Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 11, 2010 15:06:19 GMT -5
Actually, I rather enjoyed her gymnastics. Writing 101: pick a theme, stick to it. Ruth was determined to exonerate Reid and dismiss the double standard. Well done, Ms. Marcus.
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guru
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Post by guru on Jan 11, 2010 15:19:38 GMT -5
but yes, it is true that if you hear a person speak for long enough, you can probably make a good guess whether he/she is white or black I call b---s--- on anyone who tells me that they knew Rick Astley was a redheaded white guy -- from England no less -- when they first heard him sing. ;D I usually try to steer clear of these predictable Monday Morning McLaughlin Group Hoyatalk threads, but I couldn't resist wondering about something when this one kept cropping up in the "Last 10 Posts" link: Would the people defending/rationalizing these comments be twisting themselves into such pretzels had it been said by a prominent Republican leader, and not a Democrat?
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Post by strummer8526 on Jan 11, 2010 15:37:11 GMT -5
I call b---s--- on anyone who tells me that they knew Rick Astley was a redheaded white guy -- from England no less -- when they first heard him sing. ;D I usually try to steer clear of these predictable Monday Morning McLaughlin Group Hoyatalk threads, but I couldn't resist wondering about something when this one kept cropping up in the "Last 10 Posts" link: Would the people defending/rationalizing these comments be twisting themselves into such pretzels had it been said by a prominent Republican leader, and not a Democrat? Quite possibly, I would. I hate the way race is discussed in this country, and I frequently consider reactions to comments about race to be nonsense. So yeah, if Rudy or McCain or someone had come out and said that Obama has qualities that make him more palatable to white America than might other black men, I would defend that. Again, there is the question of context. If a Republican said the same thing, but their point was "Don't trust Obama b/c he's 'playing white'" or "Obama has 'turned on' the black community," THEN I might take issue with the point being made. But Reid's statements in the same context are fine w/ me. But I do agree that if a Republican said it, the Democrats who are defending Reid would be attacking that Republican. Of course, the other side of that coin is that the Republicans who are attacking Reid would be defending the Republican who said it. So both parties would do their happy-dance to the other side of the issue. And those of us who actually have half-intelligent and moderate views would, as usual, be left confused.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Jan 11, 2010 15:43:50 GMT -5
Well,here is what CNN says (who knows how accurate this is): Seems to me that Reid was being catty and negative, and looks to me like the "speaking the truth" and "he's just saying how racist American voters are" stuff is just typical mental gymnastics by some on the left. Why not just go the route that others are -- yeah, Reid messed up, but let's give him a pass based on his actions / record. Much more intellectually honest.
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Post by strummer8526 on Jan 11, 2010 16:06:22 GMT -5
Well,here is what CNN says (who knows how accurate this is): Seems to me that Reid was being catty and negative, and looks to me like the "speaking the truth" and "he's just saying how racist American voters are" stuff is just typical mental gymnastics by some on the left. Why not just go the route that others are -- yeah, Reid messed up, but let's give him a pass based on his actions / record. Much more intellectually honest. How on earth do you get "catty and negative" from those excerpts from the book? I mean, maybe he was being negative, but who knows? I read it as Reid simply assessing whether Obama was electable and concluding that he was because he was not "too black" for certain segments of this country. I might change positions if anyone showed something that led me to believe the context is different ("catty," "negative," or otherwise), but I just don't see that here. And I think it's actually more intellectually honest to say "On the face of it, what he said is factually accurate" than to just say "He's a good guy, so we should let it slide."
