SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2011 4:20:43 GMT -5
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Jan 9, 2011 10:37:58 GMT -5
The locals should just come out and say what they actually think: They want the University to be gone.
These people remind me of the folks who move in next to an airport and then complain about the noise.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2011 10:56:16 GMT -5
The affirmative defense of coming to the nuisance. . .
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Post by strummer8526 on Jan 9, 2011 11:46:06 GMT -5
"When asked to describe these neighbors, university President John J. DeGioia responded with a chuckle: 'This is an extraordinary community.'"
Way to be tough there, Jack. I would love to see a GU administrator grow a pair and tell the neighbors where they can shove their lawn signs.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 9, 2011 12:30:20 GMT -5
"When asked to describe these neighbors, university President John J. DeGioia responded with a chuckle: 'This is an extraordinary community.'" Way to be tough there, Jack. I would love to see a GU administrator grow a pair and tell the neighbors where they can shove their lawn signs. What, precisely, would that accomplish? Aside from Editeding them off more, which would almost assuredly make them more committed.
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Post by strummer8526 on Jan 9, 2011 12:33:28 GMT -5
"When asked to describe these neighbors, university President John J. DeGioia responded with a chuckle: 'This is an extraordinary community.'" Way to be tough there, Jack. I would love to see a GU administrator grow a pair and tell the neighbors where they can shove their lawn signs. What, precisely, would that accomplish? Aside from Editeding them off more, which would almost assuredly make them more committed. I don't mean literally telling them to shove their lawn signs anywhere. I was using that as shorthand for generally standing up to them and not giving into their outrageous demands (e.g., re-rounting GUTS buses, off-campus "RAs," no 1789 block building, etc.).
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jan 9, 2011 13:54:53 GMT -5
False equivalency alert: "The opposing sides have mailed color pamphlets to hundreds of residents, hired consultants, and sent out terse news releases. There are even yard signs."
I've yet to hear of any university consultants or terse news releases or yard signs. They sent out one newsletter, which - given neighbor complains about insufficient information and communication - was done for the benefit of of the "townies" more than anything else.
Also, the "more than 7,400 undergraduates" number quoted in the article is highly misleading, since that would include all the students permanently based in Qatar, all the Continuing Studies non-traditional "Bachelor of Liberal Studies" students, all the non-degree students like the ones just taking EFL classes, all the second-degree nursing students, etc. Almost none of these live on campus. Under the current 2000 Campus Plan methodology, the approved Full-Time, Traditional Undergraduate maximum is 6,016. This number is defined as the average of the number of full-time traditional undergraduate students enrolled in the Fall and Spring semesters, with several categories of defined exclusions (e.g. the groups named above).
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2011 14:40:11 GMT -5
Surely the rapid response Georgetown public information office will be contacting the WashPost to correct the misleading stats cited in the article??
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Jan 9, 2011 23:31:05 GMT -5
False equivalency alert: "The opposing sides have mailed color pamphlets to hundreds of residents, hired consultants, and sent out terse news releases. There are even yard signs." I've yet to hear of any university consultants or terse news releases or yard signs. They sent out one newsletter, which - given neighbor complains about insufficient information and communication - was done for the benefit of of the "townies" more than anything else. Also, the "more than 7,400 undergraduates" number quoted in the article is highly misleading, since that would include all the students permanently based in Qatar, all the Continuing Studies non-traditional "Bachelor of Liberal Studies" students, all the non-degree students like the ones just taking EFL classes, all the second-degree nursing students, etc. Almost none of these live on campus. Under the current 2000 Campus Plan methodology, the approved Full-Time, Traditional Undergraduate maximum is 6,016. This number is defined as the average of the number of full-time traditional undergraduate students enrolled in the Fall and Spring semesters, with several categories of defined exclusions (e.g. the groups named above). Impressive, Russky. Most impressive. You're ready to be a zoning lawyer! But you're absolutely right, of course. And the 7400 number also includes students studying abroad. Another category with a few hundred students.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 10, 2011 13:23:59 GMT -5
