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Post by dajuan on Feb 16, 2010 0:23:23 GMT -5
It's the 'sky is falling' threads like these which make this board hard to handle sometimes.
If only JTIII was better at developing big men! Gahhhh! Vernon Macklin should have been a stud! He was a 5 tool player. He could 1) dunk, 2) dribble once and hand the ball to a guard, 3) alley-oop, 4) dunk, 5) look lost. Roy Hibbert was decent, I guess, but when he got to Georgetown anyone could see that he was going to be a star in the League. If only JTIII could have developed him!
Get a grip people.
(I know there are a lot of very reasonable, informed, intelligent people who have tried to ratchet back this hysteria using logical arguments which we all appreciate. Of course I'm not referring to you.)
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Feb 16, 2010 16:12:04 GMT -5
My only problem with the coaching decisions to date have been that he sits Vaughn too much. Vaughn and Monroe have a nice chemistry and Vaughn provides defense and scoring that Benimon and Hollis can't. The only explanation I can think of is that Coach has a foul trouble concern by leaving Vaughn and Monroe on the court too much together - that's fine, but if neither is looking like they are in foul trouble, then I say we stick with the starting five as much as possible.
Others in this thread go the other direction by saying that Vee and Henry should get minutes, but I can't understand why you'd want to play inferior players over superior players when the game is close. 18-21 year-old kids don't need more than a few breathers during a game (which they get from timeouts) and the game they played on Wednesday has no impact on the game they play Saturday unless they are injured.
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Post by youngjeezy on Feb 16, 2010 19:06:58 GMT -5
for the people pimping macklin/rivers/omar... have you kept up with their post-hoya careers? rivers is the PG of a bad indiana team and isn't averaging double digits, and macklin is apparently a fan favorite of florida...but not much more than that.
both are role players on NIT (at best) teams this year. don't kid yourselves that they could be all-world players for georgetown. having them on our roster would not make a considerable difference. rivers' defense is missed, but his offensive game (or lack thereof) offsets that loss, IMO.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 16, 2010 21:17:42 GMT -5
for the people pimping macklin/rivers/omar... have you kept up with their post-hoya careers? rivers is the PG of a bad indiana team and isn't averaging double digits, and macklin is apparently a fan favorite of florida...but not much more than that. both are role players on NIT (at best) teams this year. don't kid yourselves that they could be all-world players for georgetown. having them on our roster would not make a considerable difference. rivers' defense is missed, but his offensive game (or lack thereof) offsets that loss, IMO. Well, I think there's an argument to be made for simply getting minutes in for backups that are at least average level. All of our bench has shown spurts, but on average there's a large drop off when they come in. Hollis has been the closest to a plus -- and he's a skinny wing. Macklin isn't anything special on the boards, but I imagine our defense and rebounding would be better with him out there. It doesn't factor in other items, though, and neither was content with a bench role. So my question would be, why does anyone think that these guys would be content playing that role on our team?
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swhoya
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Post by swhoya on Feb 16, 2010 23:41:03 GMT -5
Wow, let's see, this week we have Wright and Boeheim both lose to sub-par teams, and Calipari needs OT (and some pretty questionable foul calls in his favor) to pull out a win against another team that no one would consider top tier.
Clearly, those teams are just settling for mediocrity unless they get better coaching.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 17, 2010 8:50:27 GMT -5
Can we please stop talking about the Ticket? He didn't like the "system" cuz he didn't know what the system was. He always looked lost on defense (sound familiar Sims haters?) yet found his way into the paint for blocks and was marginally better positioned on offense. Rivers was a very good defender. No taking that away. But, with him in the game, while he'd lock his man down, he'd stifle the offense as he was not a great ballhandler and teams would just sag off of him cuz they knew he wasn't going to shoot and on the off-chance that he did, we were typically out rebounded on his brick.
I'll take kids that buy in like Benimon and Sims and Hollis every day of the week. Best of luck and good riddance to V-Mack and Rivers.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 17, 2010 9:06:48 GMT -5
Rivers bought in while he was here.
Rivers played his role great. He just thought that he was more than a role player. But he played it well when he played. He didn't hurt the team. He helped it when he was here.
Macklin bought in, he just didn't fit in here.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 17, 2010 11:24:26 GMT -5
Really? So as per V-Mack himself when talking about having watched film for the first time LAST YEAR while he was sitting and this little tidbit:
"My freshman and sophomore years at Georgetown, I didn't really cherish basketball that much, I just went out there and played. "
That's a kid that's bought into the system that requires diligent work? Puhlease.
