SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 16, 2010 10:33:10 GMT -5
Also, of note, the most recent grad rates you can use is the incoming classes of 2000-2003, since they give everyone six years to graduate.
Let's keep in mind that that whole McCray-Caner-Medley-Jones-Garrison class was a disaster as well. I'm not sure any of them graduated in between DUIs and hitting women.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 16, 2010 10:34:08 GMT -5
I love the "Would we blame the professors?" argument. Uh well, no. Those kids are paying money to the school to educate them. So they have a major stake in the outcome, namely the money is invested and the reward is unattainable without a degree.
Scholarship basketball players are going to school for free so they can make Gary, Maryland, and CBS boatloads of cold hard cash. Nobody in this chain has any incentive unless you make the kid realize he's not going to be one of the .00001% of kids who will make basketball his life.
If you don't think the schools owe it to kids to create culture that places at least SOME value on their future then eligibility should be unlimited and kids should be paid. In other words, make the Terps a professional team sponsored by the university. Otherwise Gary, Maryland, and CBS get their haul and the only one left holding the bag is a kid without a degree who you implicitly told not to worry about graduating because basketball was his ticket.
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Mar 16, 2010 10:35:23 GMT -5
OK, I guess I agree with some of you a bit. But to me it is more of an admissions issue. Georgetown, and any self-respecting school, will serve kids and their schools best by only taking the kids who they think are serious about the academic side of the experience. I don't know how you get any assurances on that in advance, but high school records are probably a good indicator. There are enough student-athletes to fill a roster.
Focusing on who graduates or doesn't is almost too late in the process and is complicated by a lot of factors, including transfers/pros/life events/etc. Some kids try very hard but just can't keep up with the schoolwork - I don't have a problem with that type of situation showing up as a hit against the graduation rate, but it's probably a fault in the admission process.
JTII's philosophy was to take anybody at all regardless of academic standards, give them support and kick them out if they didn't take advantage of the opportunity. To me, that's very harsh and not appropriate for the school or the kids. But his graduation rates were extremely high "for players who stayed four years".
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 16, 2010 10:42:16 GMT -5
Listen, regardless of whether the fault lies with the students or administrators, we can all agree that 8% is an outlier and pretty hard to defend. It is not like you even have a group of programs hovering around that number of the 65 they looked into. The next lowest is at 20%, over 2X UM's rate.
I have no angst against UMCP, but I would hope this is an embarassment to them and take seirously. Really, there is something wrong when so many 4 year players do not graduate. I can understand the early entries and a few guys who get distracted senior year, but come'on 64 of the 65 other programs simply did a better job. Shame on UMD.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Mar 16, 2010 10:48:21 GMT -5
Hey, I love laughing at the Terps as much as the next guy, and those numbers are really, really bad. UMCP and its fans should be embarrassed, but I bet they aren't. Thing is, though, the numbers from this study are from a decade ago. I'm afraid that over the next few years, with all our transfers and a couple of early departures, our numbers might get fairly ugly, too. Am I wrong about that? Just to reiterate, Summers and Green leaving early will hurt, but hopefully not the transfer. Straight from the WaPo article: Terrapins Coach Gary Williams disputed the significance of the figures, which assessed the classes that entered college from 1999 to 2002 and their success in graduating within six years. The statistics cited in the study were the NCAA's Graduation Success Rates, which -- unlike federal graduation rates -- do not penalize schools for transfer students that leave in good academic standing. Gary is full of crap. If he, the program and his players were doing their jobs, his rate should be over 80% when factoring in the players who went pro and became "millionaires." Love how he keeps talking about how this is long past and his current seniors will graduate. Glad to see they have gotten their act together. Too bad he didn't give a crap about a decade's worth of "student-athletes."
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Mar 16, 2010 10:48:59 GMT -5
Two clarifications on the dates and why this data seems so old. (EDIT, looks like SFHoya99 beat me to the punch -- that's what I get for not reading the second page before responding).
a) They are for players who entered college between 1999 and 2002. In other words, these are the Classes of 2003-2006, so the graduation stats are not really from ten years ago, so much as 6-8 years ago. (Mike Sweetney/Omari Faulkner class through Matt Causey/Ray Reed class).
b) on a related note, part of the delay in reporting the data is that it uses statistics for students who graduate within 6 years of entering. So in some cases, a player who leaves early could come back and finish their degree over two years, eventually counting in the program.
