then Trevor, then a whole lot of five year or less careers.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 20, 2011 23:40:20 GMT -5
I don't know why, RDF. But I've read and talked to a bunch of Yankees fans who felt the need. I'm a huge Trevor fan but I have no problem admitting Mariano was better -- even, as you say, before he broke the record. The Posnanski article phrased it perfectly. In the single-inning era, there's been Mariano, then Trevor, then a whole lot of five year or less careers. Hoffman was a complete STUD and deserves all the recognition he got/if not more then he received. This wasn't Eric Gagne on HGH/PHD's who was a flash in pan--or Brian Wilson for that matter--yes I believe he's cheating or did cheat, so don't understand the commentary against Hoffman at all. Guy took the ball and did his job better then everyone/longer then everyone except 1 guy--who has proven to be the best ever at his position, yeah let's trash him.  |
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Sept 21, 2011 9:59:45 GMT -5
Ok, I guess I'm gonna be the bomb thrower here.
If Mariano played his whole career for horrible teams in San Diego, while Trevor was in pinstripes, would everyone still think Mariano was the best ever? Trevor and Mo have almost identical save percentages, and for years, when Hells Bells or Enter Sandman played, the other team started packing. The only real difference between the two is playoff saves, but that is entirely due to the fact that Mo was making deep playoff runs nearly every year in his career, while Trevor was watching at home.
So, the question again, if Trevor was the one with all the playoff saves for the most famous team in sports, while Mariano could only prove his stuff with a small market West Coast team that got to the first round of the playoffs roughly once every 5 years, who would be the greatest ever?
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Sept 21, 2011 11:23:23 GMT -5
Ok, I guess I'm gonna be the bomb thrower here. If Mariano played his whole career for horrible teams in San Diego, while Trevor was in pinstripes, would everyone still think Mariano was the best ever? Trevor and Mo have almost identical save percentages, and for years, when Hells Bells or Enter Sandman played, the other team started packing. The only real difference between the two is playoff saves, but that is entirely due to the fact that Mo was making deep playoff runs nearly every year in his career, while Trevor was watching at home. So, the question again, if Trevor was the one with all the playoff saves for the most famous team in sports, while Mariano could only prove his stuff with a small market West Coast team that got to the first round of the playoffs roughly once every 5 years, who would be the greatest ever? Interesting argument, SD, and it has some merit, but the fact is that you can't deal in what if's when determining who the GOAT is. Rivera does have the playoff performances to fall back on, and Trevor doesn't, so saying that Trevor would have performed as well under the glare of NY scrutiny and playoff pressure is pure speculation. |
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 21, 2011 11:36:12 GMT -5
Ok, I guess I'm gonna be the bomb thrower here. If Mariano played his whole career for horrible teams in San Diego, while Trevor was in pinstripes, would everyone still think Mariano was the best ever? Trevor and Mo have almost identical save percentages, and for years, when Hells Bells or Enter Sandman played, the other team started packing. The only real difference between the two is playoff saves, but that is entirely due to the fact that Mo was making deep playoff runs nearly every year in his career, while Trevor was watching at home. So, the question again, if Trevor was the one with all the playoff saves for the most famous team in sports, while Mariano could only prove his stuff with a small market West Coast team that got to the first round of the playoffs roughly once every 5 years, who would be the greatest ever? Can't answer that. I will say as a Yankee fan I'd NEVER trade Mariano Rivera for Trevor Hoffman and if you feel same as a Padre fan about Hoffman/Rivera, good for you. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Sept 21, 2011 15:15:28 GMT -5
If you're going to compare, you should also compare the competition. Mariano, throughout his career, faced tougher competition. That's not to say that Hoffman couldn't have done exactly what he did if the two switched teams. I just find it highly unlikely that that would be the case.
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PhillyHoya
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Post by PhillyHoya on Sept 21, 2011 19:24:11 GMT -5
While it is an interesting argument, Mo wins every time. Trevor could've left San Diego a number of times to go go elsewhere and didn't until he went to Milwaukee. Granted he gets points for loyalty but he knew the situation he was in.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 21, 2011 21:30:36 GMT -5
Mariano vs Hoffman? Not even close. That's not a shot at Trevor, it's just a reality check on how incredible Rivera has been his entire career. And not just compared to Relief pitchers, but to all pitchers. Linked below is just one article, this one by Cliff Corcoran for SI, that delves into the kind of stats SFHoya generally reveres. OK, yes, I am a Yankee fan and a huge fan of Mo in particular. But the numbers speak for themselves. Excerpts:
When Hoffman retired in January, I attempted to determine where he ranked among the game's greatest relief pitchers, but what was most striking about what I found was just how completely Rivera dominated the field.... a consistency and longevity unmatched in the game's history.
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Then there's the postseason. That's right, Rivera dominates his field that completely without even factoring in the 139 2/3 innings of a 0.71 ERA that he has contributed in the most important games of his career. That's the equivalent of two more seasons of some of the best pitching of his career against some of the stiffest competition...and, considering the milestone that prompted this piece, saved 42 additional games.
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Here are Rivera's stats for the last 16 years combined:
2.03 ERA (224 ERA+), 0.97 WHIP, 0.4 HR/9, 8.3 K/9, 1.9 BB/9, 4.32 K/BB
Rivera has averaged 71 innings pitched per season over those 16 years. Over that span, only three pitchers have equaled or bettered each of those rates in a single season of 50 or more innings pitched: Pedro Martinez in 1999, John Smoltz as a closer in 2003, and Jonathan Papelbon in 2006. Rivera has put those rates up over 16 seasons.
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Since 2003, Rivera has had an ERA+ below 200 in just one season and has put up these rates over the last nine years combined:
1.88 ERA (237 ERA+), 0.93 WHIP, 0.4 HR/9, 8.4 K/9, 1.5 BB/9, 5.47 K/BB -- over 588 games by a pitcher in his age 33 to 41 seasons.
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Need more? Well, Rivera's career ERA+ of 205 is the all-time record among pitchers with at least 1,000 innings pitched. Pedro Martinez is second at the list at 154, not even close, and the next relievers on the list are Wilhelm and Dan Quisenberry at 147. Read more: sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/cliff_corcoran/09/13/mariano.rivera.stats/index.html#ixzz1Yds7jBne |
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