guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,607
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Post by guru on Jan 13, 2011 21:58:33 GMT -5
Either this thread is attracting newbies and folks who haven't posted much in years or there's a serious sock puppet party going on in Hoyatalk tonight!
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skkhoya07
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 271
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Post by skkhoya07 on Jan 13, 2011 22:21:48 GMT -5
new to posting on the board (been following for years), but not new to the program
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mapei
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,088
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Post by mapei on Jan 13, 2011 23:02:57 GMT -5
I think it's ridiculous to say that we have a systematic problem. Last year we closed the regular season plus the BET ranked #14 in the country. In 2008 we won the BE regular season and closed the regular season plus the BET ranked #8. In 2007 we won the BE regular season, BET, and went to the final four. In 2006 we went to the sweet 16.
That's not good enough for ya? Sheesh. Yes, we had a down year in 2009, and yes, we got upset in a single-elimination tournament a couple of times, once to the hottest team and player in the tourney when our big man was glued to the bench with dubious foul trouble. But that doesn't make or break a season, much less a program. The truth is that we have been very successful since III arrived.
And I didn't even want him hired. I thought it was time to break with the whole JT thing altogether and start afresh with someone outside the "family." I was tired of having pops always looming over the program, like he still seems to. But I was wrong about III. He's been really good and we now have a consistent top-20 program that, in a lucky year, can be even better than that. In the meantime we haven't had a single academic, ethics, or crime scandal, unlike, say, 'cuse, UConn, or most of the NCAA football teams.
I call that success, not failure.
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,350
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Post by tashoya on Jan 13, 2011 23:22:25 GMT -5
I think it's ridiculous to say that we have a systematic problem. Last year we closed the regular season plus the BET ranked #14 in the country. In 2008 we won the BE regular season and closed the regular season plus the BET ranked #8. In 2007 we won the BE regular season, BET, and went to the final four. In 2006 we went to the sweet 16. That's not good enough for ya? Sheesh. Yes, we had a down year in 2009, and yes, we got upset in a single-elimination tournament a couple of times, once to the hottest team and player in the tourney when our big man was glued to the bench with dubious foul trouble. But that doesn't make or break a season, much less a program. The truth is that we have been very successful since III arrived. And I didn't even want him hired. I thought it was time to break with the whole JT thing altogether and start afresh with someone outside the "family." I was tired of having pops always looming over the program, like he still seems to. But I was wrong about III. He's been really good and we now have a consistent top-20 program that, in a lucky year, can be even better than that. In the meantime we haven't had a single academic, ethics, or crime scandal, unlike, say, 'cuse, UConn, or most of the NCAA football teams. I call that success, not failure. Logic? Here? How dare you! Reading other opinions, I thought we were headed for mid-major status. Now I actually have to use my brain which takes energy and I hate the taste of Red Bull. On a positive not, it seems bronxie's third-person rants may have found their well deserved headstone here (at least temporarily).
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Post by JohnnyJones on Jan 14, 2011 0:24:16 GMT -5
I think it's ridiculous to say that we have a systematic problem. Last year we closed the regular season plus the BET ranked #14 in the country. In 2008 we won the BE regular season and closed the regular season plus the BET ranked #8. In 2007 we won the BE regular season, BET, and went to the final four. In 2006 we went to the sweet 16. That's not good enough for ya? Sheesh. Yes, we had a down year in 2009, and yes, we got upset in a single-elimination tournament a couple of times, once to the hottest team and player in the tourney when our big man was glued to the bench with dubious foul trouble. But that doesn't make or break a season, much less a program. The truth is that we have been very successful since III arrived. And I didn't even want him hired. I thought it was time to break with the whole JT thing altogether and start afresh with someone outside the "family." I was tired of having pops always looming over the program, like he still seems to. But I was wrong about III. He's been really good and we now have a consistent top-20 program that, in a lucky year, can be even better than that. In the meantime we haven't had a single academic, ethics, or crime scandal, unlike, say, 'cuse, UConn, or most of the NCAA football teams. I call that success, not failure. Nice post.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 14, 2011 0:40:15 GMT -5
To fire JT3 would be positively Esherickian.
I don't agree with everything he does, but I think he is adapting - maybe not as quickly as I'd like, but there are reasons to hope.
