thebin
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Post by thebin on Nov 12, 2009 15:13:21 GMT -5
Non sequitur. There have been numerous recent instances involving those who invoked Islam during acts of murder, attempted murder, or conspiracy to commit murder. Tiller is the only person within the past decade to commit a violent act in the name of anti-abortion. I guess the decade time frame frees you from acknowledging the Atlanta Olympic bombing, but whatever. My point is that when rooting out Islamic extremism, it's more productive to focus on the "extremism" part rather than the "Islamic". It's the absurdity of that "logic" that makes my blood boil. The problem with Islamic extremism is that it's not really a fringe element. Minority opinion? Possibly, maybe just barely minority. Maybe substantial minority (20%?) But....Fringe? Not a chance. You just are not paying attention if you can believe that "tiny fringe" line. You can pretend it is, but the world's 1 billion + muslims don't really agree with you, and that concerns me greatly. Any useful defintion of the term "radical islam" includes millions of people, not dozens or hundreds or even thousands. When we say "extremist Christians" we are talking about a very small and shrinking population that doesn't have generally speaking the will or desire to kill/convert millions of non-christians- they basically just want to be left alone. They are fighting a rear guard action and as absurd as I think many of their principles are as an atheist, they do not generally speaking threaten my existence at all. The number of Christians who want to murder an abortion doctor is indeed miniscule, a tiny handful of nuts. I should be more concerned with being hit by lightening. The number of Muslims who want all Jews in the world dead on the other hand is I think you would have to admit not nearly so tiny. Heads of state in major Islamic countries state this desire freely and often as a rather banal matter of state policy, less controversialy in fact than President Obama stating his desire for universal healthcare coverage in our country. Think about that. You may pretend that radical Islam and radical Presbyterianism are two sides of the same coin if you wish. Where I on the other hand would prefer to proceed with my head firmly out of my own ass.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2009 15:43:43 GMT -5
Wow...just wow.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Nov 12, 2009 16:35:55 GMT -5
I think thebin is on target. As a generality, Muslims believe the entire world should be Muslim because that's what they get from the Quran. From the Quran they also believe that anyone who is not a Muslim is an infidel. A large percent of Muslims are not willing to take up arms to kill these infidels but many (many millions?) are happy to have others do this for them because passages in the Quran encourage it.
In a related matter, Muslims are perfectly happy converting infidels through peaceful means. This is evident in Europe that will, in the lives of many on this board, become mostly Muslim. When countries such as France and Italy reach the point where they are near-majority Muslim they will expect to rule those countries and fast introduce Muslim theocracies there. If they cannot achieve this rule peacefully they will resort to force. As in other Muslim theocracies, other religions will be outlawed.
You may scoff at these ideas but, if so, you are merely putting your heads in the sand (or other places).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2009 16:42:23 GMT -5
Wow again!
You both realize that there are 1.57 BILLION Muslims in the world, right?
Sweeping generalizations are awesome.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Nov 12, 2009 16:44:24 GMT -5
I really love how both bin and ed are apparently experts on the Muslim world, so much so that they know what all Muslims are really thinking and what their religion really means. This is the assertive ignorance that is ruining this country.
Also, bin, I'm sorry genocidal fantasy gives you a hard on. You should look into Playboy or something.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Nov 12, 2009 17:01:16 GMT -5
Wow again! You both realize that there are 1.57 BILLION Muslims in the world, right? Sweeping generalizations are awesome. You bet your ass I know there are 1.57 billion of them (and growing), that sort of speaks to the problem. You realize that a "tiny portion" or "extreme element" of 1.57 million people could easily be 200-300 million people right? You see how that might become a bit more worrisome than the few hundred or even thousand anti-abortion radicals? Then there is the theological problem that Islam is a young religion that hasn't had it's reformation yet. Crudely speaking, the mean Muslim belief about religion is a hell of a lot more self-assertive and aggressive than the mean Christian, Jewish or Hindu belief. That I have to even point this out is absurd. I see you come from the school of politeness over ugly facts.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Nov 12, 2009 17:06:38 GMT -5
I really love how both bin and ed are apparently experts on the Muslim world, so much so that they know what all Muslims are really thinking and what their religion really means. This is the assertive ignorance that is ruining this country. Also, bin, I'm sorry genocidal fantasy gives you a hard on. You should look into Playboy or something. I don't even know what those two non-sensical statements (fantasy and Playboy) mean..... You act as though it is difficult to discern what Muslims want. I don't know why. Just try listening to them for once. They are not whispering it either, they are shouting it at you... They will tell you exactly what they think of Jews and infidels and homosexuals and loose women. TAKE THEM FOR THEIR WORD AND STOP PROJECTING YOUR WESTERN VALUES ONTO THEM. Sure, many of them are great people, probably even MOST of them....but if a "tiny" percentage of them believe the disgusting filth that is spouted DAILY by the state (and state media) then how "fringe" are those beliefs? When "extreme" elements write the newspaper headlines and lead the daily prayers at the biggest mosques....well if it walks like a duck..... You don't exactly have to read between the lines to find out what "they" believe. They are willing to tell you. You just are not willing to believe them because it's uncomfortable for you as it clashes with your well-meaning-but-childish worldview. In almost ALL of these countries being homosexual is a CRIME, in several it is a crime punishible BY DEATH. What does that tell you?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Nov 12, 2009 17:12:38 GMT -5
You guys are overreacting a bit. Yes, it's a generalization, but it's not without some basis.
