|
Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 22, 2009 11:34:48 GMT -5
The problem is that playing indecisively for 5 minutes at the 5 may hurt us more than for 10 minutes at the 4. I don't think Henry has the confidence right now we need at either position - hopefully Coach and the staff figure out how to help him get it over the next few games.
|
|
hoyajoker07
Century (over 100 posts)
"This league deserves a better class of basketball"
Posts: 140
|
Post by hoyajoker07 on Dec 22, 2009 11:46:15 GMT -5
Julian got enough playing time to show what he could do last year. Thats why, as others have pointed out, its not a shock to anybody what he is now based on what he did last year. The only difference is, that he has evolved and grown as a player. which usually occurs for players. Henry has done neither. Sims shows nothing on the court. Last year or this year. It's not a shock to ANYBODY? Really? Sure, he had his moments last year, but nothing that prepared me for the way he's played this year. I feel like a lot of the excitement this year about him has been surprise!
|
|
tarkman
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 130
|
Post by tarkman on Dec 22, 2009 12:13:06 GMT -5
Julian got enough playing time to show what he could do last year. Thats why, as others have pointed out, its not a shock to anybody what he is now based on what he did last year. The only difference is, that he has evolved and grown as a player. which usually occurs for players. Henry has done neither. Sims shows nothing on the court. Last year or this year. It's not a shock to ANYBODY? Really? Sure, he had his moments last year, but nothing that prepared me for the way he's played this year. I feel like a lot of the excitement this year about him has been surprise! Count me as one who is pleasently shocked and awed.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,744
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 22, 2009 12:27:19 GMT -5
Richfame,
I am not in disagreement that at times, Henry has looked lost. I think people are wildly overstating it -- the posts here give me an image of someone who can't even find center court -- but yes, he doesn't look consistently confident.
That wasn't my problem. My problem is with the idea that a) Henry doesn't show any potential for growth and b) that Julian was some obvious breakthrough.
Julian's been incredible this year. Henry is far from guaranteed of making that leap, but he's far from guaranteed of not making it.
Personally, I think he'd perform better with a bit more time. He's pressing when he gets in.
|
|
cnyhoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 399
|
Post by cnyhoya on Dec 22, 2009 16:16:56 GMT -5
It's not a shock to ANYBODY? Really? Sure, he had his moments last year, but nothing that prepared me for the way he's played this year. I feel like a lot of the excitement this year about him has been surprise! Count me as one who is pleasently shocked and awed. Count me as shocked too. It is the story of the season so far, IMHO.
|
|
|
Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 22, 2009 17:05:39 GMT -5
Richfame, I am not in disagreement that at times, Henry has looked lost. I think people are wildly overstating it -- the posts here give me an image of someone who can't even find center court -- but yes, he doesn't look consistently confident. That wasn't my problem. My problem is with the idea that a) Henry doesn't show any potential for growth and b) that Julian was some obvious breakthrough. Julian's been incredible this year. Henry is far from guaranteed of making that leap, but he's far from guaranteed of not making it. Personally, I think he'd perform better with a bit more time. He's pressing when he gets in. Always a tough call - when can we afford to give him the time to improve and still survive the mistakes along the way. Unfortunately it becomes that much more difficult after tomorrow, but we really need some help down low, and we all hope Henry can improve enough to help out.
|
|
chep3
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,314
|
Post by chep3 on Dec 22, 2009 17:20:39 GMT -5
I have to take the side of joker and cny also. I am flat out shocked by Julian's development. In fact, if you go back to what most on this board were saying in the offseason, I think the vast majority of people thought Henry would be getting the starting job, not Julian.
Here are some Kenpom statistics re Julian and Henry from last year:
% Minutes - Henry 21.8 Julian 20.9 ORating - Henry 90.5 Julian 88.6 TS% - Henry 44.9 Julian 47.8 OReb - Henry 7.9 Julian 11.3 DReb - Henry 13.2 Julian 12.1 TO Rate - Henry 20.2 Julian 29.8 Assist Rate - Henry 5.7 Julian 14.2
All in all, looks to me like 2 guys who were pretty similar in many ways. The discrepancy between the two players is now Julian has vastly increased nearly all of those numbers while Henry's development is much more modest. In fact, for all the crap Henry's been getting on this board, really the only thing that's borne out by the stats is the TOs. I think SF has it right that Henry's pressing, and that's definitely something that needs to be fixed. He's not there yet clearly. But to say that somehow the ship has sailed on Henry Sims is premature, and to say that Julian somehow showed significantly more promise last year is revisionist history.
|
|
lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,440
|
Post by lichoya68 on Dec 22, 2009 19:47:24 GMT -5
NIKITA GONE HENRY MUST GET MEAN WRIGHT NOW NO KIDDING TEMPUS FUGIT LIKE QUICKY COME ON HENRY NEED TO HELP THE BENCH TO DOMINANCE START WITH HARVARD PLEASE NOW NEED YOU NOW GO HOYAS GO HENRY ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,420
|
Post by the_way on Dec 22, 2009 21:48:12 GMT -5
i don't know, i just watch the games. i don't sit down with calculators.
the game tape doesn't lie.