False equivalency alert: "The opposing sides have mailed color pamphlets to hundreds of residents, hired consultants, and sent out terse news releases. There are even yard signs." I've yet to hear of any university consultants or terse news releases or yard signs. They sent out one newsletter, which - given neighbor complains about insufficient information and communication - was done for the benefit of of the "townies" more than anything else. Also, the "more than 7,400 undergraduates" number quoted in the article is highly misleading, since that would include all the students permanently based in Qatar, all the Continuing Studies non-traditional "Bachelor of Liberal Studies" students, all the non-degree students like the ones just taking EFL classes, all the second-degree nursing students, etc. Almost none of these live on campus. Under the current 2000 Campus Plan methodology, the approved Full-Time, Traditional Undergraduate maximum is 6,016. This number is defined as the average of the number of full-time traditional undergraduate students enrolled in the Fall and Spring semesters, with several categories of defined exclusions (e.g. the groups named above). Impressive, Russky. Most impressive. You're ready to be a zoning lawyer! But you're absolutely right, of course. And the 7400 number also includes students studying abroad. Another category with a few hundred students. You've probably posted this before, but how does GU compare with other schools in terms of the percentage of undergrads housed on campus? I gotta think we have a pretty high percentage. And does the 80% figure mean 80% of 6,000 or 80% of 7,400?
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Jan 10, 2011 13:35:00 GMT -5
Impressive, Russky. Most impressive. You're ready to be a zoning lawyer! But you're absolutely right, of course. And the 7400 number also includes students studying abroad. Another category with a few hundred students. You've probably posted this before, but how does GU compare with other schools in terms of the percentage of undergrads housed on campus? I gotta think we have a pretty high percentage. And does the 80% figure mean 80% of 6,000 or 80% of 7,400? 80% is somewhere in the middle. GU provides 5053 beds on campus. The total number of students in traditional undergraduate programs is around 6,675. Note, however, that includes study abroad, so the actual number on campus is less than that by about 300-600 depending on year and semester (more in spring). Let's be conservative and say less 350. So that's how you get to 80%. It's higher than most other area universities. Gallaudet has more, but that's because of their specialized nature. GW probably comes closest, with 70% for their first 8000, plus 1 bed for each student over that amount. GW has different exclusions, too. But this is only in the very recent past, since GW just opened two new residence halls on its campuses in the last couple of years. And only factors on beds provided, not beds occupied. American, Catholic, and Howard are all well behind. Not sure where Trinity is. And UDC doesn't provide ANY housing. Many of GU's peer schools also provide similar levels. Brown, Notre Dame, and Duke all provide housing for somewhere around 3/4 of their students. UPenn provides significantly less (like in the 60s, I think. It's very hard to compare to other schools, though, because the statistics are not uniform. But apples to apples, GU houses more than many of its peers both in DC and across the country.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jan 10, 2011 14:04:35 GMT -5
Also the thing that the neighbors continually ignore is that a lot of students WANT to live off campus. I'd say at least 95% of people who live off campus do so voluntarily. I think even if we had enough housing for every single student a lot of it would go unused because people would still choose to live off campus. I know it's anecdotal, but all my friends who ever were on the waitlist for housing always got housing on campus eventually. I managed to live all 4 years on campus. So did other people I know. Students are always going to want to live off campus no amount of building dorms will ever change that.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 10, 2011 14:05:52 GMT -5
You've probably posted this before, but how does GU compare with other schools in terms of the percentage of undergrads housed on campus? I gotta think we have a pretty high percentage. And does the 80% figure mean 80% of 6,000 or 80% of 7,400? 80% is somewhere in the middle. GU provides 5053 beds on campus. The total number of students in traditional undergraduate programs is around 6,675. Note, however, that includes study abroad, so the actual number on campus is less than that by about 300-600 depending on year and semester (more in spring). Let's be conservative and say less 350. So that's how you get to 80%. It's higher than most other area universities. Gallaudet has more, but that's because of their specialized nature. GW probably comes closest, with 70% for their first 8000, plus 1 bed for each student over that amount. GW has different exclusions, too. But this is only in the very recent past, since GW just opened two new residence halls on its campuses in the last couple of years. And only factors on beds provided, not beds occupied. American, Catholic, and Howard are all well behind. Not sure where Trinity is. And UDC doesn't provide ANY housing. Many of GU's peer schools also provide similar levels. Brown, Notre Dame, and Duke all provide housing for somewhere around 3/4 of their students. UPenn provides significantly less (like in the 60s, I think. It's very hard to compare to other schools, though, because the statistics are not uniform. But apples to apples, GU houses more than many of its peers both in DC and across the country. Are student studying abroad included in those figures. I imagine several hundred students go abroad each year, meaning even fewer bodies to be housed on campus.