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idhoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,177
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Post by idhoya on Jan 14, 2011 1:04:58 GMT -5
Adams has a post up game. Hopkins, Trawick and Bolden all are very long and athletic. I see the recruits changing. III has adapted; first step: Bring in Kirby. Every recruit he's targeted is long and athletic. And they seem to have a motor and defend. the 12 and 13 classes will define this program goin forward.
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HoyaFanNY
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Never throw to the venus on a spider 3 Y banana!
Posts: 4,992
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jan 14, 2011 6:09:06 GMT -5
we need a defensive force in the middle. our best years defensively under III were when roy was here. roy eliminated teams from going inside. it made our perimeter defense better because they knew roy had the basket if they got beat so they could play in the guys shirt.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jan 14, 2011 13:45:33 GMT -5
To comment on a few of the things posted instead of having to answer each one:
1. Recruit wise--Adams is what they've lacked, a physical/tough kid who has some skill but needs polish--combine him with Moses--and you have the two most physically imposing bigs Georgetown will have had under III. Add Nate to mix--who is a physical player, and that is nice size/strength upfront.
2. Mikael Hopkins is going to be one of those boom/bust recruits. He possesses talent to be a great player but has the all too familiar approach that I personally don't care for in some of III's teams/players. He's very engaged one game, and you might not see him for 3-4 game stretch play anything like that and wonder if he cares about the sport. Then he'll drop a double double and you think he's an All American. For the people who have seen him--they'll likely be pleasantly surprised at times and then see what they've seen as the fans who haven't seen him will think he's greatest players or "hidden gem" only to be shocked when he lays his less then intense stretch.
My personal hope is that playing with more physical players in practice makes him more aggressive-because the talent is there--but in recruiting, my preference is to go with guys who are known to bring it consistently--and not have to worry about effort. Since he's a Hoya--I hope he finds it and material is more then there--but is the attitude/work ethic? That makes him a boom/bust type. *if you want to see him play--Mikael and DeMatha will take on Hoya '12 recruit Kyle Anderson and St. Anthony's on ESPN at 4 EST.
3. The reference to Iowa here is interesting but you have to know why Alford got run out of town:---attendance and character or lack of it being brought into program and how he handled himself as a man.
Alford got his opportunity and did well--winning 2 Big 10 Tournament Titles and getting some nice recruits--however he/his wife behavior and snobby attitude in community didn't help things. Wanting people to give him freebies because he's the "coach", having work done with their home and not expecting to have to pay for it--prime example--being lawn service or repair. He was also involved in a little "Hot Tub" incident with someone who wasn't Mrs. Alford and while she was/can be an overbearing pain in the ass--cheating on her (allegedly) with one of the young members of their church isn't best way to handle things.
Type of players Alford brought in were also sketchy--from getting arrested, to failing drug tests, etc....it was always something--and the type of players he wanted to bring in with his trust sidekick former GTech player Noodles Neal--well they fit a lot better in New Mexico then the Big 10. The attendance suffered--and Iowa a place that used to sell out under the popular Dr. Tom Davis started having empty seats and combine that with garbage above--well it was "Why don't you find a job to interview for Steve".
Moving to Todd Lickliter--Iowa got their "system coach"--a hot name from making some noise in March with Butler who gave Florida their toughest game in '07 NCAA's. Lickliter had no concept of how to manage a big time program. He recruited stiffs who fit his system but can't play basketball at the elite conference level. He spoke of the "Butler Way" as if it was this symbol of perfect basketball--which in Lickliter's mind consisted of playing games in the high 40's/low 50's and not letting anyone play on instinct--the amount of transfers in his brief time there due to the hatred of his "system" was near 10 players in less then 3 years with rumors that 4/5 were leaving last year or wanting out of their LOI's if he returned. Attendance for games was beyond sickly. I'll post a link in a few minutes that is actual film of Big 10 game attendance--where last year the last straw was Illinois fans buying tickets under the basket at the Iowa game in Carver Hawkeye Arena, (the basket right by the Iowa Bench) and right before tipoff--they took off their coats/sweatshirts to reveal they were Orange Krush fans and were loudest fans at the game. BTW--with them there-believe the attendance was around 4.500---and that is being generous. Actual people in attendance at most Iowa games last year was around 3,000 in a 15,500 arena.
For people who detested the Esherick Era of apathy, Lickliter took things so low to a depth of awfulness, the fans are still reluctant to return out of fear he and the "Butler Way" are still boring them.
