Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I've got some regrets!
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Post by Bando on Jun 29, 2009 14:34:08 GMT -5
Interesting article in the New York Times today about how a glut of arenas in one city can make them all not profitable. Specifically, it talks a lot about NY/NJ, but also gets into such areas as Minneapolis (two hockey-only arenas, two basketball-only arenas). Kinda makes me happy the Verizon Center is so well-used. I think that either the Nets have to play in Newark or the Islanders need to move to Brooklyn to make these new arenas work.
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mchoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
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Post by mchoya on Jun 29, 2009 16:06:43 GMT -5
The Islanders will move to KC. They are already playing a preseason game there next year, laying the groundwork for a move.
The Isles would lose the battle for seats if they directly competed with the New York Rangers for attendance in Brooklyn. The Rangers are clearly NYC's team and they have enough recent playoff appearances to ensure that the Garden is filled. The Isles run of failure means that there is no hype surrounding them. Additionally, the inevitable increase in ticket prices and parking that would come with a move to Brooklyn would price out the Long Islanders that make up the Isles fan base.
The Brooklyn Nets will work because Yi has a built in fanbase in NYC. If they can somehow land LeBron via part-owner Jay-Z, then the Nets would become the marquee attraction. Even without LeBron, the Nets will hold their own with attendance because the Garden isn't being filled with the Knicks in town.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I've got some regrets!
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Post by Bando on Jun 29, 2009 23:43:01 GMT -5
I would argue that historically the Isles have more of a winning program, but yeah, their attendance numbers are way down. I simply don't think a single-sport arena can work.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Jun 30, 2009 9:26:54 GMT -5
I agree with the point about the Verizon Center, if you're talking about it from the VC's point of view.
But from the point of view of a major college basketball program with no on-campus arena, NYC's competition is way, way better than Washington DC's monopoly. Seton Hall's deal at the Prudential Center is way better than our Verizon Center deal.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I've got some regrets!
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Post by Bando on Jun 30, 2009 10:55:39 GMT -5
I agree with the point about the Verizon Center, if you're talking about it from the VC's point of view. But from the point of view of a major college basketball program with no on-campus arena, NYC's competition is way, way better than Washington DC's monopoly. Seton Hall's deal at the Prudential Center is way better than our Verizon Center deal. I would say it's not just the VC's POV, but probably the city's as well. Having so many events at the VC has generated the kind of sustained foot traffic that has allowed so many businesses to flourish in the area. If the VC was only for the Caps or the Wizards, I doubt Chinatown would be as bustling as it is now. |
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Jun 30, 2009 20:24:55 GMT -5
Not only the amount of foot traffic, but the fact that you bring in totally different crowds for, say, the Caps, the American Idol tour, and Disney on Ice. (Okay, maybe not so different between the last two...).
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Jun 30, 2009 21:05:46 GMT -5
upon first glance i thought this thread was about bruce arena's gut.
sorry but all this confederation cup soccer posting has gone to my head
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jgalt
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by jgalt on Jul 2, 2009 7:19:04 GMT -5
I agree with the point about the Verizon Center, if you're talking about it from the VC's point of view. But from the point of view of a major college basketball program with no on-campus arena, NYC's competition is way, way better than Washington DC's monopoly. Seton Hall's deal at the Prudential Center is way better than our Verizon Center deal. I would say it's not just the VC's POV, but probably the city's as well. Having so many events at the VC has generated the kind of sustained foot traffic that has allowed so many businesses to flourish in the area. If the VC was only for the Caps or the Wizards, I doubt Chinatown would be as bustling as it is now. Thats probably true, but i dont think any one team created the buzz around the VC. The only events that have historically been consistent sell outs or close to it would be the Concerts during the summer. All three of the main teams (for sake of argument we will overlook the attendance records for the Mystics) have suffered periods of prolonged poor attendance. The Wiz are probably the most consistent, The Caps are the powerhouse now (all season tickets sold out months ago), and Georgetown cant get 20K for all games some have to be against FIU and will only ever draw 10K at most to these games, Georgetown also doesnt play enough games to create prolonged buzz. I dont think you can credit one team with the buzz, so i tottally agree that having three major teams, a minor team in the off season, and big name concerts has helped. There is also the chicken and the egg aspect. A lot of Chinatown was built up at the same time as verizon so it may have been able to create a good amount of foot traffic without as many events at VC. There is also the Portrait gallery, the Spy museum, a couple of theaters, and the proximity to the Mall that help encourage traffic. Also parking could be A LOT worse. |
