A Dance With Dragons [Spoilers Abound]

[SFHoya99]

So I'm done, and wanted some discussion with rational folk (with eliminates most of the internet).

All thoughts welcome on both quality of the book as a reader/critic or commentary on characters/actions/theories, etc.

Also, everyone needs to address the last Jon Snow chapter. My brain says that he's one of the two absolute untouchables, but it's going to be a long six years, or whatever, isn't it? I assume Melisandre saves him in some way, but still. Editeding Bowen Marsh of all people.

[JB5]

A few days behind you, SF, and aiming to be rational.

SPOILER WARNING: I agree with you about Jon's chapter. Martin's toying with us there. I'd guess that he'll have miraculous recovery, but Martin could throw us a curve and have his body die and Jon relocate to his wolf. Perhaps the prologue was meant to forshadow this?

I enjoyed the book, especially that we are seeing some progress on key plot lines that we've been waiting on for at least a decade. While there wasn't a wtf scene on the level of the Red Wedding, there were plenty of plot twists (Tyrion meets Jorah, Varys' reappearance, Mance Rayder).

MAJOR SPOILERS

What I liked:

Ser Barristan kicking butt
Dragons getting mean
Martin made me feel bad for Theon
Arya's chapters -- getting a new face!
Bran's chapters -- finally meeting the children of the forest
Jon revitalizing the Night's Watch
The way some plot threads are starting to come together

What bothered me:

The introduction of a new Targaryan without any prior hints
Dany still doesn't get much to do
The way a few POV characters were dropped halfway through (Bran, Davos)
What was to point of the 3 guys from Dorne plot anyway?

Martin has set himself a huge task for the next book to combine the multiple plots and resolve all the cliffhangers: Jaime, Dany, Jon, Cersei, Davos, Stannis, Victarion, Theon, plus those left over from AFFC. It may take even longer than six years for the next one.

[SFHoya99]

Yeah, I think the chance that Jon is completely dead is low. I think there are two possible outs -- paralleling the intro with Ghost and having Merisande give him Kiss of Life that Thoros gave to Beric and Beric gave to unCat.

I loved the Reek storyline. Bran and Arya brough the traditional fun fantasy with characters you can easily love. (Have you read the Dunk and Egg short stories? A Thousand Eyes and One!).

I loved Dany/Barristan merely for the well done way it dealt with the troubles of an occupying force and the Dany/Daario plotline, which I thought was handled well, though it's creepy to see some in the fanbase call her a slut.

I also liked Jon's POV -- again, he made the right decisions in most but wildly underestimated Marsh's and Yarwick's discontent -- and I find it interesting that he was choosing blood over duty at the end. Was that a mistake?

On your bothers:

- The pace could have been picked up and this whole ADwD/AFfC structure is terrible -- it really takes a lot away and I wish not that Dance is out that they'd release a two volume book in the order that makes sense.

- I like the Quentyn Martell storyline. Good guy, bad decision. I just like that we're reminded of consequences, especially since Dany is running when things get hard and while Jon suffers some consequences, I don't think he dies.

- Aegon is likely a fake. Going back to the House of the Undying, there are a bunch of prophetic references to a "Mummer's Dragon." I'm not sure who he is -- one theory is Brandon/Ned's child with Ashara Dayne -- but I think Aegon's skull was crushed and this kid is someone raised through Varys' machinations to be Aegon but isn't.

I don't mind the slower pace -- the seeing new places and character development without big plot. But a lot has to happen and fast. I'm pretty shocked that Victarion didn't get to Mereen, that Tyrion isn't where ever he's going to be in Mereen and that Barristan is sitting on a powder keg and we get no resolution. I'm also pretty shocked we didn't get to see what is happening at Winterfell. I don't believe Ramsay's letter completely, but I hope that battle doesn't happen completely off-screen.

[rosslynhoya]

After the thrill of reading new Tyrion, Bran, Jon, and Dany chapters wore off in mid-book, I made the offhand remark that we were heading into serious Wheel of Time territory. I normally am fine with intrigue- and dialogue-heavy plots over action for action's sake, but seriously, most of the plotlines just seemed to consist of different teams meandering about from one side of a wasteland to another, and then the plotlines just rather abruptly sputtered to an unsatisfactory conclusion.

