Some quick thoughts on the first three games

[SFHoya99]

CO posted the YTD team stats and YTD individual stats on HP for the first three games.

Some thoughts:

• D Rebounding has been good so far against a range of competition. It's at 73.2% -- which we won't keep up in BE play but it's a good place to start. We were nowhere near here last year.
  
  
• It's been a team effort to get there. Monroe's 20% has been supplemented by huge gains by Austin and Clark -- at 13% and 15%. Sims has been at 17% in limited time. Julian Vaughn is still at a disappointing 12%.
  
  
• Turnovers are even more a worse disaster than last year. Hopefully the offense will start to click and we'll take better care of the ball.
  
  
• Want to get the ball into Greg? We are. He has a 30% usage rate and a 30% shot percentage. He's just not as efficient this year because of poor foul shooting and turnovers.
  
  
• The outside shooting is a little better - 35%. The issue is still who is shooting. Clark, Austin and Wright -- our shooters -- are 16 for 37. Everyone else is 1-11.
  

[lichoya68]

good fair points step it up hoyas step it up go hoysa

[ahoya2]

Despite the numbers, Vaughn I think has looked much better. Sims still seems totally lost. Hopefully he is a big man who is just late maturing. Once we get into the BE I have concerns about ball handling at the point and rebounding. We'll see.

[kghoya]

my biggest worry is that sims isnt up to the challenge

id love to know how that went wrong

[harwoodhoya]

I feel our talent pool has dropped drastically. I think we will be on the NCAA bubble. Well beat some good teams and lose a few bad games. Now if our bench develops well be fine but frontline depth is scare. Our transfers are starting to haunt us.

[thehandicapper]

Nov 22, 2009 23:58:58 GMT -5 harwoodhoya said:

I feel our talent pool has dropped drastically. I think we will be on the NCAA bubble. Well beat some good teams and lose a few bad games. Now if our bench develops well be fine but frontline depth is scare. Our transfers are starting to haunt us.

Agreed. The depth of this team is very concerning. I feel that JTIII has let down Monroe, Wright, Free, and Clark by not bringing in recruits that are ready to contribute this season. We really needed at least one more big man. It is a shame to the program that we were unable to land someone.

[cnyhoya]

Nov 23, 2009 9:50:55 GMT -5 thehandicapper said:

Nov 22, 2009 23:58:58 GMT -5 harwoodhoya said:

I feel our talent pool has dropped drastically. I think we will be on the NCAA bubble. Well beat some good teams and lose a few bad games. Now if our bench develops well be fine but frontline depth is scare. Our transfers are starting to haunt us.

Agreed. The depth of this team is very concerning. I feel that JTIII has let down Monroe, Wright, Free, and Clark by not bringing in recruits that are ready to contribute this season. We really needed at least one more big man. It is a shame to the program that we were unable to land someone.

I hate to pile on, but this is very true, and I agree.

I have thought for some time now, that in order to counterbalance the early departures, transfers, and inevitable disappointments in player development, a program needs to bring in 4 quality recruits a year.

That way a program can reload, and continue to thrive. Not every McDonald's AA is going to be All-Big East (as we are seeing).

As it is now, I feel for the main core of 4-5 that we have. They are great kids, and there must be enormous pressure on them.

[strummer8526]

I agree that there might be some depth concerns, yes. But I hardly see this as a "drop off" from the bench in our most successful season. In '06–'07, we had our starting 5, Pat, Vern, Rivers, Tyler...

And now, off the bench were have Sims, Hollis, Vee, Nikita.

Tyler was a "team" kinda guy, but not part of our in-game talent pool.

Vern was a huge step down from Roy every time he touched the floor. He had a good game against Davidson and we lost. I don't think Vaughn is a huge drop from Vern. In fact, I think by the middle of the season, he will be better than '06–'07 Vern.

Rivers was an offensive black hole. Some will disagree, but I think Clark can play the JR defensive role. So maybe we're missing the extra body and Clark might get a little more tired, but I think the net talent of Sapp + Rivers is there in Clark.

So really, what we're looking at is Sims versus Pat. And I think that is our talent drop. But it's not an insurmountable one.

Honestly, I don't feel bad for Greg and Chris in terms of their being thrown out on the court with too much pressure and not enough talent on the bench. I think our biggest drops in talent are Wallace and Jeff --> Chris and Greg. So it's not like Chris and Greg are victims here. They're actually the biggest talent drop-offs, in my opinion (except Sims, as compared to Pat). That being said, they are enormously talented and can probably get better. How we end up this season will depend on those two the same as it depended on Wallace and Jeff.

