Recent Players Place in Hoya Top 100?

[DudeSlade]

May 26, 2009 17:02:20 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Was DS good enough to merit a spot on "The Top 100"? Is so, where would you rank him? For those of you new to the Board, here's a link to "The Top 100" www.hoyabasketball.com/features/top100.htm

prhoya brought up this question in regards to DaJuan in one of the many DaJuan threads. Considering it's the offseason, I figured this was a great topic in regards to our recent Hoyas under JTIII and could be its own thread.

The Top 100 list was compiled in 2007, and since then we've seen the completion of 7 great scholarshipped Hoyas careers (either through graduation or early entry to the NBA draft):

Jeff Green, Roy Hibbert, Jon Wallace, Patrick Ewing, Jr., Tyler Crawford, Jessie Sapp, and DaJuan Summers.

Where would you rank them All-Time in the Top 100 list?



I'll write my own opinion a little later, but figured we could get the discussion going first.

[SFHoya99]

Some questions:

Given team success and the extra year, does Jeff bump Allen out of the Top 5? Both were extremely pivotal in somewhat crucial times for GU hoops, IMO.

Is Roy Top 10? You can't put him behind Dikembe, can you? So he's at least Top 15, right?

Wallace has be to before Brandon -- but if we put him Top 25, then are we ranking too much on joint accomplishment? Does one Final Four put that many players in the Top 30 or so?

[kghoya]

May 28, 2009 20:12:20 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Wallace has be to before Brandon -- but if we put him Top 25, then are we ranking too much on joint accomplishment? Does one Final Four put that many players in the Top 30 or so?

its not just that final four appearance...he was also pretty damn clutch last year on a team that won the be reg season and made the bet finals

[hoya73]

Jeff is top 5. #1 power forward, I think, but that's been the weakest position, historically, unless you count Zo as a 4 because of the Mourning/Mutombo configuration. To me, though Mourning's a center. I'd put Roy and JW in the top 100, possibly Dajuan, too, because 100 is a LOT of players. I can't count that high. By position, number 1 includes Duren at the 1, Sleepy at the 2, Reggie at the 3, Jeff at the 4 and Patrick. Others in the top 10; AI, Zo, Barry (before my time, really), Big Sky (#1 power forward before Jeff) and Wingate. Wingate is undervalued because he was on the same squad with Patrick and Reggie. Textbook basketball player, offensively and defensively.

[sleepy]

I don't think when your doing the top 5 players in history, you have to do it by position, we aren't looking for the top starting 5. IMO, I wouldn't put him in the top 5 or above AI, but thats just me. Great player that will continue to do great things as well as a great person and top ten I would think, but not quite top 5. However, I think if he stayed that last year he would have recieved enough championships and accolades for him to get there.

[hoya73]

Second 10, no particular order: Dikembe, Sweetney, McDonald(who I rate higher than concensus has him), D. Jackson, M. Jackson, Merlin Wilson, Mike Laughna (incredible player on our worst team ever), Charles Smith, Othella, Victor Page. BTW, compare the original question to the Top 100 at:

www.hoyabasketball.com/features/top100.htm

Dajuan clearly makes the Top 100, JW and Roy make top 40.

[youngjeezy]

May 28, 2009 20:43:00 GMT -5 kghoya said:

May 28, 2009 20:12:20 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Wallace has be to before Brandon -- but if we put him Top 25, then are we ranking too much on joint accomplishment? Does one Final Four put that many players in the Top 30 or so?

its not just that final four appearance...he was also pretty damn clutch last year on a team that won the be reg season and made the bet finals

lebron's two game-tying FTs the other night made me think back to j-wall hitting those three ice cold free throws on the road against marquette last year... STONE COLD ONIONS.

that and the UNC 3-pointer alone have to cement wallace's place in georgetown history. most prolific 3-point shooter in gtown history and he was a walk-on from princeton coming in.

maybe we just had that many great (and important) players and we didn't realize how lucky we were until it was over (and our team was busy being spanked in the NIT again)?

[DudeSlade]

May 28, 2009 20:12:20 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Some questions:

Given team success and the extra year, does Jeff bump Allen out of the Top 5? Both were extremely pivotal in somewhat crucial times for GU hoops, IMO.

Is Roy Top 10? You can't put him behind Dikembe, can you? So he's at least Top 15, right?

Wallace has be to before Brandon -- but if we put him Top 25, then are we ranking too much on joint accomplishment? Does one Final Four put that many players in the Top 30 or so?