Julian's ability this year is not a shock.
Sometimes perception is reality. Julian was not perceived to be a great player coming here. Henry was.
Hence, why the majority of the board feel a certain way about Henry and they feel a certain way about Julian.
Throw out the extraneous stuff. Focus on what matters. How do guys play....on the court, regardless of stars or scouting services accolades.
Julian doing what he is capable of doing based on the skillset he has displayed on the court his entire time here at G-town.
Henry is doing what he is capable of doing based on the skillset he has displayed on the court his entire time here at G-town.
If folks are surprised, then that is understandable. Perception is sometimes reality for some.
|
|
NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,926
Member is Online
|
Post by NCHoya on Dec 22, 2009 22:06:59 GMT -5
It is not revisionist history, sometimes I think you guys look at or analyze the box scores more than you WATCH the games.
What is it with this board statistcal analysis. I understand sometimes stats can be meaningful but most times you can find stats that contradict what you just proved. Besides, with such small minutes played by both last season, any stat can get biased very easily by one good or bad outlier.
Based on what I saw, by the end of the season JV was getting very comfortable in his role and could make moves around the basket. I could go back and find the posts where me and the_way were in agreement that JV showed that promise if you want, but I see no point in wasting my time.
I am not against Sims at all, but you can just watch the game and see how lost Henry looked and how composed JV was last year and it continues this year. I do not need to know the offensive efficieny ratios to see a guy who gets it and a guy who has a long way to go.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,744
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 23, 2009 3:35:08 GMT -5
The way, that was cliche ridden even for you.
I watch every game, sometimes two or three times. I see a lot of potential in Henry. You don't. Fine.
But don't try to act as if players can't improve year to year or as if it was inevitable that Julian improved this much. The way claimed Julian got more PT last year as some kind of proof. He didn't.
I fail to see why improvement for Henry can not happen; until either of you has a better argument than because I say so, you're not going to convince me. The "because I say so" debate style frankly makes me more skeptical of youropinion. As does the tired "stats guy in the basement" argument.
Not knowing math is not something to be proud of. Neither is ignoring facts because they disagree with you.
|
|
AvantGuardHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
"It was when I found out I could make mistakes that I knew I was on to something."
Posts: 1,481
|
Post by AvantGuardHoya on Dec 23, 2009 6:44:54 GMT -5
The inclination by some -- who may have no more insight into basketball talent and potential than the wall in front of me -- to throw kids under the bus continually amazes me.
|
|
|
Post by bigelephant on Dec 23, 2009 7:59:36 GMT -5
I don't watch games with calculators,stat sheets and computers. I go to have a great time when they win and feel miserable after they lose. I'm just a long time fan - and Julian was a surprise. He makes the game more fun to watch and is greatly helping the team. Henry is young ,green and still raw. He will come on because he has a lot of talent which can, is and will be developed. Stick in there Henry and if you make a mistake so does eveyone else. Keep improving and giving it all you got every nite.
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,560
|
Post by DanMcQ on Dec 23, 2009 8:23:02 GMT -5
Henry is young ,green and still raw. He will come on because he has a lot of talent which can, is and will be developed. Stick in there Henry and if you make a mistake so does eveyone else. Keep improving and giving it all you got every nite. This is the right attitude. To continually carp on a kid who is young but trying hard, who has talent that likely will develop, simply because he isn't meeting your pre-conceived notions of what he should be at this point is counter-productive at best. The coaching staff believe in him and they have a lot more evidence to base their judgment on than any compilation of stats or single game watching is going to produce.