And you really can't argue that JR hurt us on the offensive end. Just can't. He's still awful on offense at Indiana.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 17, 2010 11:40:36 GMT -5
Rivers helped the team. He was a role player. He hurt us on offense as much as Jonathan Wallace hurt us on defense. In other words, he helped us win games, not lose them.
Macklin bought in to the program. He did, what most young players did....not realize how much more effort it takes to be good player at this level....such as studying film. Thats different than not buying in and being insubordinate to the coach. And what he does at Florida now, fits his game much better than here at G-town.
according to you then, I guess Sims, who you just praised, is not buying in either. He has not done the offseason work to be a better player than he was his freshman year. Because he is still young and raw just like Vernon was and plays sparingly. It takes time.
To say good riddance to players who contributed significantly (Rivers) or who were not ready at their stage of development (Macklin), is a bit harsh
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Post by HometownHoya on Feb 17, 2010 11:46:20 GMT -5
I would beg to differ...JWall was much more competant on D then Rivers was on O. We had one of the best defenses in the nation that year, you couldn't have that if JWall was as bad at D as Rivers was on offense.
With Sims, I'm not going to lie, I feel like he reminds me a lot of VMack. Lost on offense, defense consists of shot blocking. When thinking of players on the roster who may potentially transfer Sims was really the first to come to mind. I think that would hurt him tremendously but I could see him doing it.
Why is it too harsh to say good riddance to players that left the program and, mostly in Rivers case, trashed the program after they left? They are no longer our players, they are in fact players of potential opponents, they are no longer our classmates, and most importantly they are no longer Hoyas and they do not bleed Hoya Blue.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 17, 2010 11:57:41 GMT -5
I would beg to differ...JWall was much more competant on D then Rivers was on O. We had one of the best defenses in the nation that year, you couldn't have that if JWall was as bad at D as Rivers was on offense. With Sims, I'm not going to lie, I feel like he reminds me a lot of VMack. Lost on offense, defense consists of shot blocking. When thinking of players on the roster who may potentially transfer Sims was really the first to come to mind. I think that would hurt him tremendously but I could see him doing it. Why is it too harsh to say good riddance to players that left the program and, mostly in Rivers case, trashed the program after they left? They are no longer our players, they are in fact players of potential opponents, they are no longer our classmates, and most importantly they are no longer Hoyas and they do not bleed Hoya Blue. First, I neither praised nor criticized Sims. Additionally, I won't question Sims' commitment as he's one of the most vocal guys on the bench and his teammates seem to love him so he's doing something right. Also, I wouldn't question the commitment of a kid that has shown no reason to warrant it. Just because he's not as up to speed as some other kids doesn't mean he's not working and I can certainly appreciate that. Good riddance for the bashing of the program after the fact. And if equating lack of effort with buying in is wrong, I guess I'm wrong. I think JR worked hard. I think V-Mack didn't. Both bashed the program and, if you saw, I said best wishes and good riddance and meant both parts equally.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 17, 2010 11:58:57 GMT -5
The point is, Wallace sucked on defense. Whether he sucked as bad as Jeremiah on offense does not matter. He sucked on defense. But it didn't cost us games.
Jeremiah sucked on offense. His great defense made up for his liability and we won games, not lose games because of it.
I think it is harsh, because that is not who we are as a program. Georgetown represents class. These are young men who made decisions (right or wrong) that they felt were best for them. We wanted them to do well when they were here. We wish them well when they were gone and appreciated their time here. Saying good riddance is just unnecessary. Move on with life. They have. So should we.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Feb 17, 2010 14:16:50 GMT -5
I don't want to get too involved in this argument, other than to point out that while at Georgetown, Vernon Macklin was not young. The Ticket was born on September 25, 1986--that's right--two full months before Roy Hibbert (December 11, 1986).
I think the_way meant young as in new to college, and thus not ready to step his game (and preparation) up as much as he needed to, which is a fair point.
But right now, Macklin is a 23-year-old college junior, and he still isn't that good.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 17, 2010 14:19:26 GMT -5
Reading comprehension is really not your strong suit. This all started by wondering why we still talk about these guys (translation: move on). I don't disagree that Georgetown represents class or that we wanted them to do well whilst at Georgetown and I wished them well (twice, actually) in their respective futures. I have no problem with them having transferred (the inference of my initial post). I do have a problem with them bashing the program after the fact (repeated again for your benefit). They don't like the program and I (and I'd be shocked if I was alone on this one) didn't like them talking smack after they left. Kids aren't going to excel in situations in which they are unhappy as easily as if they are happy. I'm fine with that. Part ways for your personal reasons and shut up. Good riddance as it clearly wasn't a good fit.
