FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Jul 4, 2010 22:28:07 GMT -5
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Post by HometownHoya on Jul 4, 2010 22:41:29 GMT -5
Germany
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 5, 2010 0:26:59 GMT -5
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jul 6, 2010 10:30:11 GMT -5
On the Uruguay-Ghana discussion, I don't see how what happened there is any different than a cornerback committing pass interference in the endzone to prevent a TD. It's a smart play, since the offense gets the ball on the 1, but you still have the hope of a fumble or something along those lines. The penalty is even worse in soccer, since you get ejected, which a corner wouldn't in football. I've never had a problem with it in football, and don't really see the difference between that and what happened here. At first, I instinctively leaned towards your logic, but as I think about it more, I think there are a several key differences which must impact the logic. First, in football, the catch can't be presumed, nor can we assume that the pass will be on target. The ball could float a bit and lead the receiver out of the endzone. The receiver could simply drop the ball ... what was that tight end for the Cowboys? The receiver could juggle the ball just enough to not get his feet down. The refs could wrongly rule the receiver out of bounds. Etc... Sure, we "expect" marquee quarterbacks and receivers that would correspond to the level of World Cup soccer players to make such plays, but I don't think it's the "gimme" that the soccer ball was. That ball was clearly and without any doubt going into the back of the net. For the record, I'm not advocating some sort of provisional rule whereby the punsihment is regulated or adjusted based on the likelihood of the particular shot going into the net, but rather pointing out that there is an obvious difference between the two comparisons. Secondly, a goal is so much more important in soccer, at any point during the match. Sure, scoring a TD in a football game is important as well, but simply put, the fundamental differences in the sport don't allow a direct analogy. I think if you want to make a more appropriate analogy, I think you would look at a football game winding down, tied or within one score. Now picture a player running free with nothing but grass in front of him. If he scores, the game is a win for his team. If not, then it isn't and is either a loss or going into overtime. Now suppose a bench player tackles him. What "should" the penalty be? We all know that the game "should" be over. We all know that the bench player "cheated." I think if the player were to be ejected and the ball to be spotted at the 1 yard line would rougly equate to this particular soccer incident. But is that fair? Again, I don't have the answer and I know it's impossible to predict and analyze every particular possibility, regardless of how remote they may be. I'm not saying the rule is awful, just that in this case, I don't think it was fair. What would be? I don't know. I think that in that instance, removing one penalty try for Uraguay would have been "fair." Lastly, I can't help but feel that the timing of the play must somehow factor into the rule. I don't know how and I see problems with the other alternatives. But it's just hard to ignore the fact that that game was OVER. Ghana advances and Uraquay goes home. But what do you do? Count the goal? Who knows. P.S. Some sort of dismiss these points with the argument that Ghana still wins if they convert what is an almost "automatic" and routine play. While I agree they "should" have won along that line of reasoning, I don't think that equates directly to whether or not they "should" have been put in the position to not succeed that they were. It's a toughie for sure ...
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jul 6, 2010 10:39:41 GMT -5
To finish one thought, in other games where a crucial call went against one team, many people point out that there were many other opportunities during the game to make a play that would have preempted the potential for a later call to impact the outcome. While that is true, I don't think that fact trumps the others in this situation.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jul 6, 2010 10:46:33 GMT -5
Suarez did not cheat. He played the game according to the rules and when he committed an infraction, he and his team were subjected to the sport's established penalty for that infraction.
You wanna' change the rules? Fine.
But you can't blame the guy for doing what he did. I'd have done it too and so would ever single other player that has competed in this World Cup if they were in his position. Every. Last. One.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jul 6, 2010 10:54:13 GMT -5
Boz, I totally agree. I'm not blaming him a bit. In fact, anything other than what he did would and should draw criticism. What I am questioning is whether that ruling needs to be ammended somehow.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jul 6, 2010 11:06:39 GMT -5
I think using the word "cheat" is divisive to a degree. I think some view the term differently that others. And in this case, I think the real difference is simply frequency. We have all become familiar with the rule that a foul on the floor when the team is in the bonus results in 2 free throws. Accordingly, we are so accustomed to the intentional foul with a 3 point lead and only seconds on the clock resulting in 2 free throws. But in a sense, is that rule "fair?" Again, you certainly can't assume a 3 pointer will go in, while that ball from the Ghana player was a certainty. Still, I think such questions and analogies are appropriate.
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Jul 6, 2010 12:07:26 GMT -5
I guess my question is, at what point does sportsmanship come into play?