The only characters who get a well-developed plot arc with a beginning, climax, and an end are freaking Theon Greyjoy and Quentin Martell for crying out loud. Argh!

I seriously hope that we're not going to wait another 4+ years for the next volume, because I don't think the readership is going to wait as anxiously as they did for this one.

With that said, the rehabilitation of Theon was remarkably well done, as well executed as the rehab of Jaime Lannister over the course of ASoS and AFfC. This, I think, is Martin's greatest achievement thus far - deftly portraying characters with mixed heroic and villainous attributes, bringing us to empathize with individuals who carry out otherwise revolting deeds.
I think this dovetails neatly with the mood of the Dany plotline as well. No matter how virtuous and well-intended her anti-slavery campaign is, it's counterproductive and only causes suffering and anarchy under her rule. You want her character to succeed, but she's got to stop being so Ned Stark prissy when it comes to the messiness of ruling.

As for Jon Snow's death, I assume Melisandre is at least as capable as Thoros in providing the breath of life to bring him back to life. The bigger question for me has been whether Melisandre's prophecies are supposed to transfer from Stannis to Snow. Is Jon Snow meant to be Azor Ahai instead and Stannis was merely a tool to bring Melisandre to him? Would bringing him back from death at the hands of his Brothers bring him to Rh'llor, or will conflict between the Red God and the old gods become the new tension of his plotlines in the next book? Note- I'm also not sure whether Stannis is really dead, per Ramsey's raven. If Stannis and company are defeated, then why didn't Ramsey recover Theon and faux-Arya? It's an ambiguous resolution in any event.

I loved the Wyman Manderly plot twist, as seen through Davos's POV. I think Davos is a really undervalued character who's more than carried his weight (and I'm glad that reports of his death in AFfC were proven to be premature). If only Martin could have found space to keep his story going in this volume (presumably he went off to Skagos or someplace equally terrifying in search of Rickon and Osha?). Seeing the Freys start to get their comeuppance was a huge positive for this installment.

The Arya chapters were disappointing my view, seeing as they didn't really contribute to any of the other storylines. I think their only virtue was in answering a FAQ from AFfC regarding what her blindness was meant to symbolize (my guess had been that she wasn't punished but was elevated to a higher level of acolyte status, but it wasn't the most burning question for me). At the opposite end of the spectrum, Jaime's brief appearance in midbook, ending the siege against Tytos Blackwood, was one of the best-crafted scenes in my opinion. It's just too bad that it had so little impact on the rest of the story -- except as an echo of AFfC's theme: southern Westeros seemingly returns to normalcy after the War of Five Kings while everything goes to pot elsewhere in the world.

Final and possibly least important gripe: white walkers, really? ;-)

[JB5]

SF: I took the mummer (in "mummer's dragon") to be Varys, given his origins story. So he could be a real dragon, but a tool of mummer Varys. The reason he could be a fake is the conversation Ilyrio had with Tyrion about power being based on acceptance. If Young Griff is real, and is part of what will restore stability in the last book, I will be disappointed that he appeared suddenly in book 5. Of course, there's one way to be sure....

I think the Red Priests' view of the world will turn out to be flawed. If there is an Azor Ahai, he/she is likely to be as much a destructive figure as a champion of light. Given Martin's interest in creating characters who are neither black nor white, it would be natural that the end state should be a balance of ice and fire, not victory for one or the other.

I have to say that Ramsey's message took me a bit aback. The defeat of Stannis didn't ring quite true, but I can't think of another plausible explanation. I guess we'll know in 4-5 years.

[SFHoya99]

Jul 25, 2011 15:24:13 GMT -5 JB5 said:

SF: I took the mummer (in "mummer's dragon") to be Varys, given his origins story. So he could be a real dragon, but a tool of mummer Varys. The reason he could be a fake is the conversation Ilyrio had with Tyrion about power being based on acceptance. If Young Griff is real, and is part of what will restore stability in the last book, I will be disappointed that he appeared suddenly in book 5. Of course, there's one way to be sure....

