FormerHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,262
|
Post by FormerHoya on Feb 15, 2005 13:29:10 GMT -5
Ok, I need some help here and from the title of this thread I think a lot of people might disagree with me here, but I am still trying to get some numbers. I am in an argument with some friends over who is better both as a Hoya and then in the NBA Patrick Ewing vs Allen Iverson. Now I know they play different positions, but just numbers wise I was wondering what people thought. I think hands down Ewing had the biggest impact of any player at Gtown and then he is one of the 50 Greatest NBA Players. I think Ewing meant as much to the knicks as Iverson has to Philly throughout his time there and I also think that Iversons stats are overrated as he shoots so many shots. Anyway if someone has some thoughts on this, please let me know. Strange you should mention this, my wife asked me this morning if AI was the best ever pro Hoya. My immediate reaction was to tell her no, the Ewing was better, but now that I think it over I'm not really sure... Any thoughts? Edit: Man am I close to being a starter. I'm so proud...
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 15, 2005 13:38:18 GMT -5
Ok, I need some help here and from the title of this thread I think a lot of people might disagree with me here, but I am still trying to get some numbers. I am in an argument with some friends over who is better both as a Hoya and then in the NBA Patrick Ewing vs Allen Iverson. Now I know they play different positions, but just numbers wise I was wondering what people thought. I think hands down Ewing had the biggest impact of any player at Gtown and then he is one of the 50 Greatest NBA Players. I think Ewing meant as much to the knicks as Iverson has to Philly throughout his time there and I also think that Iversons stats are overrated as he shoots so many shots. Anyway if someone has some thoughts on this, please let me know. My personal feeling is that it is very hard for a guard to match the impact of a center. Centers guard the entire team, guards defend one person. Centers are the primary rebounder (along with power forwards). Guards need to get the ball to the frontcourt, but almost any guard is competent at that at this level. Froncourt players are simply more likely to shoot a higher % and to be fouled. As an aside, Allen may not shoot a high %, but he goes to the FT line so darn much that his effective FG% is very good for a guard that shoots as much as he does. Iverson: 1.05 PPS despite 42% shooting God's Gift to Basketball '02-'03: 1.11 PPS God's Gift to Basketball '04-'05: 1.08 PPS
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,304
|
Post by Cambridge on Feb 15, 2005 14:11:31 GMT -5
Let me start by saying that as a Hoya, Ewing had much much more impact on the university than AI -- hands down. There is no question on that. I won't even get into that argument. However, as a neat statistical analysis I decided to look into the numbers.
Obviously, the initial problem in comparison is that AI only stayed for two years as opposed to Pat's four. In fairness, Pat probably wouldn't have stayed at GU for four years...if attending Georgetown at all, had the NBA been as open to high schoolers and underclassmen as it is today. With that being said, I had no problem manipulating the numbers to get a better comparison.
If, and I know that's a BIG IF, AI had stayed four years or even three years his stats in most categories (scoring, assists, steals, etc) would be unattainable. Look at where he is on the all time lists after just two years!
Iverson Points: 1539 (12) Assists: 307 (13) Steals: 213 (4) PPG: 23.0 (1)
Let's compare that to Pat:
Ewing Points: 2184 (2) Rebounds: 1316 (1) Steals: 167 (14) Blocks: 493 (1) PPG: 15.3 (18) RPG: 9.3 (6)
Now imagine, if AI had stayed all four years. While I can't project how much more prolific he would have been, I can assume that he would have done at least as well as his sophomore year in his junior and senior seasons. His stats would look like this: Points: 3391 (1) -- by over 1087 points Assists: 653 (4) Rebounds: 522 (26) Steals: 461 (1) -- by over 112 PPG: 23.0 (1)
These two players become even more remarkable when you start to breakdown their share of all offensive and defensive production. During their tenures at Georgetown:
Iverson was responsible for: 28.38% of all scoring 8.4% of all rebounds 34.26% of all assists 36.1% of all steals
Ewing was responsible for: 20.89% of all scoring 24.37% of all rebounding 7.4% of all assists 67.9% of all blocks
Both of those sets of stats are astounding. Nothing more so than Ewing being responsible for nearly 70% of the blocks during his time at GU or Iverson scoring nearly 30% of all points. Incredible.
But let's look at individual efforts as well. Pat only managed to have two of the top 50 scoring performances of all time. They are: 35 on 2/13/82 vs. Southern NO (29) 33 on 1/8/85 vs. Seton Hall (45)
Iverson on the other hand had an outlandish 7 of the top 50 scoring performances. What makes that all the more incredible is that he only played 67 games as a Hoya, so over 10% of all his games are amongst the greatest performances of any Hoya. That's once every ten times he suited up. That's incredible. His performances were also primarily within Big East competition or more importantly, the BET. In fact, five of them occured in his sophmore year...can you imagine where he would have ended up. 40 on 11/24/95 vs. Arizona 40 on 1/6/96 vs. Seton Hall (7) 39 on 1/27/96 vs.St. John's (8) 38 on 3/7/96 vs. Miami (19) 37 on 3/2/96 vs. Villanova (21) 34 on 2/28/96 vs. Providence (40) 33 on 12/30/95 vs. St. Leo (46)
Anyways, back to the point. I think that this is such an interesting study because no other players can really compare to these two as far as absolute dominance at the college level. Patrick definitely built the program and had more success -- as measured by championships -- but you can not say that AI didn't have quite an impact. He brought us back to the forefront and created many Hoya fans in a generation that never saw Pat with knees. Anyways, use the stats as you see fit. I love them both as they are both my favorite Hoyas.