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Jul 2, 2009 8:54:09 GMT -5
I would say it's not just the VC's POV, but probably the city's as well. Having so many events at the VC has generated the kind of sustained foot traffic that has allowed so many businesses to flourish in the area. If the VC was only for the Caps or the Wizards, I doubt Chinatown would be as bustling as it is now. Thats probably true, but i dont think any one team created the buzz around the VC. The only events that have historically been consistent sell outs or close to it would be the Concerts during the summer. All three of the main teams (for sake of argument we will overlook the attendance records for the Mystics) have suffered periods of prolonged poor attendance. The Wiz are probably the most consistent, The Caps are the powerhouse now (all season tickets sold out months ago), and Georgetown cant get 20K for all games some have to be against FIU and will only ever draw 10K at most to these games, Georgetown also doesnt play enough games to create prolonged buzz. I dont think you can credit one team with the buzz, so i tottally agree that having three major teams, a minor team in the off season, and big name concerts has helped. There is also the chicken and the egg aspect. A lot of Chinatown was built up at the same time as verizon so it may have been able to create a good amount of foot traffic without as many events at VC. There is also the Portrait gallery, the Spy museum, a couple of theaters, and the proximity to the Mall that help encourage traffic. Also parking could be A LOT worse. The arena opened in time for my senior year. The Chinatown neighborhood was SUBSTANTIALLY different than it is now, despite the proximity to the Mall. It's accepted by almost all that Verizon was the forcing function - people went to events there, and so businesses a block or two away that sold food had a chance. The Spy Museum opened a few years later, and the redone Smithsonian museums opened a few years later than that. For a while, the Verizon Center was it, and it showed other businesses that they could go there and succeed. On arena competition - DC isn't New York. There's enough arena competition in the area - the Patriot Center, Smith Center, American's facility - but it makes no sense to build a second major league arena. |
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Jul 2, 2009 15:31:40 GMT -5
Thats probably true, but i dont think any one team created the buzz around the VC. The only events that have historically been consistent sell outs or close to it would be the Concerts during the summer. All three of the main teams (for sake of argument we will overlook the attendance records for the Mystics) have suffered periods of prolonged poor attendance. The Wiz are probably the most consistent, The Caps are the powerhouse now (all season tickets sold out months ago), and Georgetown cant get 20K for all games some have to be against FIU and will only ever draw 10K at most to these games, Georgetown also doesnt play enough games to create prolonged buzz. I dont think you can credit one team with the buzz, so i tottally agree that having three major teams, a minor team in the off season, and big name concerts has helped. There is also the chicken and the egg aspect. A lot of Chinatown was built up at the same time as verizon so it may have been able to create a good amount of foot traffic without as many events at VC. There is also the Portrait gallery, the Spy museum, a couple of theaters, and the proximity to the Mall that help encourage traffic. Also parking could be A LOT worse. The arena opened in time for my senior year. The Chinatown neighborhood was SUBSTANTIALLY different than it is now, despite the proximity to the Mall. It's accepted by almost all that Verizon was the forcing function - people went to events there, and so businesses a block or two away that sold food had a chance. The Spy Museum opened a few years later, and the redone Smithsonian museums opened a few years later than that. For a while, the Verizon Center was it, and it showed other businesses that they could go there and succeed. On arena competition - DC isn't New York. There's enough arena competition in the area - the Patriot Center, Smith Center, American's facility - but it makes no sense to build a second major league arena. And in those days, the only bar was the Irish Channel! Even though the Booth is super busy, which hurts GTown's scheduling, DC doesn't need another arena. Maybe an outdoor multi-sport facility where, say, DC United, a lacrosse team, and the Redskins could play. That would be cool. Kinda cool how the Booth was really the catalyst and the anchor for Chinatown's renaissance, even though the businesses could now stand on their own. The 'hood has become self-sustaining. Thanks Abe and Irene! |
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jul 5, 2009 23:01:01 GMT -5