That said, Maryland's numbers are a joke. A really bad joke.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 16, 2010 10:52:55 GMT -5
Listen, regardless of whether the fault lies with the students or administrators, we can all agree that 8% is an outlier and pretty hard to defend. It is not like you even have a group of programs hovering around that number of the 65 they looked into. The next lowest is at 20%, over 2X UM's rate. I have no angst against UMCP, but I would hope this is an embarassment to them and take seirously. Really, there is something wrong when so many 4 year players do not graduate. I can understand the early entries and a few guys who get distracted senior year, but come'on 64 of the 65 other programs simply did a better job. Shame on UMD. I can already tell you that I've talked to some Terps this morning and they are neither embarrassed nor taking this seriously. First reaction is to say that "there's no way" Georgetown graduates 82 percent of its basketball players. Talk about missing the point. Essentially, they think every other school in this survey is lying about its numbers, and that Saint Gary and UMCP are the only ones telling the truth. It's a crazy reaction, but not surprising.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Mar 16, 2010 13:25:46 GMT -5
Can we apply John Wallace's JD to make up for DaJuan not getting his BA? jk
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 16, 2010 13:27:21 GMT -5
Twerp fans just don't get it. They whine about this being "old news" and think it's a hatchet job by the Post (they really hate that reporter, Steve Yanda) and assume this is being reported right now in order to screw UMCP. Of course they're illiterate and can't read the article to figure that the annual list of the grad rates for the 65 tourney teams was just released, thus the reason for the article being done at this time.
Gotta love the twerp fan comments: "Another question how does Georgetown graduate its players that can't get into Maryland in the first place?"
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Mar 16, 2010 13:40:44 GMT -5
Given that this is the same fan base that derided Freeman's illness, none of this myopia should come as any surprise.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 16, 2010 13:45:25 GMT -5
What I don't understand is how do you even fail to graduate that many kids who stay four years? I think the Hoyas have maybe 3 in 35 years. Gary's bragging it up that his class was "10 of 12."
You have to remain NCAA eligible right? So let's say even if you slack off your last semester, you need 12 credits per semester the first 3 1/2 just to stay eligible, right? That means you're at 84 or 36 shy of a degree just by staying above water long enough to get through your senior season. Bang out 9 credits a summer and you can even fail one of your final semester classes right?
It seems you have to be seriously asleep at the wheel for 4-year kids to regularly fail to graduate.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Mar 16, 2010 13:48:23 GMT -5
I think Gary is totally awake at the wheel but doesn't really care whether his kids graduate. He just cares that they can stay eligible. Part of his bad relationship with AD, I think.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Mar 16, 2010 14:01:52 GMT -5
I think it's pretty clear what's going on. Maryland is such a hard school, that a lot of players can't get in, and have to go to places like Georgetown. Even the guys who do get it struggle to keep theirs heads above water, because the schoolwork is so difficult. Thus the 8% rate. Just imagine what it would be if they let in all those guys they can't get because of their admissions standards
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 16, 2010 17:09:23 GMT -5
Reading this this morning on the way to work I had to shake my head. Gary Williams always make the situation worse by his defensive posturing. Always. But this was him at his most pathetic, an all-time low. But the worst thing is that no one in the media will take him to task for it.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 16, 2010 17:12:13 GMT -5
Gary's is right that when you have success on the court your graduation number is likely to go down due to early entries, but where he is way off is with 4 year players. If you have a player that stays four years and doesn't graduate (and its not just an isolated case but happens often) there is a problem. Bingo. And it had been like that forever. Add Baxter and a bunch of other guys. They don't graduate their guys at Riot U. And frankly Gary has only had three guys good enough to leave early for the pros since he has been there so why is that used as an excuse? "Steve Blake, you know what he's doing. He's playing for a lot of money. Juan Dixon has made a lot of money during his career, and they both hopefully will come back and get their degrees. Chris Wilcox is a lottery pick, left after his sophomore year. Drew Nicholas did not graduate, but he's had a very successful year, still playing and making a lot of money." [/quote]