I think the Red Priests' view of the world will turn out to be flawed. If there is an Azor Ahai, he/she is likely to be as much a destructive figure as a champion of light. Given Martin's interest in creating characters who are neither black nor white, it would be natural that the end state should be a balance of ice and fire, not victory for one or the other.

I have to say that Ramsey's message took me a bit aback. The defeat of Stannis didn't ring quite true, but I can't think of another plausible explanation. I guess we'll know in 4-5 years.

Oooh, that's an interesting take on Aegon. I have to admit I'm mentally vested in Aegon being a fake -- I'm a bit tired of dead people coming back to life and all the baby swaps -- a good ol' fashioned deception is more my style.

But ever if Aegon is the Mummer's Dragon as in Varys' Dragon it may still imply he's fake.

---------------------------------------

There's a lot of views as to who could be Azor Ahai, and is Azor Ahai Reborn the exact same as the Prince that was Promised - two sides of the same coin or two different prophecies? Or could it manifest itself in more than one person (The dragon has three heads).

Dany fulfilled many of the prophecies for herself both in her actual birth and her rebirth. But there's a goods number of people out there pointing out that you can force a bit of Azor Ahai prophecy on Jon when he is killed - salt and smoke, a bleeding star (Ser Patrek), etc.

I never would have caught it, but....

I love how Martin has handled religions to date, and I would love it even more if an individual would have religious doubts and have it be a crux of their storyline. Perhaps that's Jon.

I don't think Martin will have a religion be "right" in validation. The Red God has power, the Faceless Men have power, the old Gods have power (we see with Bran) all in some respects. The Seven and the Drowned God don't manifest magically, but I hope Martin never weighs in on one being "right." Uncertainty is the crux of human religious experience -- or perhaps certainty in the face of empirical uncertainty. Martin's world has magic, but I don't think he's every going to assert for certain it is a God's action.

If anything, the only correlation we know is that the rise of Magic coincides with the birth of Dragons. Chicken or egg, there?

[SFHoya99]

Jul 25, 2011 13:08:32 GMT -5 rosslynhoya said:

After the thrill of reading new Tyrion, Bran, Jon, and Dany chapters wore off in mid-book, I made the offhand remark that we were heading into serious Wheel of Time territory.

Oh come on, it's still not close. Jon didn't spend the whole book wishing Robb was here, because he'd know how to talk to girls.

And Arya didn't tug her braid at every single comment.

No one took control of a situation through pure force of will, and Martin doesn't feel the need to tell you that each time you see them.

I could go on. At his best, Jordan wasn't in Martin's class. But while it meanders more than the first three books, Martin is nowhere near Jordan level.

The only characters who get a well-developed plot arc with a beginning, climax, and an end are freaking Theon Greyjoy and Quentin Martell for crying out loud. Argh!

There's a matter of degree here. I think Dany has a story -- it's not what everyone expected, but it has a climax and a thought progression. Jon as well -- though the cliffhanger may be kind of silly there.

I actually think most characters had a climax, it's just that most of them were character building rather than straight plot.

---------------

I read an article by his editor (who I do agree could have done a better job) which basically said, "this isn't how we'd have ended it but the book was already too big, the wait too long and he was going to need another year to write the end to Mereen/Davos/Jon/Stannis, etc."

Okay, they weren't nearly that specific, but they cut 100 mEditedcript pages from ADwD to TWoW -- and it's partial and unrefined. That's not a ton -- 70-80 pages, I think, but it's also not done.

I think at the end of the day the failing of ADwD and AFfC will lie almost only in structure and size -- recombine them and the apparently the beginning of TWoW and re-arrange a bit and it will probably be a nice, character driven pause in the action.

After all, Martin originally wanted a five year gap -- he was simply going to start later in the story. He found himself writing too much backstory into the book so he scrapped it and started AFfC instead. I wonder if that was the right idea. What we're reading now is basically stuff he intended on skipping. I get that there's a lot important to know, but I'm not surprised it's not as strong. The bummer is that the book seems too much a part in the series and not standalone enough.

[Bando]

So I started A Game of Thrones a month ago, and have read straight through to where I am now, halfway through A Dance With Dragons. Soon, I will be able to complain about the next book not being out like everyone else.