Thats probably true, but i dont think any one team created the buzz around the VC. The only events that have historically been consistent sell outs or close to it would be the Concerts during the summer. All three of the main teams (for sake of argument we will overlook the attendance records for the Mystics) have suffered periods of prolonged poor attendance. The Wiz are probably the most consistent, The Caps are the powerhouse now (all season tickets sold out months ago), and Georgetown cant get 20K for all games some have to be against FIU and will only ever draw 10K at most to these games, Georgetown also doesnt play enough games to create prolonged buzz. I dont think you can credit one team with the buzz, so i tottally agree that having three major teams, a minor team in the off season, and big name concerts has helped. There is also the chicken and the egg aspect. A lot of Chinatown was built up at the same time as verizon so it may have been able to create a good amount of foot traffic without as many events at VC. There is also the Portrait gallery, the Spy museum, a couple of theaters, and the proximity to the Mall that help encourage traffic. Also parking could be A LOT worse. Good post. In light of these comments (and the article), what does everyone think about the Nats stadium and its potential to revitalize Southeast DC? It seems that on the one hand, the stadium alone wouldn't help the neighborhood nearly as much as Verizon (only one team, not really a concert venue, etc.). On the other hand, DC neighborhoods without stadiums (U Street, Columbia Heights) have gentrified quickly in the past five years. Is a stadium in Southeast enough to spur similar development? And: is there a real market for development in SE DC right now? |
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Jul 5, 2009 23:15:40 GMT -5
And: is there a real market for development in SE DC right now? Well, the Navy Yard Five Guys seems to be busy on a game night. Of course, that and a bunch of empty high-rises that are still priced out of any reasonable person's range will get you fat on cajun-style fries and zero chance of a neighborhood springing up in the next five years unless the economy turns from Esherick to Thompson III real quick. Plus side--all the more space for a dozen or so vacant lots to serve as parking for the...IDK, hundred Nats fans that don't take Metro to a game. Not trying to be too sarcastic here...and I would love to convince myself that the stadium = development thing can catch on right now b/c I still hold out hope that DC United will ever get to build a stadium at Poplar Point...but the Nats stadium neighborhood is stuck at Epic Fail for the near future, I'm afraid. |
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Jul 6, 2009 12:52:29 GMT -5
And: is there a real market for development in SE DC right now? Well, the Navy Yard Five Guys seems to be busy on a game night. Of course, that and a bunch of empty high-rises that are still priced out of any reasonable person's range will get you fat on cajun-style fries and zero chance of a neighborhood springing up in the next five years unless the economy turns from Esherick to Thompson III real quick. Plus side--all the more space for a dozen or so vacant lots to serve as parking for the...IDK, hundred Nats fans that don't take Metro to a game. Not trying to be too sarcastic here...and I would love to convince myself that the stadium = development thing can catch on right now b/c I still hold out hope that DC United will ever get to build a stadium at Poplar Point...but the Nats stadium neighborhood is stuck at Epic Fail for the near future, I'm afraid. Yeah, if the economy picks back up that area could really turn around. The plans were great, but then the world came to an end and the team kept sucking even worse than before. Those were to two worst things that could have happened for the development of the area. But it has potential. When the stadium was sold out for the games against Boston, there was a great buzz in the air. You could tell that if the team ever became good, going down the navy yard would be a great experience. You could spend all night (or day if it is a saturday) at the game, restaurants and bars. Also having a neighborhood around the stadium could be good for the team even if they continue to suck. If there are say 1500 residents (is that too high? i have no idea how many condos they were planning on building) living down there, it wouldnt be unreasonable to think that 100 of them would go to a game on a nice friday or saturday night. 100 more people doesnt seem like a lot, but when that stadium only has 10k people in it, thats adding 1% more to the attendance and the drink and food purchases. I know that if i lived down there i would consider going to games over, say, going to the movies. If you buy $5 tickets (which there should be more of, like say the entire upper deck, no one is up there anyway) and eat only a hot dog and a beer, the game wouldnt be much more than a movie with $10 tickets and popcorn and a drink. |
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Jul 6, 2009 13:00:29 GMT -5
DC is slowly running out of Metro-accessible destinations. The Green Line is essentially the last untapped resource, and the Navy Yard is one of the best locales - you can hit the Mall in two stops, and Gallery Place - essentially DC's heart - in four.
The issue, as stated before, is the collapse of economic development. But it won't be that way forever. The Navy Yard area will develop, and the National Stadium will help move it along.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Jul 8, 2009 15:04:18 GMT -5
I think theexorcist is right. Dense development near Metro stations was going to happen anyway, I don't know that the city had to spend $600 million to speed up a process that was already occurring (e.g. the DOT moving into the neighborhood).
The area around Nats stadium has a lot of potential, but until the economy gets better it's going to be tough. There's now a bar right outside the stadium, but it's only open before and after games. The bars on 8th Street SE all pay for golf carts to shuttle people back and forth for now.
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