Fran McCaffery is a great hire for what they need. He doesn't believe in a system--he believes in letting the players play which the players/fans/administration love. He's going to recruit well and has already returned the enthusiasm and recruiting levels to what a big time program should operate as--especially one with facilities and Big 10 money. Where Lickliter was known to pull guys who would dare score on a fastbreak or open shot and ALWAYS called timeouts if the other team got dunks--yes--he did this at big time level as if he was coaching a CYO game and a 5th grader got a dunk. McCaffery chastises guys who pass up open shots, don't play aggressive and think too much.
Letting guys play/show their talent is what he believes in-and if you do that--you not only will start getting players--you will start winning--because the game is about the players--not the guys wearing suits. McCaffery has a good staff in place too--great recruiters (Kirk Speraw is a great evaluator of talent, Andrew Francis is a good young coach as well) and will turn this back into a decent/top tier Big 10 program. He is stuck with Lickliter garbage--but his best player is Nate Lubick's former teammate Melsaan Basabe who stuck out last year in game I watched St. Mark's play against QEA and Aaron Bowen, Quincy Miller, etc......Basabe is putting up numbers and will make Big 10 All FR team and is a 6'9 forward. He's in lead for former Hoya target Eric Katenda as well--as Iowa needs size/athleticism and he's after every point guard you can think of--while Lickliter recruited guys who didn't even have D1 scholarships--and often thought a long distance recruit would be a guy in Northern Iowa.
To compare Iowa to Georgetown basketball is so far off it cannot be stated enough. I'd beg for Esherick to be re-hired before I'd ever want Alford or Lickliter to coach.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jan 14, 2011 13:50:37 GMT -5
This video is courtesy of WHO-TV in Des Moines done by the hilarious Chris Hassel and sums up Iowans feelings about the Lickliter era or ERROR as they see it. Lickliter's awful son Jon was STARTING last year--and was a walk on--who is now at NAIA Marian College--and does NOT start. It was basically the last straw for Hawkeye fans who were so down they started mocking him--and this was embraced by the fans--especially after the inept AD Gary Barta chasisted Hassel and went on the warpath to defend the Lickliters.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 14, 2011 14:51:39 GMT -5
To compare Iowa to Georgetown basketball is so far off it cannot be stated enough. I'd beg for Esherick to be re-hired before I'd ever want Alford or Lickliter to coach. If anything you're just backing up what I said. The fans clamored for the high profile Alford to be fired (someone who had a moderate amount of success at Iowa, and was able to attract players to a school that has a very hard time recruiting for basketball.) . When the fans got their wish, they rejoiced at the mid major wunderkid Lickliter and Lickliter went on to completely destroy the program and fan interest. I seem to recall you were also the guy who was adamant that the Hoyas would do horrible in last year's BET and threw out all these facts and figures in support of that. How did that work out.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jan 14, 2011 15:29:03 GMT -5
To compare Iowa to Georgetown basketball is so far off it cannot be stated enough. I'd beg for Esherick to be re-hired before I'd ever want Alford or Lickliter to coach. If anything you're just backing up what I said. The fans clamored for the high profile Alford to be fired (someone who had a moderate amount of success at Iowa, and was able to attract players to a school that has a very hard time recruiting for basketball.) . When the fans got their wish, they rejoiced at the mid major wunderkid Lickliter and Lickliter went on to completely destroy the program and fan interest. I seem to recall you were also the guy who was adamant that the Hoyas would do horrible in last year's BET and threw out all these facts and figures in support of that. How did that work out. Quit talking about crap you don't know about. Iowa was a perennial top 25 program from Lute Olson, George Raveling through Dr. Tom Davis. They attracted good talent and under Raveling--great talent. Don't recall saying anything about failure in the BET tournament a year ago--so don't know where you're going with that. I remember saying if the Hoyas played uptempo and ran against Cuse like they did in last 12 minutes in DC they could win and if they played like other 68 minutes they'd not. How did that turn out Professor? You got the wrong guy. Just hate when someone doesn't know a thing about another program and uses it as a reference.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 14, 2011 15:41:59 GMT -5
RDF - not to get too far off track, but having had McCaffery for a few years at Siena here in town, you are absolutely right, he will succeed and will fire up that program and fanbase. He is almost Knight-like the way he will go off at refs, and even at his own players for repeated dumb mistakes - it is almost hilarious the way his face turns red and the veins in his neck stand out when he goes off. And his wife, Margaret, a former player at ND when he was an assistant there, actually got ejected from a road game at a small gym in the MAAC a few years ago for repeatedly hollering at the ref. Talk about passion!