|
|
chep3
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,314
|
Post by chep3 on Dec 23, 2009 9:18:40 GMT -5
It is not revisionist history, sometimes I think you guys look at or analyze the box scores more than you WATCH the games. What is it with this board statistcal analysis. I understand sometimes stats can be meaningful but most times you can find stats that contradict what you just proved. Besides, with such small minutes played by both last season, any stat can get biased very easily by one good or bad outlier. Based on what I saw, by the end of the season JV was getting very comfortable in his role and could make moves around the basket. I could go back and find the posts where me and the_way were in agreement that JV showed that promise if you want, but I see no point in wasting my time. I am not against Sims at all, but you can just watch the game and see how lost Henry looked and how composed JV was last year and it continues this year. I do not need to know the offensive efficieny ratios to see a guy who gets it and a guy who has a long way to go. I don't watch a game with a calculator either, I just thought it might be interesting to look to see whether the facts bore out what I thought. And, turns out, it did. There were certainly games where I thought Julian looked more comfortable. And there were games where Henry looked more comfortable. But fact of the matter is, you have to look at facts here because this entire situation smacks of hindsight bias. Julian has developed and turned into a really promising player. Therefore, he must have been more comfortable by the end of the year. But really lets look at minutes it points down the stretch. I'm sorry if this is too stat intensive, but I trust the box scores a little more than perceptions about individual games that occurred 9 months ago in a stretch where all of us fans thought every game was miserable. Team Mins Pts Rebs Duke 6 2 1 WVA 4 0 1 SHU 7 4 1 Cincy 5 0 0 Marquette 4 0 0 Rutgers 2 0 0 Cincy 9 2 2 Cuse 11 5 2 USF 12 2 3 Marquette 5 2 0 L'ville 8 4 3 Nova 10 0 1 SJU 12 2 1 Depaul 7 0 2 SJU 10 2 4 So, I just don't see it. I see games down the stretch (USF, Nova, Depaul, SJU, SJU) where JTIII trusted Henry with more minutes than Julian. In fact, JTIII trusted Nikita more than both guys. So whatever you and the_way were seeing, I guess JTIII and I were missing. Both Henry and Julian were marginal players last year. There is a reason that Julian seems to set career highs every other game this season. He is VASTLY improved over last year. Players develop at different rates. The fact that Julian has made huge a jump over last year shouldn't mean that Henry hasn't improved either. Also, no one saw promise in a 12 point 4 board 1 block game? Because that literally just happened 2.5 weeks ago.
|
|
chep3
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,314
|
Post by chep3 on Dec 23, 2009 9:51:25 GMT -5
Sometimes perception is reality. Julian was not perceived to be a great player coming here. Henry was. Hence, why the majority of the board feel a certain way about Henry and they feel a certain way about Julian. Throw out the extraneous stuff. Focus on what matters. How do guys play....on the court, regardless of stars or scouting services accolades. Wait so Henry (RSCI ranking 51) was supposed to be great but Julian (RSCI ranking 66) wasn't? People didn't go nuts over Julian because, as far as I knew, we didn't recruit him heavily. Therefore, there was no background level of familiarity that let people get excited. But for someone like me who doesn't see anyone play in HS, I was as excited by Julian as Henry because all the ranking services seem to think they were pretty even. You're right about this perception being reality for some. I just think that argument doesn't cut the way you want it to.
|
|
tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,321
|
Post by tashoya on Dec 23, 2009 9:58:57 GMT -5
Here's what I can infer from the Julian/Henry thing:
Julian busted his butt between the end of last season and the start of the current one. Not remotely debatable because, regardless of who saw the "diamond in the rough", the kid has made a HUGE jump. If you could have predicted him playing this well and looking as good as he has you're A) a liar; B) a psychic.
Henry will be fine. He's developing a little slower. I'm sure the fact that he's 6' 11" and built like a pipecleaner makes it more difficult. I don't know how hard Henry has or has not worked because we haven't seen the JV-like jump but he sure seems to want to play and, as such, I'm going to assume that he's putting in the effort. Effort plus our coaching staff equals improvement. I expect that he'll be just fine.
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,560
|
Post by DanMcQ on Dec 23, 2009 10:00:26 GMT -5
Julian clearly worked his ass off in the offseason. We're seeing the fruits of that hard effort now. He is to be commended.
Henry did the same thing as far as I have been told. He's farther behind on the curve than Julian perhaps in part because he's on the young side for his class. As others have said, if the coaches aren't seeing promise (and hard work) he wouldn't be playing as much as he is.
I saw Roy Hibbert play against the Celtics last night. He is still a work in progress, but that wasn't the clumsy slow freshman Hoya I remember. Not by a long shot. Patience rewarded there.
|
|
chep3
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,314
|
Post by chep3 on Dec 23, 2009 10:11:25 GMT -5
Henry did the same thing as far as I have been told. He's farther behind on the curve than Julian perhaps in part because he's on the young side for his class. Not only that but one is a sophomore and one is a junior. Though Julian's only in his 2nd year with us, he does have an additional year of experience at this level.
|
|
PopeJohn2
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Ultimate bailout is yet to come and unavoidable. Uncle Sam gonna pay your debt for you!
Posts: 1,465
|
Post by PopeJohn2 on Dec 23, 2009 10:32:33 GMT -5
i think this thread should be deleted. in fact, al threads that go negative on current players should be deleted. merry xmas.
|
|