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afirth
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Post by afirth on Jan 10, 2011 14:21:28 GMT -5
Also the thing that the neighbors continually ignore is that a lot of students WANT to live off campus. I'd say at least 95% of people who live off campus do so voluntarily. I think even if we had enough housing for every single student a lot of it would go unused because people would still choose to live off campus. I know it's anecdotal, but all my friends who ever were on the waitlist for housing always got housing on campus eventually. I managed to live all 4 years on campus. So did other people I know. Students are always going to want to live off campus no amount of building dorms will ever change that. I believe what some of the neighbors want is for Georgetown to require all students to live on campus all 4 years, the way a few colleges out there still do. Of course, even if Georgetown stopped building academic buildings and built new dorms instead, it still couldn't house all students on campus--so I believe one of neighbors' proposed solutions was to make students live in dorms in Rosslyn or something and bus them over every day. Even though hell will freeze over before that happens, it doesn't stop the neighbors from wanting it.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Jan 10, 2011 15:01:13 GMT -5
80% is somewhere in the middle. GU provides 5053 beds on campus. The total number of students in traditional undergraduate programs is around 6,675. Note, however, that includes study abroad, so the actual number on campus is less than that by about 300-600 depending on year and semester (more in spring). Let's be conservative and say less 350. So that's how you get to 80%. It's higher than most other area universities. Gallaudet has more, but that's because of their specialized nature. GW probably comes closest, with 70% for their first 8000, plus 1 bed for each student over that amount. GW has different exclusions, too. But this is only in the very recent past, since GW just opened two new residence halls on its campuses in the last couple of years. And only factors on beds provided, not beds occupied. American, Catholic, and Howard are all well behind. Not sure where Trinity is. And UDC doesn't provide ANY housing. Many of GU's peer schools also provide similar levels. Brown, Notre Dame, and Duke all provide housing for somewhere around 3/4 of their students. UPenn provides significantly less (like in the 60s, I think. It's very hard to compare to other schools, though, because the statistics are not uniform. But apples to apples, GU houses more than many of its peers both in DC and across the country. Are student studying abroad included in those figures. I imagine several hundred students go abroad each year, meaning even fewer bodies to be housed on campus. Study abroad is included in the 7,400 number cited by the Post as well as in the 6,675 number I noted above. You're right, anywhere from 300-600 students go abroad in a given semester.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Jan 10, 2011 15:35:19 GMT -5
Also the thing that the neighbors continually ignore is that a lot of students WANT to live off campus. I'd say at least 95% of people who live off campus do so voluntarily. I think even if we had enough housing for every single student a lot of it would go unused because people would still choose to live off campus. I know it's anecdotal, but all my friends who ever were on the waitlist for housing always got housing on campus eventually. I managed to live all 4 years on campus. So did other people I know. Students are always going to want to live off campus no amount of building dorms will ever change that. Also anecdotal, but a friend of mind who worked in the housing off said everyone (that is probably a slight exaggeration) who wants to live on campus does. meaning when seniors ask to live on campus they end up getting housing on campus. And I can remember that sophomore year there were two empty rooms on my floor in Copley, RA said it was because no one had requested them so they were just extras. I am with the Stig on this that these people are just disingenuous and want the university effectively gone. If they university suddenly got like a trillion dollars so money wanted an issue and wanted to put all the students on campus what would happen? Well a new dorm would have to be built to hold, what 500 students. So you are looking at a SWQ kind of size. Regardless of where the space for this would come from (lets pretend it is floating above the MSF) the Neighbors would never approve it. "its and eyesore" they would claim, "the architecture isnt historically appropriate" they would cry. Then they would suggest that the best solution would to just decrease enrollment, which is what they really want. Cant Gtown just have their economics professors explain to they how the consistent stable demand of 800 students a year seeking to live off campus effectively eliminates any slack supply in the housing market for the area and thus keeps their home prices high? (never was good with economics so my terminology might be off there) And if the students move out who is going to buy or rent those homes? Almost all of they need significant cosmetic work inside not to mention safety upgrades.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jan 16, 2011 20:28:57 GMT -5
