Season Expectations and System Issues

[bhoyas]

On the positive side a win is win, ugly, but a win. So kudos to our team today for the W against Temple. On the realistic side, we as hoya faithfuls, need to understand that our team will probably be a "good" one throughout the season, but not a "great" one, with lots of ups and downs due to the obvious reasons:

- We have a short (no depth) 7-man rotation which includes a Freshman who needs a lot of work in Hollis; a young C/F in Henry who is still refining & developing his basketball skills; a starting C/PF in Vaughn who will be null in offense (although he did show some improvement today rebounding) and a 3-guard rotation in Freeman, Clark and Wright which lacks a natural point guard, as they are all more comfortable playing as shooting guards.

- Greg Monroe continues to play in the perimeter and the team is not forcing him to play strong inside, obtain position and demand the ball.

- Lack of a leader who can take charge over a ball game with toughness. (Let's see if Greg accepts this role....)

- We do not have the "needed" players to run Coach JT3 system, which requires dead-eye shooters with a stable PG who could not only shoot from the outside, but that could create for the rest of the teammates. The lack of personnel necessary to run this system hinders current players from playing up to their potential, as they don't feel comfortable in their role and consequently play as robots. This is evidenced in the lack of flow that our offense has enjoyed during the last 2 years. This half-court system might not only limit our current talented players, but could also keep young top-rank recruits from wanting to play for the Hilltop, as they might not be allowed to play the up-tempo style of basketball that most enjoy to play.

Hopefully, some adjustments can be made and the team along with Coach JT3 can give us some pleasant surprises, but just in case we must level our expectations....

[jerseyhoya34]

The offense can adapt with this personnel - we saw this with the drive and kick stuff that Wright brought in the BET of 2008. What we need to see more of is players figuring out how the offense can be adapted in this way. What prevents drive and kick work now to give Austin space on his shot? What prevents high-low stuff with Greg and Henry?

The problem that I see is that there is too much overthinking. Players think that the way you practice is the only way to run the thing when JT3 is just trying to provide the tools to learn how to react and apply on the court. Perhaps some of that is a function of game plan and knowing which strategies are likely to succeed, but teams/players make adjustments all the time, so why not us?

[RDF]

Nov 17, 2009 22:08:40 GMT -5 @jerseyhoya34 said:

The offense can adapt with this personnel - we saw this with the drive and kick stuff that Wright brought in the BET of 2008. What we need to see more of is players figuring out how the offense can be adapted in this way. What prevents drive and kick work now to give Austin space on his shot? What prevents high-low stuff with Greg and Henry?

The problem that I see is that there is too much overthinking. Players think that the way you practice is the only way to run the thing when JT3 is just trying to provide the tools to learn how to react and apply on the court. Perhaps some of that is a function of game plan and knowing which strategies are likely to succeed, but teams/players make adjustments all the time, so why not us?

The problem is you cannot run this offense without a low post threat. In Hibbert/Green you had two and even PE JR could post someone and Macklin was 100 times the post player that anyone on this team not named Monroe---only going to his left---are. That makes it contested shots for outside shooters and limits your cuts to hoop because there is nobody outside of Monroe on left block you have to double on block. Vaughn has no chance of making a shot on block and Henry always faces up--so defense know what is coming.

This is why you have to adapt your offense to the personnel. It's not trashing/bashing the Princeton set--it's just being realistic as to what your personnel can/cannot do and this group is not very good at protecting the ball, they are not a great shooting group, and they have zero post presence. I thought the most disappointing aspect of today's game was seeing Monroe look exactly the same as a post player-he's got no right hand whatsoever and that is sad--for him and team. He's got to do that before having any thought of being a legitimate NBA player.

[HOYAPLAYA]

I'll never understand how after two games of the season that so many fans have it figured out already. I'm so glad they don't had out trophies and post season awards in mid-November. You would think we were the only ranked team that hasn't played a stinker. Was it a good performance? No. Did we just beat a team that is a potential tournament team while not having a good performance? Yes. Do I have any idea of how good/bad this team is going to be this year? Not a freaking clue and I bet I'm not alone.

[bigelephant]

We won an ugly, ugly game. The mark of a very good team is that they win these kind of things. It is way too early to start forming permanent judgments. A lot of people forget that Temple is a very respectable team and no pushover. We stank - I'll give you that - but we did pull it out and a W is a W at season's end. It will give them confidence in closing but plenty of stuff to work on.