[capcenterhoya]

Nov 23, 2009 10:07:14 GMT -5 cnyhoya said:

Nov 23, 2009 9:50:55 GMT -5 thehandicapper said:

Agreed. The depth of this team is very concerning. I feel that JTIII has let down Monroe, Wright, Free, and Clark by not bringing in recruits that are ready to contribute this season. We really needed at least one more big man. It is a shame to the program that we were unable to land someone.

I hate to pile on, but this is very true, and I agree.

I have thought for some time now, that in order to counterbalance the early departures, transfers, and inevitable disappointments in player development, a program needs to bring in 4 quality recruits a year.

That way a program can reload, and continue to thrive. Not every McDonald's AA is going to be All-Big East (as we are seeing).

As it is now, I feel for the main core of 4-5 that we have. They are great kids, and there must be enormous pressure on them.

As a fan base, we need to be realistic about our program. If you want to root for a team that can bring McDonald's all americans off the bench every year, start following Duke or UNC. JTIII is doing what he can, but big time recruits are not lining up to come off our bench (see transfers of Macklin and Rivers). We have two 4 star guys coming off the bench right now. That's as good as it's probably going to get. It's just too early in the year to make any real judgments about our team other than the D seems improved, while the O is a work in progress. JTIII has put the talent in place to compete with the best teams on a national stage year in and year out. At a school with the limitations of Georgetown, I'm not sure what more you can ask for.

[Deleted]

Hi capcenter Hoya.

You are dead correct. We are probably going to be getting 4 star players with a rare 5 star player thrown in. GU has just too many limitations to get a slew of 5 star players. It is just too early to make decisions about this team. I actually have a good feeling about them, especially if the 3 point shooting comes around.

[cnyhoya]

Good points all.

I too am happy with what we have, and do not expect 5 star players.

My point was simply that we need to have MORE 4 star players. I am disappointed with our lack of depth, as stated above.

[SFHoya99]

Let's give Hollis and Henry a few more games before we write them off.

[hoyarooter]

It's not clear how much he would have contributed this year, if at all, but Dash Riley did leave us holding the bag from a recruiting standpoint last year.

[OldHoyafan]

Nov 23, 2009 10:35:17 GMT -5 strummer8526 said:

I agree that there might be some depth concerns, yes. But I hardly see this as a "drop off" from the bench in our most successful season. In '06–'07, we had our starting 5, Pat, Vern, Rivers, Tyler...

And now, off the bench were have Sims, Hollis, Vee, Nikita.

Tyler was a "team" kinda guy, but not part of our in-game talent pool.

Vern was a huge step down from Roy every time he touched the floor. He had a good game against Davidson and we lost. I don't think Vaughn is a huge drop from Vern. In fact, I think by the middle of the season, he will be better than '06–'07 Vern.

Rivers was an offensive black hole. Some will disagree, but I think Clark can play the JR defensive role. So maybe we're missing the extra body and Clark might get a little more tired, but I think the net talent of Sapp + Rivers is there in Clark.

So really, what we're looking at is Sims versus Pat. And I think that is our talent drop. But it's not an insurmountable one.

Honestly, I don't feel bad for Greg and Chris in terms of their being thrown out on the court with too much pressure and not enough talent on the bench. I think our biggest drops in talent are Wallace and Jeff --> Chris and Greg. So it's not like Chris and Greg are victims here. They're actually the biggest talent drop-offs, in my opinion (except Sims, as compared to Pat). That being said, they are enormously talented and can probably get better. How we end up this season will depend on those two the same as it depended on Wallace and Jeff.

I think this is a very good assessment of where we are vs 2-3 years ago. The Sims vs Pat, Jr. drop off is the most pronounced. Pat was a spark off the bench, not for his scoring, but for his intensity, rebounding passing and defense. Some of the prettiest backdoor passes were made by Pat,Jr. Sims right now is not delivering in a meaningful way in any one of these catagories. Hopefully it will come. Release the beast! Another major drop is the difference in 3pt accuracy from Wallace to Wright. I always thought that Chris' ability to score on drives to the hoop would even out his lack of Wallace's 3pt accuracy, but now I think the Princeton offense needs at least one deadly accurate 3pt shooter in order to give the big guys enough space inside to make their one-on-one moves. Green and Hibbert enjoyed that luxury, so far Monroe has not had that space.
Before I get all the "why are you hating on Chris", I am not. He is a very good guard with a skill set to get to the basket when he wants to. He is also a decent 3pt shooter as well, just not a deadly accurate one like Wallace, and I think this offense needs one. The recruiting posts last year had me thinking Hollis was the answer to this problem. The late signing of Sanford also gave rise to the hope that he may be the one. Lets hope one of them developes into that sharpshooter. Nikita got playing time last year obviously because he was hitting the 3pt shot in practice with the accuracy this offense needed. Unfortunately he could not bring that accuracy to his game time play.

