aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Mar 9, 2005 15:10:41 GMT -5
When you claimed Cambridge was only saying his argument because the Hoyas were on the bubble. do you think it was said because he actually believes that having teams with losing records or teams that are there solely because of an automatic bid ruins the integrity of the NCAA tourney?
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Mar 9, 2005 15:13:06 GMT -5
I only brought up GW and AU to point out to aggypryd that my motivations in this conversation weren't driven by my perception that Georgetown was getting snubbed but by discussions with my two brothers about how good small conference teams can crap out in their tourneys.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Mar 9, 2005 15:19:25 GMT -5
I only brought up GW and AU to point out to aggypryd that my motivations in this conversation weren't driven by my perception that Georgetown was getting snubbed but by discussions with my two brothers about how good small conference teams can crap out in their tourneys. I apologize since it seems like I interpreted your post incorrectly...not because SFHoya is about to Edited in his damn pants...
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 9, 2005 15:20:16 GMT -5
do you think it was said because he actually believes that having teams with losing records or teams that are there solely because of an automatic bid ruins the integrity of the NCAA tourney? I'll take Cambridge at his word. I believe similar to him. I personally am not a huge fan of Cinderellas. I think what is fair in sports is for the best 64 teams to go. If there were a way to schedule 330 teams fairly, I'd be all for pulling automatic bids. If Oakland is one of the Top 65 teams in America, they should go. If they aren't, they shouldn't. I know everyone else gets all warm and fuzzy over a Cinderella, but I'm a big believer in merit, especially in sports. You can still have a conference tournament, still have a conference winner. Just now, the winner doesn't get killed by Duke a week later unless they've earned the right to do so.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 9, 2005 15:20:58 GMT -5
I apologize since it seems like I interpreted your post incorrectly...not because SFHoya is about to Edited in his damn pants... That's "Money" to you...
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Mar 9, 2005 15:26:58 GMT -5
I'll take Cambridge at his word. I believe similar to him. I personally am not a huge fan of Cinderellas. I think what is fair in sports is for the best 64 teams to go. If there were a way to schedule 330 teams fairly, I'd be all for pulling automatic bids. If Oakland is one of the Top 65 teams in America, they should go. If they aren't, they shouldn't. I know everyone else gets all warm and fuzzy over a Cinderella, but I'm a big believer in merit, especially in sports. You can still have a conference tournament, still have a conference winner. Just now, the winner doesn't get killed by Duke a week later unless they've earned the right to do so. But it's those people that are saying that 'who is more deserving' is what I'm worried about... We should know that everyone doesn't get in on merit...
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HoyaSox04
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Post by HoyaSox04 on Mar 9, 2005 15:29:13 GMT -5
I'll take Cambridge at his word. I believe similar to him. I personally am not a huge fan of Cinderellas. I think what is fair in sports is for the best 64 teams to go. If there were a way to schedule 330 teams fairly, I'd be all for pulling automatic bids. If Oakland is one of the Top 65 teams in America, they should go. If they aren't, they shouldn't. I know everyone else gets all warm and fuzzy over a Cinderella, but I'm a big believer in merit, especially in sports. You can still have a conference tournament, still have a conference winner. Just now, the winner doesn't get killed by Duke a week later unless they've earned the right to do so. So, in essence, what you're saying is, the only conferences that can send teams to the tournament are the BE, SEC, ACC, B10, P10, B12, and plus the WCC/WAC sometimes, maybe in leap years? I'm just checking, because, as it looks like, the top 65 teams in America only come from those conferences. And now, you would be discounting Oral Roberts, the team that this very argument started about. Was Manhattan last year one of the top 65 teams in America? Maybe. probably not. Did they change the landscape of the NCAA last year? Yes. Your argument is inherently flawed. Cambridge's argument makes much more sense than yours does. So back off, Currency - get out of MY grillpiece.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 9, 2005 15:29:37 GMT -5
But it's those people that are saying that 'who is more deserving' is what I'm worried about... We should know that everyone doesn't get in on merit... I agree on that, to some extent. You do have to figure out who is deserving. I don't think there has been any egregious errors, recently. Where a team is so clearly deserving yet don't get in. And if we pulled automatic bids, we wouldn't be talking about the 45th or 50th best team not getting in, we'd be talking about the 65th or 66th best team not getting in. The current system is not perfect.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 9, 2005 15:48:52 GMT -5
Oakland's OOC Opponents: Xavier Illinois Marquette Texas A&M Kansas St. Saint Louis Michigan State Yep, they just waited to get lucky in March... But what did they do in their conference play? They didn't play Illinois or Michigan State in league play. That is where ORU proved itself over a 16-game schedule going 13-3 while Oakland was 7-9. A three-day tournament to determine the bid makes the 16-game regular season irrelevant. Everyone should have the chance to go to the dance but by performing in the regular season, not by having one good weekend.
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HoyaSox04
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Post by HoyaSox04 on Mar 9, 2005 16:02:16 GMT -5
First off, I showed their OOC schedule to prove a point - Cambridge was trying to say that teams like Oakland could not do anything and just wait around for one weekend in March before playing well, which isn't true. It's not like they had a cupcake scheduled that they walked through half-asleep and lost all those games, and then just got lucky for three games.
2nd, you can't say the in-season games dont matter:
A) They determine the seedings for the conference tournament, which automatically favors the #1 team in the Conference.
