kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 28, 2011 18:49:01 GMT -5
It does happen all the time but it usually happens in the spring right after the season ends. This time it is happening the day before school starts. Huge difference. At least in the spring you give the kid the opportunity to look elsewhere. I feel you there. But lets not act all "high and mighty" as we usually do bc ANY coach worth his salt would do the same to get the NUMBER ONE player in the nation. He didnt bump a guy to get a slightly appealing prospect. Case n point, if the roles were reversed and we could have got AD but the schollie of say Nikita was standing in the way or Jerelle, everyone would be furious if we lost that commit bc of a the last scholarship player on the depth chart. Besides, the player that was asked to give up his schollie may have money, or he may have his academics in order enough to get an academic schollie. Lastly, it really does fall on Drummond. He did this. He waited til two days before class to decide he would come to college. But when you are the BEST in the country, schools will make accommodations for you. Just my 0.02 Just because you have no morals, doesn't mean all college coaches are equally soulless. Most coaches would not pull this stunt. That's why Calhoun has the well-deserved reputation that he does.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 28, 2011 19:01:39 GMT -5
Can we stop with the "once you are recruited as a scholarship player you always count as a scholarship player" junk? I don't think anyone is saying that. Drummond will count against the scholarship limit. There's no disputing that.
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Post by gtowndynasty on Aug 28, 2011 19:20:00 GMT -5
I guess. It happens at many big time programs. Cal did it when he got to Ky. Calhoun has done it this year. Schollies are one year redeemable for a reason. If some coaches are too high and mighty to reassess their situation fine. If some coaches want to tell a kid his pt will be minimal and suggest transfer, fine. It all points to the same thing. III has suggested players look elsewhere bc they wont be getting pt, ie-recruited over. If that makes him a saint and calhoun/calapari the devil, that is fine.
At the beginning/middle/end of the day, these coaches have a job to do. If the #1 player in the nation wants to come help you "feed your family" by helping your program, I think the overwhelming majority of college coaches pull the trigger and do what is necessary to get him.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 28, 2011 19:22:48 GMT -5
I guess. It happens at many big time programs. Cal did it when he got to Ky. Calhoun has done it this year. Schollies are one year redeemable for a reason. If some coaches are too high and mighty to reassess their situation fine. If some coaches want to tell a kid his pt will be minimal and suggest transfer, fine. It all points to the same thing. III has suggested players look elsewhere bc they wont be getting pt, ie-recruited over. If that makes him a saint and calhoun/calapari the devil, that is fine. At the beginning/middle/end of the day, these coaches have a job to do. If the #1 player in the nation wants to come help you "feed your family" by helping your program, I think the overwhelming majority of college coaches pull the trigger and do what is necessary to get him. You're really trying to equate JT3 with Calhoun and Calipari? Really? Also, great argument there. You go from saying "It happens at many big time programs" to being able to only name Calhoun and Calipari. Those are some paragons of coaching integrity.
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gahoya
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Post by gahoya on Aug 28, 2011 20:03:08 GMT -5
I think to an extent it happens at every program. And it must be done to maximize the potential of a program, to an extent. Different coaches have different levels of balancing the amount they use this, obviously, and as you mentioned Calhoun and Calipari are seemingly not reluctant at all in "forcing out" their own players.
Imagine what would have happened if we were full on scholarships and Andre committed to us. The site would have crashed if we denied him somehow.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Aug 28, 2011 22:14:32 GMT -5
Can we stop with the "once you are recruited as a scholarship player you always count as a scholarship player" junk? I don't think anyone is saying that. Drummond will count against the scholarship limit. There's no disputing that. I think the issue is whether the player giving up his scholarship can remain on the team without it counting against the limit.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Aug 29, 2011 9:48:40 GMT -5
Wow, this kid has to take on financial aid. My guess is Calhoun gets him a "job" that pays off that loan right after school. This makes the penalties Uconn received for Miles & their APR a total joke. They are laughing at the NCAA right now. Ridiculous.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Aug 29, 2011 10:11:44 GMT -5
Just win baby! Calhoun is a hell of coach and he knows how to manipulate the system. I like him and his style. He plays a fun style that plays to his kid's strength. If JT3 has half the career of Jimmy C I will be pleased.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 29, 2011 10:14:17 GMT -5
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Aug 29, 2011 10:25:56 GMT -5
Can we stop with the "once you are recruited as a scholarship player you always count as a scholarship player" junk? I don't think anyone is saying that. Drummond will count against the scholarship limit. There's no disputing that. I'm referring to the kid that is going from being on scholarship to staying on the team in a non-scholarship role. I think his name is Bradley. Well Bradley just went from being a recruited scholarship player to a non-scholarship role. UCONN only has 10 scholarships for this season but all of a sudden they have 11 players that should count as scholarship players. During our discussion about the kid from Harvard possibly walking on at Georgetown, it was said that once you are a NCAA counter, you are always a counter. Well not in this case.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 29, 2011 11:46:57 GMT -5