For instance, in some Muslim countries, there is actually MAJORITY support for suicide bombing in defense of Islam...and not just in Iraq.
Even in countries where support of such actions has declined, it's still a far greater percentage than you would expect from those who promote "a religion of peace." In Pakistan, for instance, it's "down" to 46% saying that such actions are never justified, but that still means a pretty large percentage of the people are perfectly OK with people blowing up other people in some instances or in rare instances.
In non-Muslim countries Judaism is generally viewed favorably by large majorities of the population, including Muslims. In Muslim nations? Uhhh, not so much. Like, the HIGHEST favorability percentage is in the teens. It's not not completely unfounded that Muslims in those nations would be completely fine with their leaders talking about the destruction of Israel because, well, they ARE.
Generalizations are always going to outrage people. In this instance, however, I would go so far as to say that if we look at Muslims who live in Muslim nations, these generalizations are really not all that far off based on polling data. If you want to differentiate between Muslims living in Muslim nations and those living in Western or non-Muslim nations, then yes, I think there is a pretty big difference there as to what "the majority of Muslims" believe.
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hoyaalf
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Post by hoyaalf on Nov 13, 2009 12:59:20 GMT -5
While it is true that those who use a broad brush are likely to bespatter themselves with the same color as they paint their subject, it is also true that the 'Islamic world' seems to function through entirely different rule sets than other religions. Examples upon request.
These Islamic rule sets seem in large part to be directed toward combining religion and government whereas Christianity has been moving in the other direction for some time.
Can anyone tell me if Islam has 'officially' given up conversion by the sword?
And if they have, who is charge to say so anyway? No hierarchy there, not even something like The World Council of Churches.
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hoyaalf
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Post by hoyaalf on Nov 13, 2009 13:22:17 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2009 14:22:02 GMT -5
Generalizations are always going to outrage people. In this instance, however, I would go so far as to say that if we look at Muslims who live in Muslim nations, these generalizations are really not all that far off based on polling data. If you want to differentiate between Muslims living in Muslim nations and those living in Western or non-Muslim nations, then yes, I think there is a pretty big difference there as to what "the majority of Muslims" believe. And that's exactly my point. Most people don't think critically enough to differentiate, so they'll decide that all Muslims must want to suicide-bomb everyone, and judge them accordingly. Even if thebin's entirely unscientific estimate of 200-300 million is correct (and could you ever really quantify that?), that leaves solid 1.3 billion Muslims who don't fall into that category and don't deserve to be treated that way. But hey, why think critically when it's easier to demonize a fifth of the world's population? And hoyaalf, of you think that religion and government don't overlap in Christian circles, you haven't been paying attention...there are plenty of people who LOVE to impose their religion into government. easyed himself has noted that he opposes legalizing gay marriage because the Bible says it's wrong. That's a far cry from the creation of a theocracy, but let's not act like our hands are clean on the church/state separation front. But, whatever...if the Mayan calendar and blockbuster movies have taught me anything, it's that we're all going to be toast in 2012 anyway. So what? So let's dance!
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Nov 13, 2009 14:48:37 GMT -5
Cam,
Easyed says he opposes legalizing gay marriage PARTLY because the Bible says it' wrong. But easyed also says he proposes outlawing gay marriage through the democratic process, not using a gun. It's also amazing that, in the example, you concentrate on not treating the 1.2 billion in a respectful way even if it means ignoring the dangers to us from the 200-300 million.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Nov 13, 2009 15:30:56 GMT -5
While it is true that those who use a broad brush are likely to bespatter themselves with the same color as they paint their subject, it is also true that the 'Islamic world' seems to function through entirely different rule sets than other religions. Examples upon request. These Islamic rule sets seem in large part to be directed toward combining religion and government whereas Christianity has been moving in the other direction for some time. Can anyone tell me if Islam has 'officially' given up conversion by the sword? And if they have, who is charge to say so anyway? No hierarchy there, not even something like The World Council of Churches. Exactly, to view Islam as some monolith is wildly ignorant, and I why comparing Islam to Presbyterianism is like comparing apples to oranges. There's the main Sunni/Shia split, for one, plus the Sufi mystical tradition. If you're going to single out a sect for opprobrium, you should single out Wahhabism. Everyone realizes that we've been sworn to defend a Muslim country for over 50 years now right? Bin & Ed, do you want us out of NATO?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Nov 13, 2009 15:42:59 GMT -5
"that leaves solid 1.3 billion Muslims who don't fall into that category and don't deserve to be treated that way."