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Feb 15, 2005 14:19:51 GMT -5
I wouldn't say Pat built the program. JT2 built the program with some fine teams and players before Ewing. Ewing and his recruiting class put us over the hump or over the top. The fact that we were able to get Ewing as well as the other great players in his recruiting class was a testament to what had already been built with the program. We wouldn't have been able to move into the Capital Center if the program hadn't been building before Ewing.
Forget the stats, in terms of college, Ewing is one of the best COLLEGE, not just Hoya, players ever. I mean 3 final fours, and 3 championship games 4 years, one National Title, and two close calls. The impact he had was unbelievable. He was bigger than life. Don't forget his impact in terms of television, especially ESPN.
That is not to say Iverson didn't have an impact when he arrived at G'town. Before he came we barely got into the NCAA tournament the year before and didn't make the tournament the tournament the year before that. A sweet sixteen, and an elite 8 appearence wasn't too shabby. And we saw the after effects after he left as well. G'town hasn't been the same since, save for the 2000-2001 season and a sub-par season with Victor Page carrying the team a year after Iverson left.
In terms of pro, its really hard to compare. Iverson still has quite a few years left, and Ewing is done. I really don't like to compare hoyas, because all of them have contributed in some shape or form to our success.
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Feb 15, 2005 14:32:09 GMT -5
Way, I agree completely and can't believe how more people don't notice that a 5'11 man is carrying a team of marginal talent (being nice in some respect referring to these guys as marginal) to a .500 record. He's the only FRANCHISE player I know that is under 6'0 tall and can carry a team and dominate a game on a consistent basis. If he had the opportunity to play with some of the teammates guys like Marbury and Francis have, it would be interesting to see how things would be. Well we might get our wish. Screamin' Stephen A. Smith had a very interesting article on Iverson's opinions about the Sixers Organization and how they don't care about winning. I only hope it escalates to the point that he gets traded as I hate Billy King and the Sixers Brass for the way they run a team. It's pathetic and amateur. Only hope that Iverson is gone to anywhere where he can show his talents and have an opportunity to compete for a Championship--afterall he's only played on 1 team with that capability and he carried them to the Finals. I was totally caught off guard by the Stephen A. article. At first I thought Stephen A. was being at it againg, saying things just to stir up conversation, but to hear about AI's unhappiness, and the things that are transpiring behind close doors is really something. Oh yeah, getting Joe Smith and Keith Van Horn for Big Dog and Corliss Williamson (who is great off the bench, I might add) just shows the ineptitude of Billy King. Didn't this guy sign Brian Skinner to a multi-million dollar contract this year. Brian Skinner gets absolutely no playing time. No wonder AI wants out.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 15, 2005 14:33:40 GMT -5
I was totally caught off guard by the Stephen A. article. At first I thought Stephen A. was being at it againg, saying things just to stir up conversation, but to hear about AI's unhappiness, and the things that are transpiring behind close doors is really something. Oh yeah, getting Joe Smith and Keith Van Horn for Big Dog and Corliss Williamson (who is great off the bench, I might add) just shows the ineptitude of Billy King. Didn't this guy sign Brian Skinner to a multi-million dollar contract this year. Brian Skinner gets absolutely no playing time. No wonder AI wants out. On the other hand, the Korver and Igoudala picks were nice, I thought. Both players fit well playing with Iverson.
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Feb 15, 2005 15:07:03 GMT -5
On the other hand, the Korver and Igoudala picks were nice, I thought. Both players fit well playing with Iverson. Agreed. Igoudala and Korver were nice, but overall King is horrible. The last two years have been Billy King teams. Larry Brown pretty much ran the ship when he was there. I think Dalembert is a keeper, and I think O'brien is a good coach. But other than that this team is going nowhwere without a major shakeup in the roster.
|
|
HoyaSox04
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Founding member of the ROCK-tavius Spann Fan Club.
Posts: 726
|
Post by HoyaSox04 on Feb 15, 2005 15:18:46 GMT -5
the_way, can you post the Smith article about Iverson? I'd love to read it.
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Feb 15, 2005 15:32:09 GMT -5
|
|
HoyaSox04
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Founding member of the ROCK-tavius Spann Fan Club.
Posts: 726
|
Post by HoyaSox04 on Feb 15, 2005 15:41:46 GMT -5
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Feb 15, 2005 15:43:10 GMT -5
De nada.
|
|