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jan 14, 2011 15:46:08 GMT -5
RDF - not to get too far off track, but having had McCaffery for a few years at Siena here in town, you are absolutely right, he will succeed and will fire up that program and fanbase. He is almost Knight-like the way he will go off at refs, and even at his own players for repeated dumb mistakes - it is almost hilarious the way his face turns red and the veins in his neck stand out when he goes off. And his wife, Margaret, a former player at ND when he was an assistant there, actually got ejected from a road game at a small gym in the MAAC a few years ago for repeatedly hollering at the ref. Talk about passion! Funny you brought his up because he's been heard to have some "salty" language as the radio broadcast of Iowa games is right by the bench and most of his venom has been directed at players--but to a man they love playing for the guy. Of course when your last coach's response to Illinois fans invading your court was to say "Did they at least pay for the seats?", anything seems improved. I like the guy as a coach and he wins wherever he goes-because he gets what the game is about/should be about--getting players/letting them be the focal point.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 14, 2011 15:50:42 GMT -5
Quit talking about crap you don't know about. Iowa was a perennial top 25 program from Lute Olson, George Raveling through Dr. Tom Davis. They attracted good talent and under Raveling--great talent. Don't recall saying anything about failure in the BET tournament a year ago--so don't know where you're going with that. I remember saying if the Hoyas played uptempo and ran against Cuse like they did in last 12 minutes in DC they could win and if they played like other 68 minutes they'd not. How did that turn out Professor? You got the wrong guy. Just hate when someone doesn't know a thing about another program and uses it as a reference. Not sure why you are bringing up coaches from ancient times, who go back to when the slam dunk was banned in college basketball. Sure you can just throw out facts that are true that have little to do with the argument at hand but that's just playing the scarecrow, mr. strawman. The fact of the matter is with the big time college basektball of the 90s, 2000s, Iowa cannot recruit the big time athletes. The best instate players (Collison, Heinrich, Harrison Barnes) go to KU or North Carolina (Roy Williams and his KU/Iowa connection). And Iowa and Iowa State are left to collect the scraps. It's a hard place to recruit out of state athletes. Look even at the successful football program. As great a coach as Kirk Ferentz is, they get the athletes Ohio State and Michigan didn't want. Guys like Darrell Johnson Koulinos who was running the drug house. Pierre Pierce was a similar situation, great athlete but had question marks. As far as last season, you were saying that they would do horrible in the Big East tournament and that the team was horrible. You basically mailed in the season before the tournament even started and were being a Debbie Downer. We can look up old posts if you want. During the tournament run, while all the Hoyas fans were having fun with their great run you were silent. So you were completely WRONG in your assessment. If you weren't so rude, I wouldn't even bother bringing it up. You make alot of good points, and I agree with alot of what you say usuallly, but you go that extra step to be discourteous when someone doesn't agree with your view of the basketball world.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jan 14, 2011 16:15:58 GMT -5
Quit talking about crap you don't know about. Iowa was a perennial top 25 program from Lute Olson, George Raveling through Dr. Tom Davis. They attracted good talent and under Raveling--great talent. Don't recall saying anything about failure in the BET tournament a year ago--so don't know where you're going with that. I remember saying if the Hoyas played uptempo and ran against Cuse like they did in last 12 minutes in DC they could win and if they played like other 68 minutes they'd not. How did that turn out Professor? You got the wrong guy. Just hate when someone doesn't know a thing about another program and uses it as a reference. Not sure why you are bringing up coaches from ancient times, who go back to when the slam dunk was banned in college basketball. Sure you can just throw out facts that are true that have little to do with the argument at hand but that's just playing the scarecrow, mr. strawman. The fact of the matter is with the big time college basektball of the 90s, 2000s, Iowa cannot recruit the big time athletes. The best instate players (Collison, Heinrich, Harrison Barnes) go to KU or North Carolina (Roy Williams and his KU/Iowa connection). And Iowa and Iowa State are left to collect the scraps. It's a hard place to recruit out of state athletes. Look even at the successful football program. As great a coach as Kirk Ferentz is, they get the athletes Ohio State and Michigan didn't want. Guys like Darrell Johnson Koulinos who was running the drug house. Pierre Pierce was a similar situation, great athlete but had question marks. As far as last season, you were saying that they would do horrible in the Big East tournament and that the team was horrible. You basically