HoyaNyr320
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Post by HoyaNyr320 on Sept 14, 2010 16:35:14 GMT -5
www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/14/france.burqa.ban/index.html?hpt=T2I don't know what is worse - the fact that the French Senate actually passed this or the fact that 100 of their left-leaning Senators abstained from voting rather than stand up to this religious intolerance. I guess the culture of "surrender" is alive and well there! Of course we have religious intolerance here, as exemplified by events here over the past few weeks, but thank goodness that our Constitution would nullify laws like this.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 14, 2010 16:39:52 GMT -5
I'm also glad that laws like that can't get passed here.
That said, the burqa has also been banned in majority Muslim countries like Turkey and Syria.
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Sept 14, 2010 17:24:08 GMT -5
Is this really "a new low for religious tolerance in Europe" as you put it? You might think the millions of Europeans who have been incinerated over the past few centuries would disagree. That said, the burqa has also been banned in majority Muslim countries like Turkey and Syria. RACISTS! They're all RACISTS! Everyone's a RACIST!!! Hmmm, shouting that at your political opponents doesn't seem to have the same impact that it once did.... It must be because they're all RACISTS and became inured to it. It's the only logical explanation. |
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 14, 2010 17:27:42 GMT -5
Is this really "a new low for religious tolerance in Europe" as you put it? You might think the millions of Europeans who have been incinerated over the past few centuries would disagree. That said, the burqa has also been banned in majority Muslim countries like Turkey and Syria. RACISTS! They're all RACISTS! Everyone's a RACIST!!! Hmmm, shouting that at your political opponents doesn't seem to have the same impact that it once did.... It must be because they're all RACISTS and became inured to it. It's the only logical explanation. One of my favorite parts of "America: The Book" is the line "In America, people constantly cluck and say 'I've never seen this country in a worse state.' This does not happen in Germany. |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 14, 2010 18:30:10 GMT -5
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HoyaNyr320
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Post by HoyaNyr320 on Sept 14, 2010 18:43:18 GMT -5
Is this really "a new low for religious tolerance in Europe" as you put it? You might think the millions of Europeans who have been incinerated over the past few centuries would disagree. That said, the burqa has also been banned in majority Muslim countries like Turkey and Syria. RACISTS! They're all RACISTS! Everyone's a RACIST!!! Hmmm, shouting that at your political opponents doesn't seem to have the same impact that it once did.... It must be because they're all RACISTS and became inured to it. It's the only logical explanation. 2 responses. First of all, I should have clarified that I meant 21st century Europe. Of course there have been worse examples of religious intolerance in Europe. Second of all, you are correct rosslynhoya! The reason Syria and Turkey do not allow burqas is because they reject a certain form of Islam. Therefore they are intolerant! When will apologizers for this type of behavior realize that just because they may disagree with a certain religious belief doesn't mean they have to bar others from practicing it? ON EDIT - the laws in Syria and Turkey only apply to State Universities. Turkey eased its ban in 2008. France's law applies to everyone on public streets - absolutely unacceptable. |
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 14, 2010 20:30:21 GMT -5
In the United States it's not allowed to say a prayer before an assembly in a public school. That's discrimination against all religions.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 14, 2010 20:34:40 GMT -5
In the United States it's not allowed to say a prayer before an assembly in a public school. That's discrimination against all religions. How so? Each person can say their own prayer as they see fit. At my school we simply had a brief moment of silence before lunch. Kids who wanted to say a prayer then could do so, kids who didn't (like me) could just stand quietly for a moment. It was fine for everybody. |
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Sept 14, 2010 20:42:51 GMT -5
When will apologizers for this type of behavior realize that just because they may disagree with a certain religious belief doesn't mean they have to bar others from practicing it? But if you don't really buy that purported reason for the ban, how about... When those who go out of their way to defend anything under the Islamic cloak realize that not everything needs to be or should be defended? |
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 14, 2010 22:00:28 GMT -5
The burqa is also not mentioned in the Koran. The Koran simply says that women (and men, for that matter) should dress modestly. The burqa is an extreme interpretation of that instruction.
My view is pretty simple. Should anybody, in Europe, the Muslim world, or elsewhere be forced to wear the burqa? No. However, if somebody genuinely wants to wear one, should they be allowed to do so? Yes.
Of course, determining whether somebody genuinely wants to wear something or are just being pressured into doing so by society or other people in their life is difficult to say the least. However, I think there are some women out there who really want to wear the burqa and freely choose to do so. To deny them the right to do so is just as wrong as forcing an unwilling woman to wear the burqa.
