SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 30, 2010 2:15:00 GMT -5
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Sept 30, 2010 8:23:39 GMT -5
Yes. As does every peer school. At GU the legacy admit rate was nearly double the overall admit rate last time I asked. It still doesn't prevent dozens of alumni parents from getting very angry and withdrawing support for the university when their kid doesn't get in.
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CWS
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Post by CWS on Sept 30, 2010 8:27:13 GMT -5
It's an interesting argument, but I don't think it works. The key argument seems to be that because legacy candidates tend to be from an elite/white demographic group, that legacy admissions constitute, in effect, a preference for white-elites over disadvantaged poor and minorities. I don't have too much inside information about how things work at Gtown (I've sat on admissions committees before, but I don't have the big picture experience). However, my sense is that -- in part because of the drive for socio-economic poor, minority and diversity candidates and because of their distinctive backgrounds (i.e., because they often come from underperforming schools, because they don't have the advantage of SAT training, etc., they can't be compared fairly with candidates from high-performing prep schools) --- that those groups are sometimes considered through special admissions committees. The result is, I suspect, that legacy candidates who fit in the category of white/elite only hurt the chances of other (non-legacy) white/elite candidates; they don't affect the outcome of decisions about students from poor socio-economic backgrounds. I think the author also underplays the importance of community-building. There is something special about the bonds that cross generations. |
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 30, 2010 8:28:30 GMT -5
Interesting. Don't have a huge issue with legacy admissions per se, but double does seem a tad high and the fact that you still get angry parents, what can you do about that? Nothing I guess. I just hope admissions aren't based solely upon how much was given, i.e., you can't buy your kid's admission into GU.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 30, 2010 8:28:51 GMT -5
Yale *does* need an international airport.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 30, 2010 8:44:02 GMT -5
The article's authors imply that college admissions should be a pure meritocracy, which is counterproductive to the building of a cohesive student body.
If GU admissions was thusly formed, the entire class would be valedictorians, three quarters of the students would either be pre-med or SFS, and there would little or no room for athletics, community service, diversity, or the other intangilbles that distinguish the current admissions pool, not hold it back.
FWIW, The egghead tone of the article also fails to note the legacy issue at HBCU's.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 30, 2010 8:59:49 GMT -5
As one of the founding members of the Pep Band, I remember joking back in the 1970s when people asked me how to get into Georgetown, to put down you are a tuba player! We'd joke with Charlie Deacon about the needs for the pep band in the coming year. Now that's diversity.
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nodak89
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Post by nodak89 on Sept 30, 2010 9:04:46 GMT -5
As one of the founding members of the Pep Band, I remember joking back in the 1970s when people asked me how to get into Georgetown, to put down you are a tuba player! worked for me! and being from North Dakota didn't hurt either. |
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Sept 30, 2010 9:39:07 GMT -5
In my mind colleges especially private ones can admit who ever they want for whatever reason they want. This article makes no sense to me.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Sept 30, 2010 9:52:19 GMT -5
As someone who is reading a lot of education policy literature at the moment, the study that is linked the op-ed is flawed and I would get laughed at if I cited it in a lit review.
Don't really bother reading it, its just a bunch of admissions stats that the author assumes that the audience will immediately consider to be terrible. He can't think of any concrete benefit to society with the elimination of legacy preferences other than joe shmoe will get a warm fuzzy that his kid's chances of getting into Yale have increased by .0000000000000001% (while the chances of getting into a more sensible public school may have gone down as private school legacies take up spots there instead of at daddy's alma mater) and that the American system higher education system (which is generally considered to be superior than that of any other country) will conform with the norms of Eastern Europe.
And I say this as a second generation college grad who went to a school 1000 miles away from where my parents did.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 30, 2010 10:05:13 GMT -5
Legacies are all about building cohesion, which is all about raising money. As long as it influences Hoya alumni who are ungodly rich to give more money to the university, and legacies are a small percentage of the class, I'm cool with it. It's not meritocratic, but I justify it by saying that the wealthy would use their connections somewhere else.
And colleges can't admit who they want for whatever reason they want if they get federal funding, which is the point the article makes - you can't refuse to admit African-Americans soley because they're African-American, or gays because they're gay. VMI and the Citadel both lost this fight. It's an open legal question whether someone could be granted a preference to attend a school just because their parents went there.
I find it interesting that this discussion is occurring now that there's a row about for-profit colleges on the Hill. State-supported colleges and officially non-profit institutions like Harvard that pay their leaders huge salaries escape any of these discussions for reasons that really aren't clear.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Sept 30, 2010 11:01:30 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between refusing to admit someone and choosing to admit someone is my point. Choosing to admit a legacy isn't the same thing as refusing to accept an african american. That's my point. I see it as you can't reject anyone you want for whatever reason you want, but you can accept anyone you want for pretty much any reason you want. If you want to accept someone who plays the tua for that reason i'm fine with it, If you want to accpet someone just because they were really funny in their interview I'm fine with that too.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Sept 30, 2010 14:33:04 GMT -5
The article's authors imply that college admissions should be a pure meritocracy, which is counterproductive to the building of a cohesive student body. If GU admissions was thusly formed, the entire class would be valedictorians, three quarters of the students would either be pre-med or SFS, and there would little or no room for athletics, community service, diversity, or the other intangilbles that distinguish the current admissions pool, not hold it back. It also presumes that GPA and SAT scores are what should characterize "merit." |
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tgo
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Post by tgo on Sept 30, 2010 15:02:37 GMT -5
2x the acceptance rate seems really low to me.