In the meantime, season 2 is shooting now and I hope Peter Dinklage wins the Emmy.

[SFHoya99]

Nice. I take it you are enjoying it.

[Bando]

So now that I finished the book, I'm going back and reading reviews. This one in Mother Jones hits the nail on the head:

But the multiple-POV technique also has some glaring weaknesses. Martin is fairly aggressive about killing off even the best-loved of his characters (the series has been praised for its "realism" on that front), but characters still tend to proliferate. The first book, A Game of Thrones, was told from eight different viewpoints; the fourth book, A Feast for Crows, had 17; A Dance With Dragons has 18. Those numbers actually understate the problem, though, because much of A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons take place contemporaneously. A series with around 30 point-of-view characters and at least a dozen ongoing storylines is inevitably going to start fraying at the seams...

Martin's fear of fact-checkers seems to have done a good deal of damage to A Dance With Dragons. A writer who has become obsessed with travel timelines and minor details will produce a book that seems, well, obsessed with travel timelines and minor details.

Thoughts?

[SFHoya99]

I think the symptom is somewhat right, but I'm not sure the cause is. It might be; don't get me wrong -- it's pretty common for writers to worry too much about that crap and forget the good stuff.

But I don't think it is number of characters. It's a bit disingenuous to compare AGOT and Feast and Dance without acknowledging that say, ASOS was pretty good with a lot of POVs.

I do think Books 1-3 were really well planned. Martin claims to be a "gardener" as opposed to an "architect" but he really knew where he as going. This middle section was actually unplanned.

And I think Martin has changed a bit as a writer. Some of his characters could even be boring him. But at least you can tell I think he wanted to write something here completely different than the first three books. Book 4 is denouement and really begins to show the effect of war on the lower class. Book 4 is all about some fantastical elements and locations -- it feels like a travelogue at time because it was intended that way. It's not the same book as 1-3 and people that love those are going to be a bit disappointed.

One last element is that I think he simply needs a stronger editor versus his fame. I think there's an ending to this book, but he didn't want to cut, hadn't finished it and the publisher needed the cash and he didn't want something shorter.

------

The final piece for me is expectations. Too many people out there are angry it didn't happen like they want. I read too much crap like "Tyrion didn't even become Dany's advisor." Perhaps the story isn't going like you think? Just enjoy it.

[JB5]

While it goes without saying that some POVs are more gripping than others, I actually am curious to see how Martin will follow through to tell his whole story. The level of interest of the various POVs also changes from book to book, e.g. Dany in book 2 was mostly boring; who could have guessed that Theon would have some of the best parts of ADWD?

I, for one, also appreciate Martin's attention to detail, even though I wish he could speed his process a bit. I'm the sort of reader who would be bothered seeing a character at the Wall who had seemingly just left King's Landing or an army marching hundreds of miles in a few days.

[Bando]

I felt that Quentin Martell's chapters were unnecessary, and his actions could have been relayed by Barristan or something. Victarion was pretty unnecessary too, and could have waited until the next book.

[Boz]

I scrolled all the way to the end so as not to read anything, but just to call myself out for being such a slow reader. It's been such a busy summer, I've only made it about a 2/3 of the way through. (Man, I remember back in grad school when I could read 300-400 pages a day with little to no problem - no joke; I guess physical abilities aren't the only things that diminish with age; now I'm like 20 pages and sawing logs).

But I hope to catch up soon & share in the conversation. I am really enjoying this book though (when I can make time to sit down with it). So much better than the last one. That's all I'll say for now.

[SFHoya99]

Sept 13, 2011 13:25:43 GMT -5 Bando said:

I felt that Quentin Martell's chapters were unnecessary, and his actions could have been relayed by Barristan or something. Victarion was pretty unnecessary too, and could have waited until the next book.

I loved the Quentyn storyline in and of itself. If you are being very directive, yes, it doesn't forward the plot all that much, but I thought it was a great little story for itself -- the traditional hero acting kind of dumb and getting roasted. Awesome.