Considering we've only had 5 Final Fours, 7 Big East Tournament titles, and 4 Regular Season titles in our history, I think the team success of this group is important, impressive, and worthy of greater individual recognition. Some or all of this group was responsible for a Sweet 16, Final Four, and Round of 32 appearance, as well as 2 Big East Tournament titles and a Big East regular season title.

Considering our system, also, individual statistics will generally be lower with these guys than in other Georgetown eras, so team accomplishments and the resurgence of the program are even more important to consider, imo.

That said, I agree with the general area you are ranking the players. Allen was so individually dominant that I have a hard time putting Jeff above AI, but the team's performance in his would-be senior year (though still very good, I would contend we would have returned to the Final Four with Jeff) only accentuated his true level of excellence while with us. So I would say #6 for Jeff.

Roy is a difficult case. His overall meaning to the team was far greater than his statistics, yet players like Mike Sweetney had such statistically dominant seasons, it's hard to say who was better. But then Wingate, Smith, Harrington, and Jackson follow him -- all difficult to compare. Because they played the same position, I think it's easier to claim that Roy should be above Dikembe (as much because of the teams' performances as individual level). So somewhere between 10 and 15, but I can't figure out where -- I'd tend to say #11, but I'm a little young to remember the older guys.

Wallace is another whose meaning to the team was far greater than his numbers. But 2 things really stand out: his 3 point shooting and his floor general control of the offense. Have to put him above Bowman, so top 25 for sure.

We mentioned DaJuan in the other thread, but again considering his kind-of contemporaries, Riley (#39) and Bowman (#27), I'd say somewhere around #30.

Because of his senior year, I think it's easy to discount Sapp's contribution, but when considering how well he played in his Soph and Junior year and the many clutch plays that earned him the moniker "Onions," I think he must be ranked higher than his again kind-of contemporary Darrel Owens (#71). But is it in the 40s, 50s, or 60s? I think his senior year makes it difficult to evaluate him -- if he had his typical season, I think he's just above Gerald Riley, but as is, I'm not sure.

I view Pat Ewing Jr. in that difficult to evaluate group as well. Despite only playing 2 years for us, he was invaluable as a 6th man, as noted by his winning the Big East 6th Man of the Year award. Having watched both Darrel Owens and Ewing Jr., I find it hard not to consider Pat at least as valuable as Owens, despite obviously lesser statistics.

Tyler Crawford is the only recent player who I would say is obviously not in the top 100 (though I loved him as a Hoya whose leadership was invaluable).

[71hoya]

The following disclaimer appears at the top of the list of the top 100.

"Players were selected based on a number of objective and subjective criteria, including statistical records, their impact upon the program at the time of their play, and the individual records set during their career. The overall goal was to honor the efforts of many generations of players for their contributions to the history of the men's basketball program at Georgetown"


With that in mind, here are my picks.

Jeff, between 15 and 20
Roy, between 45 and 50.
Wallace, between 30 and 40
DaJuan Summers, between 35 and 45
No one else makes the top 100.

[MCIGuy]

May 28, 2009 21:12:18 GMT -5 sleepy said:

I don't think when your doing the top 5 players in history, you have to do it by position, we aren't looking for the top starting 5. IMO, I wouldn't put him in the top 5 or above AI, but thats just me. Great player that will continue to do great things as well as a great person and top ten I would think, but not quite top 5. However, I think if he stayed that last year he would have recieved enough championships and accolades for him to get there.

I agree. The top six is still untouched in my eyes: Ewing, Reggie, Sleepy, AI, Zo, Sweetney. (Yes, Sweetney). Green, IMO, is fighting for that 7th spot.

[DudeSlade]

71hoya, hoya73, I'm going to make the possibly erroneous assumption that those are the years you graduated, which would mean you have much more perspective on the players' value to the "history of the men's basketball program at Georgetown" than I do. I tried ranking the players based primarily on the players that I've known, which is admittedly only the late Esherick and JTIII years.

I am curious with your perspective why you rank the players lower than I had thought and don't include Sapp or PEJr. on the list at all? I feel like I am missing something about the older players, but can't seem to rectify it with what I know of guys like Riley, Bowman, Cook, and Owens and their place on here.

[MCIGuy]

May 28, 2009 22:32:39 GMT -5 71hoya said:

The following disclaimer appears at the top of the list of the top 100.

"Players were selected based on a number of objective and subjective criteria, including statistical records, their impact upon the program at the time of their play, and the individual records set during their career. The overall goal was to honor the efforts of many generations of players for their contributions to the history of the men's basketball program at Georgetown"


With that in mind, here are my picks.

Jeff, between 15 and 20
Roy, between 45 and 50.
Wallace, between 30 and 40
DaJuan Summers, between 35 and 45
No one else makes the top 100.