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 16, 2010 17:15:27 GMT -5
It's the student's reponsibility to graduate, not the school's. If the NCAA doesn't like kids who don't perform in class playing sports then they should increase the minimum requirements for participation. If a non-athlete fails out of school or doesn't graduate, do we blame the professors or the administration? I'm sorry, but I don't blame Gary on this one. He is a jerk though. If you see a player isn't on track to graduate then obviously he isn't completing his side of the deal. So you pull him. You sit him and if that doesn't work you show him the door. That's what JT did. Also I'm pretty sure Gary gave the routine college coach promise to the parents of the guys he signed that their sons would be expected to go to class and graduate
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 16, 2010 17:50:27 GMT -5
Just how ugly is Congress right now? firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/03/16/2230206.aspxPosted: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:22 PM by Mark Murray Filed Under: Congress From NBC's Luke Russert Just how bad has the partisan environment become in Washington? House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer offered a resolution to honor the University of Maryland for making the NCAA Tournament and for having the ACC Player of the Year, as well as the Coach of the Year on the same team. [Actually it was offered by Rep. Donna Edwards of PG County; Hoyer then spoke in support] Well, California Rep. John Campbell (R) spoke against the measure because last year, Hoyer apparently pulled a resolution from the floor honoring the University of California Irvine's Men's Volleyball team for winning the 2009 national championship. Campbell made a point of saying Maryland wasn't that special because they didn't win a national title and have only made the tournament. He then laid into the Terps for having an 8% graduation rate. [He waived the Washington Post article on the House floor.] Campbell went on to ask for a recorded vote on the measure, which almost never happens. The vote started around 6:00 pm ET. [Wrong: the vote was pushed until Wednesday.] NOTE: Members offer resolutions honoring all sorts of things. Both sides honor universities, sports team, public figures, ethnic groups, social service organization, etc. Rarely are they challenged.
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Thomas
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Post by Thomas on Mar 16, 2010 17:55:42 GMT -5
I think it's pretty clear what's going on. Maryland is such a hard school, that a lot of players can't get in, and have to go to places like Georgetown. Even the guys who do get it struggle to keep theirs heads above water, because the schoolwork is so difficult. Thus the 8% rate. Just imagine what it would be if they let in all those guys they can't get because of their admissions standards Why did you write that, you've just given Gary Williams another EXCUSE the next time the NCAA releases Maryland's terrible graduation rate. HA! HA! Would any of you be surprised if Gary Williams and a large number of Maryland fans actually believed what CTHoya08 wrote there???
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Post by nolahoya on Mar 16, 2010 18:07:26 GMT -5
Just want to add my 2 cents. I have a friend who's son played for Maryland on their basketball team. I won't say what year he "graduated" otherwise you'll figure out who he is. He had enough total credit hours but not enough in any particular major. Go figure. She hadn't been following up assuming that the team had an advisor. So he left after 4 years with a diploma but no major, just a bunch of random courses. Also, my younger daughter was recruited by UVA and went there for a D1 sport. A stellar student who graduated in 3 years summa cum laude. Her first semester there freshman year its mandatory to attend study hall. If you obtain a 3.0 your first semester, study hall is optional. She went one night in the fall and the entire football team was there. She was surprised assuming that the football and basketball players were exempted from this rule. No way. UVA just kicked off Landesberg from their basketball team because of "failure to meet academic expectations". Their star player who probably won't come back and will go pro. There are some schools who do take the role of student athlete seriously.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 16, 2010 18:12:25 GMT -5
Bingo, Nola.
Gary couldn't give a rat's ass if his players graduated. Given the amount of time he spends around them, I find it odd you could maintain that level of self-centeredness not to care if they, you know, had a major.
It's backed by your anecdote. It's backed by facts -- you have to actively try NOT to graduate players to get an 8% grad rate. Actively try. How do you find that many people not interested in an education by accident!
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