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HoyaNyr320
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Post by HoyaNyr320 on Sept 14, 2010 22:24:29 GMT -5
When will apologizers for this type of behavior realize that just because they may disagree with a certain religious belief doesn't mean they have to bar others from practicing it? But if you don't really buy that purported reason for the ban, how about... When those who go out of their way to defend anything under the Islamic cloak realize that not everything needs to be or should be defended?You know what? You're right! Why did the French stop with the burqa? They should have also outlawed the nun's veil as well. Such a misogynist practice...  My point is that even if to us it appears to be a misogynist practice, who are we to impose our belief system on others? I think what The Stig says above expresses this well. |
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 15, 2010 6:58:22 GMT -5
When those who support freedom of the burqa realize that it is just a form of enforcing misogyny?But if you don't really buy that purported reason for the ban, how about... When those who go out of their way to defend anything under the Islamic cloak realize that not everything needs to be or should be defended? You know what? You're right! Why did the French stop with the burqa? They should have also outlawed the nun's veil as well. Such a misogynist practice... My point is that even if to us it appears to be a misogynist practice, who are we to impose our belief system on others? I think what The Stig says above expresses this well. Like, say, female genital mutilation? |
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Post by hoyawatcher on Sept 15, 2010 8:00:03 GMT -5
You know what? You're right! Why did the French stop with the burqa? They should have also outlawed the nun's veil as well. Such a misogynist practice... My point is that even if to us it appears to be a misogynist practice, who are we to impose our belief system on others? I think what The Stig says above expresses this well. Like, say, female genital mutilation? Or probably more to the point in the US we have banned polygamy even though it is a long held tenant of some extreme christian sects. Just because it comes under the veil  of religion - Islam, christian, jewish or rostafarian - doesn't mean it is acceptable or that saying you can't do it is somehow intolerant. We do it all the time - and should do where ancient or extreme ideas don't work in today's world. We have appropriately shut down enclaves in the west where out of the mainstream religious sects have shut their kids out from the world and tried to control the women every way they could. Even though it was well ingrained in their religious doctrine. This is a much more complicated question than just screaming "INTOLERANCE" whenever some sharia concept becomes questioned or banned. Especially in France where there is a lot more conflict between muslim and "french" culture - including places where french police now consider parts of the outskirts of Paris "no go" zones due to militancy. Personally I think it is the right thing to do - as I do what was done to sects in the west in the US. |
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 15, 2010 11:25:22 GMT -5
The sects in the US that have been shut down have been shut down for violating other laws, such as child abuse and rape. We didn't have to pass additional laws to shut them down - their religious acts were violating the laws of the state as they were.
I'm not against banning the burqa because it comes under the veil of religion. As I said before, the burqa isn't a mandatory part of Islam - it's an extreme interpretation of an Islamic rule, an interpretation that is not accepted by the vast majority of Muslims. I'm against banning the burqa because I think that the state shouldn't dictate to people what clothes they are and aren't allowed to wear.
The point that I think many supporters of the ban can't comprehend is that some women actually want to wear the burqa. The overwhelming perception in the West seems to be that no woman would ever choose to wear such a thing, and that ANY woman who wears a burqa is being forced to do so by Muslim men. That's simply not the case. There are plenty of women, both in Muslim countries and in non-Muslim countries, who freely choose to wear it and would be very upset if they were not allowed to do so.
Are there women who are forced to wear the burqa? Yes. Is that wrong? Yes. But that doesn't mean that the burqa itself is wrong. For what it's worth, I think that any woman who is forced to wear the burqa should be able to get a restraining order against whoever is forcing her to wear it. In cases where the burqa is a legitimate piece of misogyny, the state should step in to protect the abused women. However, that doesn't mean that the state should trample on the rights of the women who have freely chosen to wear it.
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Post by hoyawatcher on Sept 15, 2010 11:54:32 GMT -5
I would counter that many women are quite happy in a polygamist marriage and are not forced into it against their will. But we still ban it in large part because we believe that there is a significant part of this activity that is detrimental to women and that it represents an act/culture that is damaging to women. The burka and the sharia law aspects associated with the burka show a similar detrimental impact on women's rights and have the same potential for abuse.
We ban polygamy even for women who are happy and willing in that relationship and I don't see the difference here other than it is Islamic and not some right wing christian nut practice.
BTW - the expectation that a women in a conservative muslim family is going to get a restraining order against her Dad is nonsensical and not in any way practical or really "right". We don't make this distinction for other religious practices we consider wrong. We simply ban them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2010 13:37:52 GMT -5
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 15, 2010 13:47:13 GMT -5
Rule #1 of reading stories about Britain: NEVER TRUST THE SUN!
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 15, 2010 14:13:51 GMT -5
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of religion - Islam, christian, jewish or rostafarian - doesn't mean it is acceptable or that saying you can't do it is somehow intolerant. We do it all the time - and should do where ancient or extreme ideas don't work in today's world.