Too low for Jeff. He's a definite top ten performer. One more season and he is probably top five.

Way too low for Roy. Roy is a one time Second Team All Big East, two time First Team All Big East, two time All Big East tournament and one time all Regional (NCAA Tournament) team (for the FF year). He may have even made the All Final Four team. Oh, yeah. He was Second Team All American too. And until his final game Roy had scored double figures in every NCAA tourney game he played in making him one of the very best NCAA tournament performers the Hoyas have ever had. How that puts him in the 45 to 50 range is a head scratcher to say the least. That must make the all time Hoya list as talented as UNC's and UCLA's. Seriously not many other Hoyas have come close to matching Roy's contributions as well as his accolades. Certainly not 40 or 45 guys. He's a top 15 guy at worst.

Wallace is about right. Could be bumped into top 25 though.


Summers being higher than Roy? Now that's just nuts. I love DaJuan but did he make First Team All Big East this past season? If so isn't that the only time he was chosen All Big East (first or second team)? And during the season in which he was THE MAN, the Hoyas (albeit young) did not make the NCAA tourney, had a losing record in bE play and lost in the first round of the NIT tourney. Come on, man.

[Jack]

May 28, 2009 22:32:39 GMT -5 71hoya said:

The following disclaimer appears at the top of the list of the top 100.

"Players were selected based on a number of objective and subjective criteria, including statistical records, their impact upon the program at the time of their play, and the individual records set during their career. The overall goal was to honor the efforts of many generations of players for their contributions to the history of the men's basketball program at Georgetown"


With that in mind, here are my picks.

Jeff, between 15 and 20
Roy, between 45 and 50.
Wallace, between 30 and 40
DaJuan Summers, between 35 and 45
No one else makes the top 100.

Any ranking that does not have Jeff Green in the Top 10 (and Roy Hibbert in the Top 25) is unfathomable. I agree with Jeff at 6 and Roy at 15- their per game averages in no way measure their value to their teams and to the program as a whole, and the success of those teams speaks for itself. How you can have Summers ranked higher than Hibbert (though perhaps still a bit low overall) is beyond my comprehension.

[TBird41]

May 28, 2009 22:32:39 GMT -5 71hoya said:

The following disclaimer appears at the top of the list of the top 100.

"Players were selected based on a number of objective and subjective criteria, including statistical records, their impact upon the program at the time of their play, and the individual records set during their career. The overall goal was to honor the efforts of many generations of players for their contributions to the history of the men's basketball program at Georgetown"


With that in mind, here are my picks.

Jeff, between 15 and 20
Roy, between 45 and 50.
Wallace, between 30 and 40
DaJuan Summers, between 35 and 45
No one else makes the top 100.

Care to explain why you have Wallace ahead of Roy? Wallace was a very good player, but it was never his team. 06-07 was Jeff's team, and 07-08 was Roy's. JWall was part of the big three, but he was clearly behind Roy and Jeff.

[hoyaLS05]

May 28, 2009 23:15:21 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

May 28, 2009 22:32:39 GMT -5 71hoya said:

The following disclaimer appears at the top of the list of the top 100.

"Players were selected based on a number of objective and subjective criteria, including statistical records, their impact upon the program at the time of their play, and the individual records set during their career. The overall goal was to honor the efforts of many generations of players for their contributions to the history of the men's basketball program at Georgetown"


With that in mind, here are my picks.

Jeff, between 15 and 20
Roy, between 45 and 50.
Wallace, between 30 and 40
DaJuan Summers, between 35 and 45
No one else makes the top 100.

Care to explain why you have Wallace ahead of Roy? Wallace was a very good player, but it was never his team. 06-07 was Jeff's team, and 07-08 was Roy's. JWall was part of the big three, but he was clearly behind Roy and Jeff.

And both Brandon Bowman and Gerald Riley ahead of Roy??

[SirSaxa]

Jeff Green -- BE ROY and BE POY, BE Conference Champ, BE Tourney Champ, and NCAA Sweet Sixteen and Final Four -- belongs at #6 on the all time Hoya list. The only players in Hoya History who rank ahead of him are (Order can be juggled, but these guys are all top 5): Pat, Sleepy, Reggie, AI, Zo.

Hoya Chris.... I have refrained from my occasional calls for an Update of your Top 50 list... but maybe this thread will prompt you?

And the rest of the board,
Roy and Jon will be ranked ahead of everyone else on those lists and don't forget Pat. Jr.