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b52legend
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Post by b52legend on Feb 18, 2010 13:25:29 GMT -5
In being one of the poster's who spurred the discussion of Macklin and Rivers, it was all premised around "Coaching" as the thread's title would suggest, and how their transferring reflects, if at all on JT3's ability to retain players and/or recruit players who intend to stay all four years. Saying "good riddance", doesn't really do anything to add to the discussion. Clearly, with four transfers now in two years, this might be a problem which we as fans have a right to discuss, and I think it is best addressed by mentioning those players by name as opposed to "the unnamed transfers" or some symbol or something. As part of the discussion, it is certainly relevant to look at why they might have transferred and if their departure hurt this current years team in any way. No one is saying that Macklin and Rivers would be superstars, or even starters, but I think both could be contributing quality minutes off of the bench. Ultimately to be continuously successful we have to recruit guys who are able to play those type of roles. We simply have not recruited the type of players who come in and are content in being role players, absent PE Jr., or who are willing to ride the pine for two years and then really blossom as an upper classmen. There is no harm in discussing how all of this effects the team and whether or not it reflects poorly on the coach.
I personally love JT3 and think that, as you pointed out, there was really nothing that he could have done to remedy the decisions these players made to head elsewhere. I think what you are seeing as a result is a more targeted recruiting approach, with an eye towards building depth with some key role players, while at the same time recruiting a critical mass of star talent. Will Benimon or Vee transfer when they don't become starters, no, because they realize I think that if that opportunity ever presents itself it will be their senior year. Laying out a plan to have a full roster of scholarship players is very important, and I think there have been some lessons learned with all of the transfers.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 18, 2010 14:26:02 GMT -5
Great points.
I think III still has a learning curve when it comes to building a roster.
I think you can recruit kids who can accept the roles that are lesser and stay 4 years. It just boils down to being more stringent when recruiting a kid. Its a tough job, but still doable.
I think Gary Williams does the best job of this at Maryland. Probably too good of a job, because he doesn't get enough blue-chippers....if you ask their fanbase. But Gary normally gets guys who may not be all-american, 5-star, but that do develop, and stay 4 years and become pretty good players.
I'm not saying have the entire roster like that, because thats why Gary hasn't won big at Maryland for a number of years now, but still get some guys like that.
I think with III, he has to do a better job of getting that right mix of players when recruiting. I think he is aware of it, with his most recent recruiting. We have the studs in Monroe, Wright, Freeman, etc....but a little short on the support/role players. I think guys like Vaughn and Clark fit this description. And guys like Sanford and Sims too, although they are still young and developing.
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Feb 18, 2010 15:53:06 GMT -5
I agree _way, but Wattad and Nikita kind of fit the bill you describe. I'm personally glad they are gone because I don't think either provided any value whatsoever. I doubt JTIII promised them playing time during recruiting.
Ideally, we'd recruit these type of "role players" and then encourage them to explore their other opportunities after a year or two if they can't even serve the role they were expected to fill. Sounds harsh, but locking up schollies for guys that can't compete in the Big East is not going to help win championships either.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 18, 2010 16:01:14 GMT -5
I agree _way, but Wattad and Nikita kind of fit the bill you describe. I'm personally glad they are gone because I don't think either provided any value whatsoever. I doubt JTIII promised them playing time during recruiting. Ideally, we'd recruit these type of "role players" and then encourage them to explore their other opportunities after a year or two if they can't even serve the role they were expected to fill. Sounds harsh, but locking up schollies for guys that can't compete in the Big East is not going to help win championships either. I agree, which why i say III is still learning in this aspect. I think Wattad and Nikita were shots in the dark...so to speak. I think if the staff were better at evaluating them, they probably would have went into a different direction.
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Feb 18, 2010 16:08:46 GMT -5
Gary? Man, hell nah. I think Coach K is a better example. Duke is where Mickey D's All Americans go to die.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Feb 18, 2010 16:19:26 GMT -5
Uh, oh, the dreaded HoyaSouth has resurfaced. Just in time to tell us how bad we are.
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