"once you are a NCAA counter, you are always a counter"
Would that poster please explain the Bradley case as it relates to going from counter to not counting?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 29, 2011 12:11:22 GMT -5
"once you are a NCAA counter, you are always a counter" Would that poster please explain the Bradley case as it relates to going from counter to not counting? It's easy to explain. Scholarships are one-year agreements (from the school's perspective). The school doesn't have to renew the scholarship. However, when a recruited player goes to a new school (either from HS or as a transfer), we will count against the scholarships for the year he enters -- whether or not he actually receives a scholarship. After that year, the school is under no obligation to renew the scholarship, and he could become a non-scholarship athlete. PE, Jr. could not have transferred to GU as a walk-on. He was a recruited player, so he would count against the scholarship limit that first year. My understanding is he could have become a non-scholarship player his senior season under the rules and not counted against the limit. In UCon's case, Bradley counted against the scholarship limit his first year, but won't this year. Drummond will be a counter this year, no matter what, as this piece from the Hartford Courant explains: blogs.courant.com/uconn_mens_basketball/2011/08/andre-drummond-uconn-mens-bask.htmlThe statement "once a counter, always a counter" has to be seen in the proper context.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Aug 29, 2011 12:12:55 GMT -5
What was said in the case of Kenyi is that if you are a recruited athlete, you are a counter regardless of whether you receive an athletic scholarship. That's black letter. Whether that means you are always a counter...it appears not, since if you were UConn would be over with the addition of another counter in Drummond.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 29, 2011 13:01:17 GMT -5
There are a number of nuances associated with this issue. First, anyone who thinks that all the kids who transfer out of programs every year are doing so solely because they want out is being naive. On the other hand, I'm sure there are lots of kids who will tell the coach that they love the university, want to continue there, and will take on any role they are given with the team. Not all coaches would react the same way to that message. I'm confident as to how JTIII would react. Second, if Drummond called III and said he wanted to attend Georgetown, it would have gotten done somehow. That's not selling your soul to the devil, it's a fact of life. Third,...well, I was interrupted by a business call while typing this, and now I've lost my train of thought. Damn that, anyway. I'll just modify my post if I remember what I wanted to add.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Aug 29, 2011 13:25:54 GMT -5
"once you are a NCAA counter, you are always a counter" Would that poster please explain the Bradley case as it relates to going from counter to not counting? It's easy to explain. Scholarships are one-year agreements (from the school's perspective). The school doesn't have to renew the scholarship. However, when a recruited player goes to a new school (either from HS or as a transfer), we will count against the scholarships for the year he enters -- whether or not he actually receives a scholarship. After that year, the school is under no obligation to renew the scholarship, and he could become a non-scholarship athlete. PE, Jr. could not have transferred to GU as a walk-on. He was a recruited player, so he would count against the scholarship limit that first year. My understanding is he could have become a non-scholarship player his senior season under the rules and not counted against the limit. In UCon's case, Bradley counted against the scholarship limit his first year, but won't this year. Drummond will be a counter this year, no matter what, as this piece from the Hartford Courant explains: blogs.courant.com/uconn_mens_basketball/2011/08/andre-drummond-uconn-mens-bask.htmlThe statement "once a counter, always a counter" has to be seen in the proper context. Nice explanation. See, you don't always have to be a social assassin when posting on here.
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Post by gtowndynasty on Aug 29, 2011 13:49:13 GMT -5
There are a number of nuances associated with this issue. First, anyone who thinks that all the kids who transfer out of programs every year are doing so solely because they want out is being naive. On the other hand, I'm sure there are lots of kids who will tell the coach that they love the university, want to continue there, and will take on any role they are given with the team. Not all coaches would react the same way to that message. I'm confident as to how JTIII would react. Second, if Drummond called III and said he wanted to attend Georgetown, it would have gotten done somehow. That's not selling your soul to the devil, it's a fact of life. Third,...well, I was interrupted by a business call while typing this, and now I've lost my train of thought. Damn that, anyway. I'll just modify my post if I remember what I wanted to add. EXACTLY. This is what I was saying and anyone who disagrees doesnt understand that a coach's job is to win. Pulling a schollie is not selling your soul to the devil. The NCAA allows this as schollies are one year renewable. Bottom line, when you compete for titles and the number one player in the nation wants to help you, you accommodate him. I have no issue with Calhoun doing this. This is not to say his other moves have not been questionable, but this one is being totally overblown, by some.