Cant Gtown just have their economics professors explain to they how the consistent stable demand of 800 students a year seeking to live off campus effectively eliminates any slack supply in the housing market for the area and thus keeps their home prices high? (never was good with economics so my terminology might be off there) And if the students move out who is going to buy or rent those homes? Almost all of they need significant cosmetic work inside not to mention safety upgrades. The neighborhood perspective is that if students were not present/not allowed to lease off-campus housing, the landlords would have no choice but to fix them up and sell them to "single-family owners," their sacred cow of property owner. In their mind, there is no slack supply in the housing market because, let's be honest, who wouldn't be absolutely desperate and dying to live in Georgetown (Burleith, Foxhall, Glover Park), the most elite of the elite neighborhoods. Those single-family owners would, of course, be much wealthier, more distinguished, and more Caucasian better representatives of the neighborhood. They would help increase the neighborhoods' influence in city politics with their increased wealth and power. There are other, more direct economic arguments, some of which are plainly stated here (http://www.thegeorgetowndish.com/thedish/mayor-considers-lifting-campus-enrollment-caps): Avery, an economist who has taught at Cornell, Carnegie Mellon, and Georgetown, said lifting enrollment caps to create jobs and spur growth is not sensible economic policy. "Bringing businesses to the city generates property tax and corporate income tax revenue," he said. "Universities don't do that." Additionally, he said, crowding out taxpaying residents with students further reduces the economic benefit to the city.
"If graduate students push out a family with an income of $100,000, that's about $5,000 in District taxes. Graduate students are unlikely to have that income or pay those taxes," he said. "It's not to say that universities aren't good -- they raise the stature of a city and do other important things. But they're not good economically."
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Jan 17, 2011 9:57:22 GMT -5
Also anecdotal, but a friend of mind who worked in the housing off said everyone (that is probably a slight exaggeration) who wants to live on campus does. meaning when seniors ask to live on campus they end up getting housing on campus. And I can remember that sophomore year there were two empty rooms on my floor in Copley, RA said it was because no one had requested them so they were just extras. As a student who screwed up his housing plans senior year and had to go on-campus at the last second, I can sort of confirm this. The housing office told me the same thing (everybody who wants on-campus housing gets it), and sure enough I had a (quite nice) place to live on campus senior year. As far as Rusky's point about the current student townhouses becoming single family homes, I don't think the neighborhood folks realize just how much work those houses need. Most of them are fine for students for a year, but a family who's paying Georgetown real estate prices is going to have significantly higher standards. Pretty much every one of them will have to be gutted and rebuilt from the inside out. Anyways, if a few hundred new single family homes are suddenly dropped on the market, the value of the current homes there will drop quite a bit. It's simple supply and demand.
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JB5
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Post by JB5 on Jan 17, 2011 20:10:52 GMT -5
I lived 2 years off campus back in the day when not everyone who wanted on campus space got it. I don't have the official stats, but it seems to me that far more GU students were off campus back then than today. The neighbor quoted in the Post article who believes that the numbers are increasing clearly wasn't there in the Ewing era. One thing hasn't changed: when the neighbors see a drunk or unruly college-aged person, they always assume it is a GU student.
A big part of the reason Georgetown property values are high is the presence of a world-class university there.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 18, 2011 4:26:50 GMT -5
Mid-1970s GU simply lacked the housing for all students who wanted to live on campus. IIRC, there was a housing lottery for those who wanted to be in a dorm. I think GU could only house 50% of students in dorms.
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