There is the difference between us. I'm far more concerned with preventing the annihilation (whether slowly or in a flash/mushroom cloud) of western Liberalism than I of hurting the feelings of people (who don't give a damn what we say anyway) who are themselves at the greatest risk from the Islamic fundamentalists. Do the people of Iran (most of whom are more secular than you know) for example a favour and stop coddling (indirectly) their fundamentalist mid evil oppressors by pretending that Islam has NOTHING to do with the problem. Sure, it's just "extremism" that's the problem. That sort of sounds like declaring a war on terror no?
The world isn't an American elementary school social sciences class. Don't worry about hurting people's feelings too much. Let's all just rather call things as they so plainly are. It sickens me to see Western secular liberals (as I consider myself) laying down one-way "respect" that only encourages our enemies to believe we are too weak to fight for our principles. Maybe they are right.
Why would I want the US out of NATO? I assume in your string of hair splittings you think that the existence of Turkey proves some sort of a point. More likely you just wanted the chance to show you know 3 or 4 things about Islam and are thus correct. Bravo.
Every islamic nation should emulate the Turks. Turkey is the successful (relatively) place it is because Kemel Ataturk made sure to SECULARIZE the nation like no other Islamic nation has been. You can almost say the same for Albania. Its easy for you to try to lump ed and myself together but it's not really fair to Ed or myself. My problem with Islam is that it's the only major religion left that takes itself very seriously as a universal truth. That's what makes it dangerous. As dangerous as pre-Reformation Christianity was to the world. You mistake me if you think I am anti-Islamic. I'm very much against anyone who thinks they for a second can decide things for other people because of a truth they claim to know through a non-existent god. Which is why I violently reject any policy that stems even partially from biblical rationale.
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Nov 13, 2009 15:43:48 GMT -5
Everyone realizes that we've been sworn to defend a Muslim country for over 50 years now right? Bin & Ed, do you want us out of NATO? The last I checked, Turkey was a republic, albeit one populated by Muslims.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Nov 13, 2009 15:59:45 GMT -5
Everyone realizes that we've been sworn to defend a Muslim country for over 50 years now right? Bin & Ed, do you want us out of NATO? The last I checked, Turkey was a republic, albeit one populated by Muslims. I'm sorry, did someone from the Muslims-are-evil crowd carve out a republican exception? You realize the current ruling party is Islam-based, right? Spooky! Bin, you Manichean ramblings are becoming tired. We get it, the only worthwhile life is one on the ramparts against some existential enemy. Real life is like Lord of the Rings.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Nov 13, 2009 16:04:17 GMT -5
If you knew anything about Turkey you would know the very raison d' etre of the modern Turkish state is it's strict secular nature. Which is not just an exception, it's proves the point exactly. You are Lenin's idea of the Useful Idiot incarnate.
I really shouldn't even indulge this silly thought though as who the US is allied with politically just doesn't have jack chit to do with our discussion. I know you thought it was very clever though. We're closely allied with the Egyptian state too, and it's population is a powderkeg full of horrible anti-semitism, anti-Americanism, homophobia, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2009 16:24:15 GMT -5
Cam, Easyed says he opposes legalizing gay marriage PARTLY because the Bible says it' wrong. But easyed also says he proposes outlawing gay marriage through the democratic process, not using a gun. It's also amazing that, in the example, you concentrate on not treating the 1.2 billion in a respectful way even if it means ignoring the dangers to us from the 200-300 million. Whether partly or totally, you do believe that your religious beliefs should influence public policy. That's simply the point I made. The gay marriage debate (and abortion debate) make it very clear that religion and politics are far from separate in the US. Where did I say we should ignore the dangers? We can't and we won't. That's silly. But it's even sillier to treat a fifth of the world's population as potential terrorists just because of their religion. I guess I shouldn't walk past my Muslim colleague's office on my way out the door today. Even if she doesn't do anything to me today, she's probably an infiltrator...sitting there, waiting for my way of life to collapse so she and her friends and family can create the pure Islamic world that thebin is so frightened of. Give me a break... Here's a close-to-home example for you: In the past 6 weeks, there have been 5 anti-gay incidents on or near Georgetown's campus. By your logic, anyone who is gay should assume that all Georgetown students are out to get them. Is that a fair assumption? I know you would bristle at the notion of anyone, anywhere making assumptions about you, or starting a sentence with "All Catholics think..." or "All Georgetown alumni think..."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2009 16:56:10 GMT -5
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Nov 13, 2009 17:00:01 GMT -5
Here's a close-to-home example for you: In the past 6 weeks, there have been 5 anti-gay incidents on or near Georgetown's campus. By your logic, anyone who is gay should assume that all Georgetown students are out to get them. Is that a fair assumption? That's an excellent analogy. If Georgetown had a single code-of-conduct that strongly recommended the regularly scheduled beating of queer students and that failure to take part in said beatings would result in your expulsion from the university, then I think perhaps a reasonable person might be able to draw a connection between Georgetown and the beating of queers, and that if you couldn't draw that connection, you'd probably be mocked gently on a message board somewhere.
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