[blueandgray]

Alright, I'll give it a shot. IMHO, of the seven players in question, everyone with the exception of Tyler crack the top 100. Everyone from Waldron to Rice get pushed out. Here's where I'd rank them:

Jeff Green #5 - He's definitely higher than Iverson in my book. While Iverson put up crazy numbers...he was never the team leader that Jeff was and because of that could never deliver a BET or FF. The only question is whether Jeff leap frogs ZO...I say no because Zo stayed all four years...but its a very close call.

Roy Hibbert #13 - Sure, he started his career slow...but by his junior year year he was a force to be reckoned with...just ask Aaron Gray, Oden or Psycho T. He had the college basketball world waiting to see if he'd return to school....he made the right decision and delivered another BET. At the end of his run, he delivered a FF and two BET's....can't ask for much more.

Jon Wallace #20 - He started more games than anyone in G'town history. He hit arguable the third biggest shot in G'town bball history with his dagger vs UNC (behind only Ewing's tip in vs SMU, and Green's half hook/travel vs Vandy), he was Mr. Clutch and played better than any hoya in his FF performance vs. Ohio St.. He always played well in huge games, whereas VP went 0 for whatever in the biggest game of his career against UMASS. I'd take Wallace in his four years over Page in his two.

Dajuan #39 - DS is a touchy subject, let's just say I'd put him just ahead of Riley and Churchwell.

Jessie Sapp #70 - I place him in importance somewhere around Boubacar Aw. I wouldn't put him as high as Gene Smith at #68, but would put him ahead of Owens and Nate Burton at #71 and #72.

PE2 #75 - This is a tricky one because its hard to account for all the intangibles he brough to the table. In the end, I'd put him a couple of spots ahead of Don Reid.

[SFHoya99]

May 29, 2009 10:12:07 GMT -5 blueandgray said:

Jeff Green #5 - He's definitely higher than Iverson in my book. While Iverson put up crazy numbers...he was never the team leader that Jeff was and because of that could never deliver a BET or FF. The only question is whether Jeff leap frogs ZO...I say no because Zo stayed all four years...but its a very close call.

Agree. Three years versus two, more team success, BE POY. Iverson was great, but 50% more games is huge. And while it would have been fun to see Iverson as a junior -- it didn't happen.

Roy Hibbert #13 - Sure, he started his career slow...but by his junior year year he was a force to be reckoned with...just ask Aaron Gray, Oden or Psycho T. He had the college basketball world waiting to see if he'd return to school....he made the right decision and delivered another BET. At the end of his run, he delivered a FF and two BET's....can't ask for much more.

You're right. Maybe even a bit low. There should be ZERO apologies here. The only question is is he higher? People continually short sell Hibbert.

Do people realize our FG% Defense was as good with Hibbert as it was with Zo AND Mutombo? That while his counting numbers aren't as good as Zo's, and he wasn't as good a rebounder, his offense was vastly superior to Mutombo's and he was a very efficient scorer (Zo was obviously more dominant offensively).

I really can't imagine a logic where he's in the 50s.

[MCIGuy]

I think folks are selling Sweetney short when it comes to top five to top six. Sure his teams didn't really do anything but that's more the result of his coach and his teammate. In his soph season his Hoyas were ROBBED by not getting an NCAA tourney invite. In his last season he was going against guys like Okafor, Caron Butler, Carmello, etc. That Syracuse team could do nothing against him but each time his the Hoyas lost. Is he to blame for that? At best partially but I think he did all he could do in those contests. Most importantly to me I don't see Sweetney having such dismal outings against Ohio State like Jeff did in the FF or Roy did against Davidson. I can barely recall big games in which Sweetney came up short like that. Also if DaJuan gets drafted in the first round that means there were three first round draft picks in the Hoyas front court that season of the Final Four, and one second round draft pick coming off the bench in Pat Ewing Jr. In Sweetney's final season, when he was a junior ala Jeff, who the heck was he playing alongside? Frankly if you look at that top 100 list Sweetney during his run played alongside an inferior collection of teammates than Ewing, Zo, AI, Sleepy, Reggie and Jeff. Even some of his best teammates during that stretch (like Owens, Bowman and Cook) didn't really get good until they were upperclassmen and Sweets was no longer around. The dude almost singlehandedly kept Gtown somewhat revel ant during a couple of years.

[MCIGuy]

May 29, 2009 10:12:07 GMT -5 blueandgray said:

he was Mr. Clutch and played better than any hoya in his FF performance vs. Ohio St..

I would say one teammate played better than Wallace in that game.

PE2 #75 - This is a tricky one because its hard to account for all the intangibles he brough to the table. In the end, I'd put him a couple of spots ahead of Don Reid.

I can't put him above Don. Don was not only a four year player he also may have had the biggest putback in the history of the program.