I'm not a huge Iron Islands fan, so I don't need Victarion, period. That said, I assume his conversion -- even partial -- to the Red God is going to play a role here. The problem with Victarion's storyline, and Tyrion's and a couple others is that the climax wasn't much of one.

Tyrion signs on with a mercenary company? Victarion learns there's a way to master the horn? Umm, shouldn't we have more.

Jon's ending was great -- I know a lot of people dislike it but it was a climax and unexpected. Cersei was phenomenal. I'm fine with Aegon building and ending there.Theon's was great.

But Stannis & Crew being off-screen? Davos disappearing? Arya still training? Bran's storyline rocked, but there was no climax at all. Barristan? I mean, there was something there but the lack of a battle definitely was anticlimatic.

And Dany's ending was interesting even if perhaps a bit anticlimatic. Which would have been fine except for so many other plots -- Stannis & the Boltons namely -- ending off-screen.

[Bando]

I actually thought that everything that happened in The North (Bran/Jon/Davos/Theon/Asha) was pretty great. I'm actually fine with the Battle of Winterfell happening off-screen, as there's some ambiguity there (why does Ramsey think Theon and Jeyne are at the Wall?)

Jon can't actually be dead. He just can't. Mellisandre's going to resurrect him or something, and I still think he's the offspring of Rheagar and Lyanna. Still, his was probably the best story in the ADWD.

Davos' story was a little short. And who really gives a Edited about Rickon?

I thought Dany's ending was strong. Still, she better leave Meereen in "The Winds of Winter". We get it, she's trying to rule but can't. Seriously, we get it.

[rosslynhoya]

Sept 13, 2011 16:07:08 GMT -5 Bando said:

Jon can't actually be dead. He just can't. Mellisandre's going to resurrect him or something, and I still think he's the offspring of Rheagar and Lyanna. Still, his was probably the best story in the ADWD.

If Jon is Rhaegar's son, then he is a Targaryean and will inevitably find his story meshed with Dany as she looks for the other two dragonriders.

Martin does a phenomenal job of sprinkling all of these little asides about Ned Stark knocking up local women all across the Seven Kingdoms, which must have been a calculated ploy on Ned's part in order to keep his best friend from murdering his sister's son. It adds a humorous note when re-reading the series to see the number of times a character says "Ned Stark couldn't possibly have fathered a bastard!" when in fact, he in all likelihood didn't.

[Bando]

Sept 13, 2011 16:25:45 GMT -5 rosslynhoya said:

Sept 13, 2011 16:07:08 GMT -5 Bando said:

Jon can't actually be dead. He just can't. Mellisandre's going to resurrect him or something, and I still think he's the offspring of Rheagar and Lyanna. Still, his was probably the best story in the ADWD.

If Jon is Rhaegar's son, then he is a Targaryean and will inevitably find his story meshed with Dany as she looks for the other two dragonriders.

Martin does a phenomenal job of sprinkling all of these little asides about Ned Stark knocking up local women all across the Seven Kingdoms, which must have been a calculated ploy on Ned's part in order to keep his best friend from murdering his sister's son. It adds a humorous note when re-reading the series to see the number of times a character says "Ned Stark couldn't possibly have fathered a bastard!" when in fact, he in all likelihood didn't.

My thoughts exactly. Although if Jon isn't Rhaegar's son, that's totally plausible as well. If he is, then the Song of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targareyn) is completely about him.

[SFHoya99]

There's simply no way that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I mean, it's completely and utterly obvious. If he's not, there better be a really good explanation, b/c it really wouldn't make sense.

He's the Prince that was Promised (and "his is the song of Ice and Fire") -- or possibly one of them. Dany definitely lines up with Azor Ahai (as does Jon in some ways) and who says they have to be one person?

But Martin has also said the title's meaning is layered, and so it may refer to Jon, Starks and Targaryens, Man and Others, Dragons and Others, Passion and Reason, etc.

[Bando]

My baseless speculation: Dany's other riders are Jon and Aegon, Jon and Dany marry and happily rule Westeros. Or not, as Aegon has the better claim. Hmm. I guess he's going to have to die for this to work.

Also, we're going to have to meet Howland Reed (Meera and Jojen's father) for this to work, as he's the only person still alive who was at the Tower of Joy when this all went down.