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swhoya
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Post by swhoya on Aug 29, 2011 14:07:14 GMT -5
There are a number of nuances associated with this issue. First, anyone who thinks that all the kids who transfer out of programs every year are doing so solely because they want out is being naive. On the other hand, I'm sure there are lots of kids who will tell the coach that they love the university, want to continue there, and will take on any role they are given with the team. Not all coaches would react the same way to that message. I'm confident as to how JTIII would react. Second, if Drummond called III and said he wanted to attend Georgetown, it would have gotten done somehow. That's not selling your soul to the devil, it's a fact of life. Third,...well, I was interrupted by a business call while typing this, and now I've lost my train of thought. Damn that, anyway. I'll just modify my post if I remember what I wanted to add. EXACTLY. This is what I was saying and anyone who disagrees doesnt understand that a coach's job is to win. Pulling a schollie is not selling your soul to the devil. The NCAA allows this as schollies are one year renewable. Bottom line, when you compete for titles and the number one player in the nation wants to help you, you accommodate him. I have no issue with Calhoun doing this. This is not to say his other moves have not been questionable, but this one is being totally overblown, by some. Sure...so long as you're completely willing to ignore context or act like it doesn't matter. I have no problem with a coach that sits down with a player after a season and tells the player that it's not going to work, it's time to move on. Or that there won't be a scholarship available next year, so either make a new financial plan to continue on there or find a different university. That's a coach treating a player with dignity, allowing the athlete time to make choices. But that is completely different from telling a player, a few days before school starts, that he no longer has the scholarship he thought he had, so he better figure out real quick what he's going to do. I have no doubt that if a guy like Drummond wanted to come to Georgetown, III would do his best to make that happen. But I"m equally sure that, if it meant booting a player (a teammate!) from a schollie hours before school starts, he wouldn't do it. And I think most of us would be proud of that. It's funny, most of us feel like the best thing to come out of the China trip is that the Hoyas came to get each other's back in the brawl; they looked out after one another. Yet some of the posters here seem to take the attitude that it's okay if the coach doesn't have his players' back (or treats them with respect) if it means we might get a better player. I'm glad those posters aren't our coach. On edit: III may never have half the career Calhoun has had. But I'll take him at being twice the man that Calhoun is.
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Post by gtowndynasty on Aug 29, 2011 14:22:52 GMT -5
SWhoya, What you preach sounds good. Ill grant you that. is it practical? I doubt it. And I dont think you know what III would do. I dont think you know III at all. I dont know him so I cant say what he would or wouldnt do. But when you put yourself in Calhoun's position, it is hard to argue against it, especially when you do not know anything about the kid who had his schollie pulled. Will he get an academic schollie? Are his parents well off? Is there some other plan in place that will help him financially? You just DONT know. It seems you are coming down on Calhoun here, but he didnt tell AD to wait until two days before class to decide to attend college. That was AD and his family that did that. You talk about a convo at the end of the season to help the kid prepare, but Calhoun couldnt do that here. The question at that point is simple, do you accommodate the #1 player in the nation or not. It seems like a pretty simple and a clean analysis to me. Take a look at what some of the experts have to say about the move. This is college basketball. It is a big time business and some times these things happen. espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/6905615/writers-roundtable-our-experts-answer-three-big-questions
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Post by BubbleVisionBiff on Aug 29, 2011 14:29:08 GMT -5
Not saying it was going to happen here with AD, but we have a scholly for this year, so no one would have gotten Calhoun-ed.
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swhoya
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Post by swhoya on Aug 29, 2011 14:35:43 GMT -5
SWhoya, What you preach sounds good. Ill grant you that. is it practical? I doubt it. And I dont think you know what III would do. I dont think you know III at all. I dont know him so I cant say what he would or wouldnt do. But when you put yourself in Calhoun's position, it is hard to argue against it, especially when you do not know anything about the kid who had his schollie pulled. Will he get an academic schollie? Are his parents well off? Is there some other plan in place that will help him financially? You just DONT know. It seems you are coming down on Calhoun here, but he didnt tell AD to wait until two days before class to decide to attend college. That was AD and his family that did that. You talk about a convo at the end of the season to help the kid prepare, but Calhoun couldnt do that here. The question at that point is simple, do you accommodate the #1 player in the nation or not. It seems like a pretty simple and a clean analysis to me. Take a look at what some of the experts have to say about the move. This is college basketball. It is a big time business and some times these things happen. espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/6905615/writers-roundtable-our-experts-answer-three-big-questionsNo, I don't know III any more than the people on here claiming he would do it. So yes, it's based on conjecture and my impression of him. Obviously something has happened with the guys that we've had that have transferred, but I still have never seen III say or do anything that would publicly humiliate the player, so I'm inclined to believe he believes in treating his players (even former ones) with respect. I've read some of the experts. Plenty of them are critical, for whatever that's worth. You put a lot of "maybes" about whether the kid losing the schollie can get other means of continuing on. Perhaps he does, perhaps not. Either way, that seems to miss the point. If he were given that choice a couple of months ago, he'd have a whole lot other options. He could get the money, or try to go elsewhere. I'm guessing his options are a whole lot more limited given when he lost his scholarship. And that's the respect part. Yes, it's big business. But I'm guessing it isn't for the kid that lost his scholarship. He's not going to the L. May not ever play European ball either. He probably just wants to play. Coaches and universities make a lot of money off of their players, but the vast majority of the players won't ever get a dime. A bit of decency isn't too much to ask for in return.
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