[calhoya]

Totally agree with RDF. The coach recruited these kids and knows their abilities. Work with their strengths and adapt the system. Adapt the system!!! Elements of the Princeton offense will work well with this group, but having watched almost every televised game over two years, it is apparent that the strengths of this group are not the same as the Final Four team.

[rosslynhoya]

The only "system issue" that stands out to me is the lack of movement by players who don't have the ball. You can rag on Chris Wright et al., for trying to force really ugly passes, but no matter how athletic the team is, their talent is wasted when guys just stand around like lumps (for long stretches anyway). It's even more ridiculous to blame "the system" for the lack of offensive fire.

On the other hand, Fran Dunphy's players executed a rather Princeton-like system against superior talent pretty well last night, and but for terrible shooting, they'd have earned a W for it.

[Boz]

Nov 18, 2009 1:12:51 GMT -5 HOYAPLAYA said:

I'll never understand how after two games of the season that so many fans have it figured out already. I'm so glad they don't had out trophies and post season awards in mid-November. You would think we were the only ranked team that hasn't played a stinker. Was it a good performance? No. Did we just beat a team that is a potential tournament team while not having a good performance? Yes. Do I have any idea of how good/bad this team is going to be this year? Not a freaking clue and I bet I'm not alone.

Kansas has just announced that it is forfeiting the rest of its season, as it is completely unrealistic for them to think they can compete and win after barely breaking 50 points last night.

[turbohoya]

I am on board with Rosslyn... feels to me we are not moving with a sense of urgency, and when we do we get lay-ups and wide open 3's...

[lichoya68]

we will be fine yes WE WILL BE FINE go hoyas go henry get much more meaner and quicker on the d you can do MUCH better than that and we NEED A MEAN HENRY thats for sure rest of pieces doing aok in my book henry got blown by like three times alsmot in a row to lead temples comeback from twelve down I LOVE HENRY AND HE CAN BE MEAN ASK MR. ALLEN FROM VA. TECH AND BEASLEY AND EVEN JEFF HENRYJUSTBEVERYVERYVERYFREAKINGMEANERYESESPECIALLYONDEFENSE YUP THATS THE KEY TO GLORY GO HOHYAS

[NCHoya]

After 2 games it is impossible to draw conclusions. However, things that give me pause is CW's play down the stretch and how he dominated the ball so much with not much to show for it.

The second is how lost Henry Sims looked yesterday. If you noticed, when Sims was in the game, TU played its best offense. Sims added nothing on either end and looked very tentative. I am hoping he will come along as he gets time against the weaker teams coming up, but he was the biggest outlier that I saw yesterday.

[the_way]

I think there may be problem that is even bigger than the system.

Where is the life to this team? The spirit?

We seem like a bunch of individuals playing basketball out there. We don't feel like a team, imo. Maybe that will take care of itself in time.

As I mentioned in another post, who is the leader or leaders on this team?

also, does the personnel blend with one another well enough to come up with any kind of offense. we seem to have an extreme of either specialists/role players who are limited scorers vs. scorers, and not much in between.

Add to the fact we have very short bench.

It will be interesting how things turn out this year.

[thehandicapper]

Nov 18, 2009 10:19:10 GMT -5 the_way said:

I think there may be problem that is even bigger than the system.

Where is the life to this team? The spirit?

We seem like a bunch of individuals playing basketball out there. We don't feel like a team, imo. Maybe that will take care of itself in time.

As I mentioned in another post, who is the leader or leaders on this team?

also, does the personnel blend with one another well enough to come up with any kind of offense. we seem to have an extreme of either specialists/role players who are limited scorers vs. scorers, and not much in between.

Add to the fact we have very short bench.

It will be interesting how things turn out this year.

Don't question this team's life and spirit. Every single one of them wanted to win more than anyone of us fans. The leaders on this team are the 4 best players, Wright, Clark, Free, and Monroe. You can question the system, the lack of recruiting (which is why we have a 7 man rotation), the plays coming out of timeouts, etc, but don't start throwing 19-21 y/o kids under the bus saying they have a lack of heart.

[theexorcist]

Nov 18, 2009 10:19:10 GMT -5 the_way said:

I think there may be problem that is even bigger than the system.

Where is the life to this team? The spirit?

We seem like a bunch of individuals playing basketball out there. We don't feel like a team, imo. Maybe that will take care of itself in time.