Suppose that Ghanian free kick ends with Muslera diving on the ground. One of the Ghanian players knows that he's going to be late and unless Muslera bobbles it, and he's probably getting sent off. But he wants to help his team win, time is expiring, and there's a slim chance he keeps the ball alive. He goes dangerously in for the tackle, gets sent off, but (woops!) he cleated Muslera in the face and now Muslera can't stay on for PKs. Ghana wins on PKs with Diego Forlan in goal. The Ghanian player knew the potential benefits (rattling/injuring Muslera, possibly keeping the ball alive) and the penalty (red card).
Are you okay with this? Is bad sportsmanship limited only to injuring other players?
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jul 6, 2010 12:54:39 GMT -5
freemoney, I think that's a good question, but I think it is very easy to answer. I think you play the game full speed within the rules -- written and unwritten -- of the game. You don't go into a slide with your cleats in the air (in baseball), even if the 2nd baseman or shortstop is the other team's stud. Running over the catcher is a part of the game and should be encouraged not discouraged. Now obviously, at tee league or Babe Ruth league, no, we don't want kids getting hurt. But at the level we are talking about here, I think you go all out 100%, 100% of the time. I used to play Jai-Alai in an amateur league down in Ocala, Florida. I would run full speed, try as hard as I could to get to the ball instinctively on a routing practice point. It wasn't something I even thought about. I simply tried as hard as I could. Similarly, back in my basketball days, if the ball was heading out of bounds and I could save it by diving, that was what I did. Again, I didn't think about it, but rather, it came instinctively. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back but rather ansering your question. I think the players anticipate the rebound as much as possible. I think they make every effort to make the play , as they should at any other point during the game. But that doesn't mean you play dirty. If some sort of injury comes about during play, then it was "part of the game." That is why I never said anything when Tebow received the concussion at Kentucky last year. It was part of the game. Accordingly, Darnell Dockett will forever be scum on the earth for clearly and blatantly trying to injure opponents outside of the game. Absolute scum of the earth
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jul 6, 2010 14:31:08 GMT -5
Mary Carillo...I mean Pam Ward...I mean John Harkes is such a toolbag.
I appreciate everything he did for US soccer, but I really hate listening to him.
I really wish that ESPN wouldn't give him the final, but I know they will.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 6, 2010 16:04:10 GMT -5
I think it's pretty clear to any practical person that there's an easy line between intentionally injuring someone and everything else.
If we're going down the sportmanship road, shouldn't have Slovenia knocked in an own goal after it was clear the call against the US was wrong? How about Spain on that disallowed Urugayan goal? Why didn't France bow out of the WC after Henry's handball?
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jul 6, 2010 16:20:43 GMT -5
SF, soccer does have a little of that sportsmanship/honor thing to it, but not nearly as much as golf. In any case, I don't think anyone is going to take it to the level of intentioally scoring an own goal just because the ref blew a call earlier. He might blow one -- or two -- AGAINST you next time. I know you were being sarcastic, but still ...
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 6, 2010 18:17:03 GMT -5
The Dutch players were too busy diving.
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Post by HometownHoya on Jul 6, 2010 19:50:36 GMT -5
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jul 6, 2010 20:40:12 GMT -5
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PhillyHoya
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Post by PhillyHoya on Jul 6, 2010 22:38:18 GMT -5
Mary Carillo...I mean Pam Ward...I mean John Harkes is such a toolbag. I appreciate everything he did for US soccer, but I really hate listening to him. I really wish that ESPN wouldn't give him the final, but I know they will. Spanish coverage >>>>> ESPN.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jul 7, 2010 6:50:21 GMT -5
Mary Carillo...I mean Pam Ward...I mean John Harkes is such a toolbag. I appreciate everything he did for US soccer, but I really hate listening to him. I really wish that ESPN wouldn't give him the final, but I know they will. Spanish coverage >>>>> ESPN. Test Patterns>>>>ESPN
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jul 7, 2010 10:24:53 GMT -5
And after I finished my match, I enjoy a beer ... but only Dos Equis. Seriously though, I think you are smart enough to figure out that the point was that even in a practice for an individual sport where the outcome is virtually totally irrelevant, I would still instinctively run all out for each and every ball. Asking the same of World Class athletes in events that matter so much to so many people shouldn't be difficult.
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Post by HometownHoya on Jul 7, 2010 18:05:18 GMT -5
I mean it is the fastest game on earth...I would expect that you were running for every ball Of course they should be running all out every play, but shouldn't the Laker's bench have shown up every single game of the Finals instead of just at home? Anyways back to the real topic: Today's game was interesting. I don't think either team played to their full potential, something that Spain hasn't done this whole tournament. Germany should have won if they were still playing their game but today they didn't. They played passively, letting the Spaniards come to them...at the 20 min mark possession was like 63% - 37% in Spain's favor. Had they been aggressive it would have been better but oh well. Has the potential to be a great final. As long as Netherlands plays well and Spain continues to not play to their ability. ::-)
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