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 11, 2010 16:24:36 GMT -5
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Jan 11, 2010 16:51:58 GMT -5
How on earth do you get "catty and negative" from those excerpts from the book? I mean, maybe he was being negative, but who knows? I read it as Reid simply assessing whether Obama was electable and concluding that he was because he was not "too black" for certain segments of this country. I might change positions if anyone showed something that led me to believe the context is different ("catty," "negative," or otherwise), but I just don't see that here. I was talking about this: The authors write that "Reid was convinced, in fact, that Obama's race would help him more than hurt him in a bid for the Democratic nomination" The way the CNN article was written, I took this as a different conversation he had from the complexion / dialect stuff. Seems like Reid is talking only about race, not the lightness or darkness of his complexion, and saying that his race would help him more than hurt him. I also saw "with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one" as a dig. You're right, it all depends on context but those inferences are just as reasonable as your assumption that Reid in just those few words was expounding on race, dialects, and whatever else.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 11, 2010 19:13:01 GMT -5
I happen to agree with Mr. Will that there is no evidence of racism in Senator ringside's comments about the President. I believe Senator Reid to be dishonest, wildly partisan and bereft of morality, but no bigot. My complaint is not with what he said, but the instant benefit of the doubt afforded Reid by the media and the Sharpton/Jackson crowd who would be howling for a Republican scalp right about now.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Jan 11, 2010 19:49:49 GMT -5
I happen to agree with Mr. Will that there is no evidence of racism in Senator ringside's comments about the President. I believe Senator Reid to be dishonest, wildly partisan and bereft of morality, but no bigot. My complaint is not with what he said, but the instant benefit of the doubt afforded Reid by the media and the Sharpton/Jackson crowd who would be howling for a Republican scalp right about now. The Sharpton/Jackson crowd aren't howling because Reid did some excellent damage control. 1. Reid apologized immediately. Most people heard about the apology before or right when they heard about the remarks. 2. Reid worked the phones hard. He called every black leader he could think of to personally ask for their support. That sort of personal attention is a nice ego boost to the person he's calling. You can get a long way by massaging the egos of ego-driven people like Sharpton and Jackson. 3. Reid has a clean record as far as racial issues. When Trent Lott put his foot in his mouth, it made people look at his history on race issues, and they didn't like what they saw. In Reid's case, there's not much to see. Should Reid's skill at damage control get him off scot free on this? I don't think so, but that's how things work in DC. I personally would love it if he stood down, because then we might get Dick Durbin as majority leader.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 11, 2010 19:52:08 GMT -5
I also believe there was no racism on the part of Reid and what he said was factually correct. I also believe what Lott said contained no racism. I also believe what George Allen said contained no racism.
Also, to refute something said earlier, both Lott and Allen apologized profusely and repeatedly, just like Reid is now doing.
It's time we got past finding racist comment in things where there is none.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 11, 2010 22:23:06 GMT -5
I was talking to a negro friend of mine about this today...
...admit it, if you read that in any other thread you would say "What the F***? Did he just say "negro?""
I don't think what Reid said was racist but if every black-rimmed glasses, corduroy d-nozzle I lived around in Seattle wouldn't have used "words matter" as the argument for avoiding anything that rhymed with a racial slur (which means anything that's not the "correct term of the minute"), I'd have sympathy.
Reid's an old dude and used an old dude word. If ed said "negro" on this board, he would be discounted as a racist and you know it. And this is message board, not Congress. I'm not sure that last point got across what I was trying to convey but Congress SHOULD be more cognizant of what they say.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Jan 12, 2010 0:34:03 GMT -5
I also believe there was no racism on the part of Reid and what he said was factually correct. I also believe what Lott said contained no racism. I also believe what George Allen said contained no racism. Also, to refute something said earlier, both Lott and Allen apologized profusely and repeatedly, just like Reid is now doing. It's time we got past finding racist comment in things where there is none. Agreed on all counts, but it doesn't tell the whole story. In terms of the apologies, timing matters. Reid got very lucky in that he knew his comments were going to be published and was able to pre-emptively apologize. Lott and Allen didn't have that benefit and were only able to apologize after others demanded it. The headline "Politician admits insensitive remark, apologizes" has a very different dynamic than "Black leaders demand apology from Politician." Again, Reid got very lucky. As far as Allen and Lott, I agree that what they said wasn't racist. Allen was insensitive (like Reid was), and Lott was just plain stupid. I didn't follow the Allen case too closely, but I know Lott's downfall wasn't what he said, but the subsequent spotlight on his past positions on race issues (like voting for Strom Thurmond).
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 12, 2010 0:46:42 GMT -5
As far as Allen and Lott, I agree that what they said wasn't racist. Allen was insensitive (like Reid was), and Lott was just plain stupid. I didn't follow the Allen case too closely, but I know Lott's downfall wasn't what he said, but the subsequent spotlight on his past positions on race issues (like voting for Strom Thurmond). Did Lott's downfall even have anything to do with any of this, or was it Frist / Bush?
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 12, 2010 0:56:22 GMT -5
An early apology from Allen was also conditional - "I do apologize if he's offended by that" - and followed his campaign manager's denial that Allen needed to apologize, when it was pretty clear that the remark was inappropriate. Allen's phone call to the person at issue in the macaca statement was made nine days after the incident.