As I mentioned in another post, who is the leader or leaders on this team?

also, does the personnel blend with one another well enough to come up with any kind of offense. we seem to have an extreme of either specialists/role players who are limited scorers vs. scorers, and not much in between.

Add to the fact we have very short bench.

It will be interesting how things turn out this year.

To pile on, this team has a clear leader - Monroe. When the clock was ticking down for the last possession, Monroe got the ball. Last year, there was a big issue - is it Wright's team, or Summers', or Monroe's. This year has clarified things markedly.

[tashoya]

Nov 18, 2009 1:12:51 GMT -5 HOYAPLAYA said:

I'll never understand how after two games of the season that so many fans have it figured out already. I'm so glad they don't had out trophies and post season awards in mid-November. You would think we were the only ranked team that hasn't played a stinker. Was it a good performance? No. Did we just beat a team that is a potential tournament team while not having a good performance? Yes. Do I have any idea of how good/bad this team is going to be this year? Not a freaking clue and I bet I'm not alone.

I could not possibly agree more. Thanks for that.

[the_way]

getting the ball and being a top scorer is different than being a leader.

if that wasn't the case, Iverson would have been the greatest leader in Georgetown history.

[FrazierFanatic]

Nov 18, 2009 11:08:04 GMT -5 thehandicapper said:

Nov 18, 2009 10:19:10 GMT -5 the_way said:

I think there may be problem that is even bigger than the system.

Where is the life to this team? The spirit?

We seem like a bunch of individuals playing basketball out there. We don't feel like a team, imo. Maybe that will take care of itself in time.

As I mentioned in another post, who is the leader or leaders on this team?

also, does the personnel blend with one another well enough to come up with any kind of offense. we seem to have an extreme of either specialists/role players who are limited scorers vs. scorers, and not much in between.

Add to the fact we have very short bench.

It will be interesting how things turn out this year.

Don't question this team's life and spirit. Every single one of them wanted to win more than anyone of us fans. The leaders on this team are the 4 best players, Wright, Clark, Free, and Monroe. You can question the system, the lack of recruiting (which is why we have a 7 man rotation), the plays coming out of timeouts, etc, but don't start throwing 19-21 y/o kids under the bus saying they have a lack of heart.

I did not take Way's comments to refer to a lack of "heart" at all - but there is a difference between "heart" and "fire" or "spirit". I get exactly what Way is saying, at times this team the last year plus looks like it is just running through an October practice. It is the kind of intangible that Patrick Jr. used to bring, and that maybe Hollis can add. Maybe it is a reflection of the system, or of JTIII's personna, but there is an extra level of intensity we need to find, on both ends of the floor. That said, obviously it is far too early to even suggest that we can't develop it, and hopefully it will come with more experience playing together

[Churchwell]

Wow. As a loooonnnggggg-time lurker who almost never posts, I have to say i am surprised. It's taken just one stinker of a game - the second of the season at that - for all the boo-birds, negative nellies and couch potato coaches to dissect everything that is wrong with this team and pretty much write the team and/or the system and/or recruiting completely off.

And to think, I usually wait until February before I stop reading this board.

Seriously. Let's all just take a deep breath and wait to pass judgment. There are three perfect times to do it when it actually makes sense:

1) Immediately following the Washington game on December 12. We will have just played 2 VERY good teams in Butler and UW and we'll know a lot more about what this group is capable of.

2) On January 9, right after we play UCONN. We will have just finished playing a mixed bag of average teams and faced a major test by a team that ought to be in the Sweet 16. We'll see how much they've grown from Butler/UW.

3) January 30. That's when Duke comes to town. We will have just finished a stretch that includes Nova, Pitt and Syracuse. This team will pretty much be who we think they are at that point in the season.

I remember the Hoyas getting WAXED by Arkansas in the first game of the 1994-95 season - looking unbelievably inept - and we made it to the Sweet 16 that year. Heck, in 2005-6 we lost our home opener to Vandy by stinking up the joint in the 2nd half and we all know how that season turned out. Illinois took us apart as well a couple weeks later. Let's not forget ODU the following year. At home. In McDonough. Or Oregon after that. We don't know if this year is a reprise of 2008-9 yet, but we will soon enough.

[SFHoya99]

I don't mind them looking like they are running through a practice -- Jeff, Roy and Jon used to do that and win.

What I hate seeing is the periods of no offensive movement, lazy threes because they don't immediately see a better shot and slow rotations on D.