mailed in the season before the tournament even started and were being a Debbie Downer. We can look up old posts if you want. During the tournament run, while all the Hoyas fans were having fun with their great run you were silent. So you were completely WRONG in your assessment. If you weren't so rude, I wouldn't even bother bringing it up. You make alot of good points, and I agree with alot of what you say usuallly, but you go that extra step to be discourteous when someone doesn't agree with your view of the basketball world. You make it seem like the program is a wasteland--they were a perennial NCAA team from the Olson-Davis Era and once Davis left--they suffered the drop off--and they got good players. It's a state where you can recruit well to--it's got it's benefits and can be a top 25 program--as was proven under the names I mentioned. Let's put it this way--for you to take a shot at the "old days" and be a Georgetown fan is pretty ironic---because when would you say the last time this program was consistently dominant was? 1980's. I'm a Hoya fan and always been--but your retort makes no sense and you bring up DJK but don't mention the numerous NFL guys Iowa has recruited/developed and placed in NFL in the Ferentz Era? Odd--and many are from out of state and go there. Athletics is simple--doesn't matter where you are--if you hire a good coach--you can win. If you understand how to sell the program, who he can/more importantly won't get, you can win. Iowa has Big 10 $ and that is also why the athletics have slipped. University presidents emphasis on winning goes down as your rake in money---they could care less--as long as you entertain/put butts in seats. Alford was a low life person--he lost fans, and Lickliter was an awful coach who drove fans away. McCaffery will succeed and already has brought fans back. They made a good hire. As for the BET run, I don't recall any of what you said. My issue was with the lousy defense of the backcourt last year--and got into many debates prior to the tournament about that--and as always--if the team does well--I'm happy and won't hear a peep. If anything--I supported them after the WVU loss--so don't get this.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jan 14, 2011 16:35:52 GMT -5
Professor-here was my lone post prior to BET play about the forecast for the team:
Didn't a winless DePaul team get a victory over Cincinnati in last year's BET? I don't really remember because after the loss to SJU, I pretty much checked out of watching last year out of frustration.
Always think it's important to play well at BET. When Hoyas win the BET, the worst they've finished in NCAA's is in Regional Final--and I love that streak. '96 team made Regional Final in loss--but we all know that should've been a win, but you get point. Better to play well in BET then to stink--and if the team is all geared up for USF--good--only thing that scares me--what is USF loses? That is exact type scenario this year's group hasn't proven to hold up well.
As for those who don't think DePaul has a shot--they have beaten Marquette, given Syracuse all they wanted, and played far better under Webster in terms of effort/intensity. Kowshal is an excellent player and Will Walker is a good guard. It wouldn't surprise me at all and if it happens--just hope Hoyas are focused on what they can control and not overlooking anything.
Not really sure how that is seen as projecting negativity???
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kghoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,998
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Post by kghoya on Jan 19, 2011 2:21:49 GMT -5
Who plays more next season - Trawick or Bowen?
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Jan 19, 2011 2:27:48 GMT -5
Great question! Hopefully Bowen develops and becomes Jason's backup. He is bouncy.....I like that. Who plays more next season - Trawick or Bowen?
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Post by wrestlemania on Jan 19, 2011 10:43:00 GMT -5
I haven't said this since Esherick's final year - the program is at a crossroads right now. The good news is that turning things around this year (being ranked, nice BE finish, Sweet Sixteen) would keep us stable for at least a few years and I believe in my heart that it is possible. The bad news: a poor finish this year and next and the program is at square one. The Esh era was a very different kettle of cabbage. I'm speculating just like nearly everyone else on this board, but I believe Esh was canned primarily because there was serious fear that the program was descending to bottom-feeder status (which in the Big East can be a life sentence -- ask Rutgers, DePaul etc.), and that Esh did not have what it took to turn things around. And there was enough evidence of that to justify firing him. Say what you want about JTIII, but I think he is better equipped to turn things around if they go south. Also, the last thing Jack wants to do is go through another coaching change -- other schools can deal with it in pretty short order (e.g., Michigan and RichRod), but, at least as far as athletic programs go, GU is not like those other schools. I've said this before -- so long as his father is still alive, JTIII isn't going anywhere unless he quits.
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