The avg hoya parent is smarter and wealthier than most people their child is competing with and so whether you think that intelligence is determined by genetics, opportunity or a combination of the two, a legacy applicant has a huge leg up on the avg applicant and at 18 years old has had years of opportunities to enrich themselves as well as intelligent parents to model themselves after that many people dont have.
beyond the natural advantages a legacy applicant brings to the game, i think your family connection to georgetown should mean something, not everything but something. something they bring to the table that many others cant that is an important part of building the community we want to have. the community is not just about the 4 years on the hill but about a lifetime as a hoya and we should want to do everything we can to as a community to build the bonds between hoyas and their alma mater.
if an incredibly gifted tuba player wanted to go to gu but their grades were below the norm, their gift for the tuba might be enough to compensate. we take hoops players and many other people who bring things to the table that others cant and a family connection to GU should be one of those things.
if your parents are president of the local alumni association and been doing interviewing for years, raised & donated money for GU then that should matter in the final equation.
i have seen several applicants in the past 3 years whose parents are very involved alumni and their kids didnt get in. kids seemed bright but i havent read the file or know the scores of these kids so i am not going to pass judgement on the individual cases - perhaps GU was correct each time - but it concerns me that it appears (admittedly based on limited anecdotal evidence) that GU does not value the family connection to the university as it continues to build the greater hoya community.
lastly, from a fundraising perspective it is shortsided to not do everything you can to favor your biggest supporters
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 30, 2010 15:24:56 GMT -5
On the "Hoya parents are smarter than the general population" - note the article, which says that "At many selective schools, legacies make up 10 percent to 25 percent of the student population. By contrast, at the California Institute of Technology, which has no legacy preferences, only 1.5 percent of students are the children of alumni.".
How can CalTech parents, who are probably just as bright, if not more so, than their Hoya colleagues, present such a small percentage of legacies in incoming classes?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Sept 30, 2010 16:53:14 GMT -5
If the comparison of acceptance rates was Legacy at GU versus All Students in HS, tgo, your argument would be right. But it's not.
Legacy applicants are probably on the whole less qualified (though probably not by much) than the average student body at GU because the applicant pool is self-selecting. The average HS doesn't apply to Georgetown because they know they can't get in.
Both legacy and non-Legacy students who are in Georgetown's general SAT/GPA range and have interest apply. But I bet more borderline legacy students apply (as a %) than borderline non-Legacy -- because they assume the legacy angle will give them a chance. Also, i think more of them are likely to apply (as a %) to GU as a dream school even if they wouldn't traditionally have a shot.
Either way, a 20% rate shows preference. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up for debate, but I doubt they are more qualified on average.
(That said, the school isn't judging the applicant on race. So it's not racist.)
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On whether it is good or bad, while legacy kids often have genetics and a moneyed upbringing on their side, there's also a decent amount of personal experience I've had that a subset of them were often of the rich kid/slacker type. So there's pluses and minuses.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Oct 1, 2010 9:12:35 GMT -5
If the comparison of acceptance rates was Legacy at GU versus All Students in HS, tgo, your argument would be right. But it's not. Legacy applicants are probably on the whole less qualified (though probably not by much) than the average student body at GU because the applicant pool is self-selecting. The average HS doesn't apply to Georgetown because they know they can't get in. Both legacy and non-Legacy students who are in Georgetown's general SAT/GPA range and have interest apply. But I bet more borderline legacy students apply (as a %) than borderline non-Legacy -- because they assume the legacy angle will give them a chance. Also, i think more of them are likely to apply (as a %) to GU as a dream school even if they wouldn't traditionally have a shot. Either way, a 20% rate shows preference. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up for debate, but I doubt they are more qualified on average. (That said, the school isn't judging the applicant on race. So it's not racist.) -------------- On whether it is good or bad, while legacy kids often have genetics and a moneyed upbringing on their side, there's also a decent amount of personal experience I've had that a subset of them were often of the rich kid/slacker type. So there's pluses and minuses. Agree 100%. |
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 1, 2010 9:44:39 GMT -5
If the comparison of acceptance rates was Legacy at GU versus All Students in HS, tgo, your argument would be right. But it's not. Legacy applicants are probably on the whole less qualified (though probably not by much) than the average student body at GU because the applicant pool is self-selecting. The average HS doesn't apply to Georgetown because they know they can't get in. You're underestimating the number of non-legacy kids who apply to Georgetown who have no chance of getting in and apply anyway, often because they don't know they have no chance because they're not as savvy as to how the system works. It is a self-selecting pool, to be sure, but not quite as self-selecting as you think. Children of alumni, on the other hand, tend to be quite savvy about the admissions process. In my experience, the legacy cohort was significantly more competitive than the non-legacy cohort. But it really is an apples and oranges comparison in a lot of ways. |
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ScreamingHoya
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Post by ScreamingHoya on Oct 1, 2010 15:23:25 GMT -5
Don't agree with it, but glad it exists, because that's how I got into g'town. I got a rejection letter from the university and then my file was given to a 'legacy committee' who put me through. I was so Editeded at the idea that I was only getting in because of daddy that I refused to go and had to be talked into it. I'm sure glad I went though.
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Post by JohnJacquesLayup on Oct 12, 2010 11:27:25 GMT -5
I was a legacy student, and am sure that status had a significant impact on my admission. However, are all legacy applicants placed into a certain pool separate from the rest of applicants? Can't a legacy student have been admitted under their own merit as well, or are they automatically separated and reviewed under different criteria?
Unlike ScreamingHoya, I never received an initial rejection letter. I actually never received an acceptance letter either. I received a "conditional acceptance" requiring me to take several summer courses prior to my freshman year, earning a B or better, in order to gain full admittance into the freshman class.
I honestly didn't care how I was admitted, why, or what I had to do to earn full admittance at the time. I was just determined to do what was required. But for those more familiar with the admittance process (1999), can you give me more insight into how my application was most likely handled?
Thanks.
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