[cnyhoya]

It is worth noting how fortunate we were to have Jon Wallace for 4 years!

[jerseyhoya34]

Nov 23, 2009 14:07:53 GMT -5 cnyhoya said:

It is worth noting how fortunate we were to have Jon Wallace for 4 years!

I disagree. He was not nearly athletic enough for the system.

[mrsixer123]

My thoughts of the first 3 games are:

1. Nothing has improved on offense!!! The players continue to look lost and frustrated

2. Greg continues to play as if losing does not bother him. Instead, he plays as if the games don't matter. If he gets the rebound; cool, if not, oh well! I thought this would change over the summer, it did not

3. We continue to play at a tempo as if our team is loaded with average, slow footed players. We continue to try and shorten the game by milking the clock as if we do not have very talented players!!

The women's team beat purdue because they took the game to them!!! In direct contrast, we play as if we are trying not to lose instead of attacking teams with our talent.

4. We will be in the NIT yet again if III continues to try and force his system on the CURRENT group players!!!!! And we know what happens once players get fed up with this offense.................

[ivotedforkodos]

Nov 23, 2009 13:47:15 GMT -5 OldHoyafan said:

Nov 23, 2009 10:35:17 GMT -5 strummer8526 said:

Honestly, I don't feel bad for Greg and Chris in terms of their being thrown out on the court with too much pressure and not enough talent on the bench. I think our biggest drops in talent are Wallace and Jeff --> Chris and Greg.

I always thought that Chris' ability to score on drives to the hoop would even out his lack of Wallace's 3pt accuracy, but now I think the Princeton offense needs at least one deadly accurate 3pt shooter in order to give the big guys enough space inside to make their one-on-one moves. Green and Hibbert enjoyed that luxury, so far Monroe has not had that space.

...(Chris) is also a decent 3pt shooter as well, just not a deadly accurate one like Wallace, and I think this offense needs one.

I really couldn't agree with these points more. Aside from P.Ew, JTIII teams on the hilltop have really never relied on strong bench contributions, and right now Wright and Monroe are certainly not looking as effective as their predecessors did.

Wright is clearly more athletic than Wallace was, but more accuracy outside would probably do more for this team than athleticism right now; Wright just doesn't have the shot selection to even capitalize on what accuracy he does have from out there. Hopefully Hollis can develop into that Jon Wallace/Darrell Owens type shooter in our offense, at which point Wright's drives will probably be more valuable due to the space it creates inside.

[sleepy]

I think we as fans just need to be more patient overall. Teams and players aren't just created out of thin area. They take time to develop. People seem to have some sort of revisionist attitude about that 2008 class as if they came in the players they left. Go back and read threads from November 2006, the complaints about that team are almost identicle to the ones right now. The November 2006 version of Ewing Jr was night and day different compared to the March 2007 version.
We don't need new 4 or 5 star players to replace the ones we have now. We need the ones we have now to work hard, get better, and become a good team. We seem to have players that worked hard, lets give them a chance to show it on the court before we complain about lack of talent and how we are doomed to be no better than we are now because we don't have the starting 5 of a Mcdonalds all american team on the bench.
2007 team was greater than the sum of its parts, remember that. That team beat teams that had more talent and better players and more depth. Theres more to being a great team than having great players. If these players can come together as a team the way that one and past JTIII teams have done, I have no doubt in my mind we will be pretty good this year.

[SFHoya99]

Nov 23, 2009 15:00:09 GMT -5 sleepy said:

I think we as fans just need to be more patient overall. Teams and players aren't just created out of thin area. They take time to develop. People seem to have some sort of revisionist attitude about that 2008 class as if they came in the players they left. Go back and read threads from November 2006, the complaints about that team are almost identicle to the ones right now. The November 2006 version of Ewing Jr was night and day different compared to the March 2007 version.
We don't need new 4 or 5 star players to replace the ones we have now. We need the ones we have now to work hard, get better, and become a good team. We seem to have players that worked hard, lets give them a chance to show it on the court before we complain about lack of talent and how we are doomed to be no better than we are now because we don't have the starting 5 of a Mcdonalds all american team on the bench.
2007 team was greater than the sum of its parts, remember that. That team beat teams that had more talent and better players and more depth. Theres more to being a great team than having great players. If these players can come together as a team the way that one and past JTIII teams have done, I have no doubt in my mind we will be pretty good this year.

Clap... Clap... Clap....


Well, except I'd like to see Greg show more emotion visibly after a play. I don't think it will make any difference, but he should realize that he's here solely to make Mr. Sixer comfortable with his facial expressions and mannerisms.