[RDF]

Nov 18, 2009 12:13:51 GMT -5 Churchwell said:

Wow. As a loooonnnggggg-time lurker who almost never posts, I have to say i am surprised. It's taken just one stinker of a game - the second of the season at that - for all the boo-birds, negative nellies and couch potato coaches to dissect everything that is wrong with this team and pretty much write the team and/or the system and/or recruiting completely off.

And to think, I usually wait until February before I stop reading this board.

Seriously. Let's all just take a deep breath and wait to pass judgment. There are three perfect times to do it when it actually makes sense:

1) Immediately following the Washington game on December 12. We will have just played 2 VERY good teams in Butler and UW and we'll know a lot more about what this group is capable of.

2) On January 9, right after we play UCONN. We will have just finished playing a mixed bag of average teams and faced a major test by a team that ought to be in the Sweet 16. We'll see how much they've grown from Butler/UW.

3) January 30. That's when Duke comes to town. We will have just finished a stretch that includes Nova, Pitt and Syracuse. This team will pretty much be who we think they are at that point in the season.

I remember the Hoyas getting WAXED by Arkansas in the first game of the 1994-95 season - looking unbelievably inept - and we made it to the Sweet 16 that year. Heck, in 2005-6 we lost our home opener to Vandy by stinking up the joint in the 2nd half and we all know how that season turned out. Illinois took us apart as well a couple weeks later. Let's not forget ODU the following year. At home. In McDonough. Or Oregon after that. We don't know if this year is a reprise of 2008-9 yet, but we will soon enough.

Let me ask you this Churchwell, after last year why in the hell are you overlooking the ST. JOHN'S game? I mean this team was beaten 2 times by SJU and struggled against physical teams--no matter the record.

My problem with people who criticize the fans who actually want to talk about the team in a constructive way is that they never offer anything other then "wait for them--it's only two games". What the hell are we waiting for? Just a simple question that requires a simple answer. What is it about the the game yesterday where you saw offensive improvement. Think we all agree effort, team defense, and team rebounding were VASTLY IMPROVED. Offensively-what looked good?

I'd punch anyone in the face who said I'm not a loyal, diehard Georgetown fan. I'd also tell those who say that to tell me where I'm wrong?? It's one thing to miss shots--and as a fan you know that happens in games. My problem was NOT that. It was the concept of this team's offensive approach and seeing how/if it can improve. When you have a player who is a tremendously talented guy in Greg Monroe look as if he's not put one minute in the offseason into working on his offhand--that is disturbing a big warning sign that his impact on offense won't be more then it was last season. He's a talented/great player-but to not be able to use his righthand? What did he do all offseason.

I take issue with strength/conditioning program at Georgetown as well. Since Hibbert was a FR--I'm a big advocate of seeing bigs in the program work on lower body/core strength. Monroe looked like a true FR in his legs and Vaughn/Sims are bumped around easily as well. Roy never worked on that until getting to NBA and for those who have seen him--he's a completely different player in terms of running/keeping strong center of gravity. Now his skill/talent as an offensive player and pure size made him effective without that--but he was hurt by people moving him out from underneath--using their legs/leaning on him. Monroe, Vaughn, and Sims are same. Greg is only guy on team to have post up game--but it's strictily using his Left. He can't go right at all. It's one thing if he just missed or looked good and didn't work--he looked awful yesterday. So time will cure that? I am not naive enough to buy that.

If you look at what has worked/what hasn't with III's offensive approach:

1. Big frontline
2. Ability to interchange--which means guys could post and face
3. Shooters outside
4. Guys moving the ball and moving withOUT the ball

Last and This Year's Personnel:

1. Small Frontline--smaller lineup
2. All Face Up Guys--no low post threats minus Greg--who is limited to going left
3. Poor Shooting due to defenses daring Hoyas to score in paint
4. Stagnant/lack of movement off the ball and ball sticks/over dribbling

Now you can be more effective offensively--it just means going away from the same approach as what you used with bigger and far more versatile frontline. Hoyas are recruiting or trying to recruit to do that--but this year's team can't get recruits to help--they have to use what they have--so that means tweaking it or hoping Greg magically improves his weakhand during the season--which in all honesty is a lot to ask--as most of your improvement comes in offseason as an individual player regarding skill set.

Just want to know how this is considered being "negative" instead of being observant and honest?

Hope Hoyas prove me wrong and everyone erupts into a cohesive offensive machine--but watching the parts on the court and projecting how they'll develop into the preferred offensive approach just didn't mesh.