B) They prepare you for the conference tournament because you have to face every team in your conference. Oakland played ORU twice already this season and lost to them by 5 and 7 points respectively. Don't you think that the coaches and players learned something and then used it to beat ORU in the tournament? I think those games definitely mattered for ORU.
And, now, I'm sick of people saying how this is terrible, that this isn't the way things should be. Well, this IS the way things ARE, and ORU SHOULD have known all along that whatever they did during the regular season all came down to the tournament, and they SHOULD have gone out and taken care of business against an inferior opponent. But they DIDN'T. And not because of a fluke play - Oakland outplayed them in the game.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 9, 2005 16:04:41 GMT -5
So, in essence, what you're saying is, the only conferences that can send teams to the tournament are the BE, SEC, ACC, B10, P10, B12, and plus the WCC/WAC sometimes, maybe in leap years? I'm just checking, because, as it looks like, the top 65 teams in America only come from those conferences. And now, you would be discounting Oral Roberts, the team that this very argument started about. Was Manhattan last year one of the top 65 teams in America? Maybe. probably not. Did they change the landscape of the NCAA last year? Yes. Your argument is inherently flawed. Cambridge's argument makes much more sense than yours does. So back off, Currency - get out of MY grillpiece. If the best 65 teams are from those conferences, yes. But I doubt all 65 are from those conferences. Looking at last year, these non-BCS teams would've made it strictly based on RPI (which I don't believe is the best indicator): Gonzaga Cincinnati Louisville Southern Illinois Nevada BYU Memphis UAB Charlotte Xavier Utah DePaul Dayton ManhattanUtah St. Western Michigan UTEP Richmond VCU Murray St. Northern Iowa ETSU Central Florida Rice St. Louis Pacific Pacific and St. Louis would've battled it out in the play-in, then had a real 16 v 1! Teams Out in My Scenario: Air Force Lousiana Lafayette Illinois Chicago Vermont Monmouth Eastern Washington Princeton Valpo Liberty Lehigh UTSA Alabama St. Florida A&M Teams In: LSU Utah St. Georgia Notre Dame Oklahoma Missourri Virginia Florida State Michigan Rutgers Colorado Rice St. Louis
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Mar 9, 2005 16:08:29 GMT -5
Oakland's OOC Opponents: Xavier Illinois Marquette Texas A&M Kansas St. Saint Louis Michigan State Yep, they just waited to get lucky in March... So let's see, that's pretty impressive, but they: Lost at Xavier #140 Lost at Illinois #4 Lost vs Marquette #80 Lost at Texas A&M #58 Lost at Missouri #84 Lost at Kansas St. #108 Lost at Saint Louis #183 Lost at Michigan State #20 I'm sorry, but if they had one even one of the game you mentioned I might feel like they deserved it, but seriously. Come on. They lost all those games. Oral Roberts on the other hand: Won at N. Arizona #291 Won at Saint Louis #183 Won vs Loyola #215 Won at Tulsa #271 Won at Utah Valley St. #244 Won at N. Colorado #300 Won vs Georgetown #92 Lost vs Hawaii #142 Lost at UAB #62 Won vs Utah Valley St. #244 Lost at Indiana #68 I think the evidence speaks for itself....
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Mar 9, 2005 16:17:28 GMT -5
I agree with those who think the conference tournaments produce fluke results and put bad teams in the tournament over good ones. I disagree with taking away automatic bids, because I believe there are legitimate gripes with the way the big boys schedule the little guys and sometimes it is impossible to get a good enough RPI if you play in certain conferences, although arguably the new RPI is starting to fix that.
Ultimately, there are 26 automatic bids every year that go to non-BCS schools, that seems like plenty of chances for Cinderella stories with sob stories about how Syracuse would never give them a home game. I will give each conference their own method for choosing their representative for those spots, but I will not listen to any complaints if their method of choosing a conference champion does not select the best team. Like the NIT and the bowls, I would exclude any team with a losing record after the regular season and I would not give their bid to the regular season champ from the league that was greedy or stupid enough to hold a conference tournament that produced such crazy results. A playoff game in low-major conferences to get yourself on ESPN is fine, but anything beyond that is silly and designed to water down the NCAA tournament even more than it already is.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Mar 9, 2005 16:26:26 GMT -5
Ultimately, there are 26 automatic bids every year that go to non-BCS schools, that seems like plenty of chances for Cinderella stories with sob stories about how Syracuse would never give them a home game. I will give each conference their own method for choosing their representative for those spots, but I will not listen to any complaints if their method of choosing a conference champion does not select the best team. Like the NIT and the bowls, I would exclude any team with a losing record after the regular season and I would not give their bid to the regular season champ from the league that was greedy or stupid enough to hold a conference tournament that produced such crazy results. A playoff game in low-major conferences to get yourself on ESPN is fine, but anything beyond that is silly and designed to water down the NCAA tournament even more than it already is. why don't you just get rid of all the non-bcs schools and then you don't have to worry about any of them tainting the NCAA tournament...
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HoyaSox04
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Post by HoyaSox04 on Mar 9, 2005 16:32:21 GMT -5
I love the fact that the BCS now has a foothold in college basketball arguments...
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 9, 2005 16:34:47 GMT -5
Showing the real effect - this would've been the RPI matchups for the Top 12 seeds last year:
Duke v Pacific/St. Louis Kentucky v Rice St. Joe's v Central Florida Mississippi St v ETSU
UConn v Washington Oklahoma St v Northern Iowa Stanford v Murray State Pitt v Colorado
Gonzaga v Rutgers Texas v Michigan Cincy v VCU Wisconsin v FSU
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