Reports later followed of Allen's frequent use of the N-word as a college student, and these reports included direct quotes attributed to his colleagues and teammates. Allen also referred to a teammate as Wizard because he shared the name of a well-known KKK figure. The list goes on. His history of insensitivity became public fodder and a taint on his service, claims of victimhood to the contrary.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Jan 12, 2010 21:01:06 GMT -5
but yes, it is true that if you hear a person speak for long enough, you can probably make a good guess whether he/she is white or black I call b---s--- on anyone who tells me that they knew Rick Astley was a redheaded white guy -- from England no less -- when they first heard him sing. ;D Yeah, I thought Dusty Springfield was black until I made a point of downloading all the album covers for my songs in iTunes. Per Reid, his problem isn't so much the quote as the fact that he's a man who would use the word "negro" in casual conversation. I don't know if this is due to his age (I certainly don't know anyone near my age of any political persuasion who would ever utter it), but it's extremely creepy nonetheless. Also as an interesting tidbit, it seems Reid was burned by Halperin here; at the time, he was speaking on deep background. I'm going to have to disagree with your characterizations of Lott's remarks, Boz, I think you're being way too chartiable. Thurmond's presidential run was about one thing and one thing only: segregation. To praise a man on his birthday is one thing, to specifically praise his white supremacist presidential campaign is another. Lott was either extremely ignorant, which I find unlikely, or acting out of racial malice. As for Clinton, I'm not willing to give much credence to this remark without more sourcing. The report seems to be fourth-hand, which is pretty much gossip (that is, Clinton told Kennedy who told someone else who told someone else who told Halperin). Also, Elvado, just so we're clear, are you saying "Barack the Magic Negro" is not racist but "negro dialect" is? Wow me, Dittohead.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 12, 2010 22:33:08 GMT -5
I call b---s--- on anyone who tells me that they knew Rick Astley was a redheaded white guy -- from England no less -- when they first heard him sing. ;D Also, Elvado, just so we're clear, are you saying "Barack the Magic Negro" is not racist but "negro dialect" is? Wow me, Dittohead. Barack the Magic Negro is satire. It's a combination of a popular song and a Spike Lee term. So whether it's funny or not, it's in a different arena the Reid's comments because satire is a different standard (Family Guy, anyone?). Reid seriously said the word negro like it was totally cool! Like I said, he doesn't seem to mean any harm by it, it's just ridiculous that any guy in public life hasn't heard the news that "negro" isn't the best term to use.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 13, 2010 7:14:10 GMT -5
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 13, 2010 11:01:27 GMT -5
Also, Elvado, just so we're clear, are you saying "Barack the Magic Negro" is not racist but "negro dialect" is? Wow me, Dittohead. For the record, "Barack the Magic Negro" is both offensive and racist. I think Mr. Limbaugh should immediately resign from his elected post in the United States Senate. Finally, unless my ailing memory is fading, there were plenty of folks on the left lambasting Limbaugh for that song parody. Last point on this one from me. I don't really believe Reid had any ill will or malice in his mind when he made the statements in question. He's an old man who used an old man's words quite inartfully. My beef is with what used to be the mainstream media in this country and its absolute refusal to treat left and right equally.
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Post by strummer8526 on Jan 13, 2010 11:46:15 GMT -5
"I don't really believe Reid had any ill will or malice in his mind when he made the statements in question. He's an old man who used an old man's words quite inartfully."
Well that's the difference between Reid's ridiculously dated vocaulary and Limbaugh's song parody. There was malice behind Limbaugh's use of the word. And that's why people were more upset. One person used the word in the context of a factual statement about a black man's electability. The other used it to mock and deride that same black man. Is it really not clear to you why one might be offensive and the other is not?
It's not like I'm saying every parody that involves race is "racist" or some horrible offense against that needs to get blown out of proportion. If South Park had a "Magic Negro" song, I would find it funny, likely because it would be artfully woven into a funny story with a decent message. But then again, the South Park writers poke fun at everyone equally. Rush is entirely one-sided, which is again, why many are more likely to find his use of the word offensive.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 13, 2010 12:02:57 GMT -5
One man is also an entertainer paid to get ratings. The other is in the middle of taking over 16% of our economy with his pals in Congress. He has to be more careful than does a radio blowhard.
However, your point is well-taken. Rush offended on purpose. Reid did it accidentally. Which is worse? My Mom always said a gentlemen is never rude accidentally.
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