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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Feb 10, 2005 18:55:51 GMT -5
In all honesty, I think 007 makes some good points, although the language with which he conveys them might upset the inner SFSer in all of us because it isn't always diplomatic. The reality is that there is a large portion of the student section that is not completely engaged with the rest of the section. This could result from a variety of things, but it often relates to what 007 has identified in the cell phone usage and other nonsense.
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HoyaSox04
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Post by HoyaSox04 on Feb 10, 2005 19:06:45 GMT -5
You know what, why dont you get off my freaking case. I'm not saying that everyone has to be a die-hard and completely into every second of the game, but the fact is that there are a lot of horrible fans. And when I say horrible fans I mean people who don't pay attention to the game at all and sit around talking on their cell phones or to their friends. FLHoya knows about this as he complains about those types to me all the time. So you know what, those people aren't there making noise and rooting for the team. I guess you're one of the people who doesn't like me because of some comments I've made, but give it a break dude. The fact is that there are a lot of really bad fans, and Im not saying they all have to dress up like the Cameron Crazies, but I am saying that they have to pay a little bit of attention to the game and make some noise. I really don't have an opinion about you one way or the other, 007. I admire your passion for the Hoyas and the work that you've tried to do. I also think that a lot of your logic and thinking about the situation is flawed because you fail to realize the reality of the situation. Trust me, I have better things to do with my time than waste my energy hating you. You are going to get "bad fans" wherever you are. Duke, UNC, Georgetown, Syracuse, UMass, blah blah blah. Your definition of a bad fan is someone who PAYS for a ticket (thereby giving money back to the university and the basketball program), comes to the game, pays attention most of the game, cheers when the hoyas do well, but doesn't stand on their feet the entire game, yell and scream... come on. I know that your sense of reality is narrowed because of your passion, which is not a bad thing, but you have to realize that not everyone is like you or me or the other people on the talkboard or the other people who sit in the front rows. These people take the time out of their day to travel all the way downtown to cheer on the hoyas when I'm sure they could be doing other things. Would I like it if everyone dressed up and did all that crap? No, I wouldnt. I think the reason the Duke fans are now laughingstocks and parodies of themselves is because they're all trying to outdo each other in terms of how much body paint each of them is wearing, or who can come up with the most "original" cheer, etc etc etc. I like the fact that we have such a diverse group of people who come to the games. I like the fact that a lot of women, who might necessarily be as into the games as you or I, come to the games. Why? Because EVERY single person is important to our fan base. I don't just want the 200 people who care the most there. The fact that we even sell out the student section is a testament to how great our fans are this year, as opposed to the last few years. At most schools, a team as bad as our's last year would have left a stinging memory in the minds of many, who would have been skeptical to return so quick (ie: what you are seeing in those people NOT students right now). The fact that our university has turned around immediately and embraced this team is a testament to how good our fans are to begin with.
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Feb 10, 2005 19:13:39 GMT -5
Sorry man, that's not true. I guess you haven't seen this first hand and that's why you don't understand. I am talking about really bad fans. I see a lot of people who don't watch the game very much at all, rarely if ever make noise, and spend most of the time just talking to friends or talking on their cell phones. That is a bad fan period, not because I am so passionate that I expect everyone to cover their entire bodies with paint for every game.
Also, the fact that they PAY for a ticket doesn't show that they are fans. People around here waste a lot of money on really stupid things because they don't respect it. Not everyone can just throw money around, but there are a lot of people who do and they certainly aren't thinking about the fact that they are giving money back to the university.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 10, 2005 19:14:26 GMT -5
The fact that we even sell out the student section is a testament to how great our fans are this year, as opposed to the last few years. At most schools, a team as bad as our's last year would have left a stinging memory in the minds of many, who would have been skeptical to return so quick (ie: what you are seeing in those people NOT students right now). The fact that our university has turned around immediately and embraced this team is a testament to how good our fans are to begin with. I think you are giving a little too much credit. If this was an Esherick coached team? Then you are probably right. Momentum was created by hiring JT3-it signaled that the University was going to try again and it brought in the single most recognizable name in Georgetown basketball. I don't think it's asking too much for a BASKETBALL SCHOOL (which we are, and which students want us to be) to get out and support the rejuvenation of the program. That being said, I think It's great that the students are coming out, but now they need to be turned into a "student section"-kinda like 5 bball players becoming a team. How we create an atmosphere where it's never ok to leave early, everyone screams their lungs out, etc... is a problem that we are still struggling with. We have the students at the games now-all we need to do is mold them into a unified section. So, instead of everyone taking pot shots at people like 007, who want to improve GTown basketball, maybe you could offer some ideas as to how to make the student section better instead?
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Feb 10, 2005 19:41:06 GMT -5
I don't think it's asking too much for a BASKETBALL SCHOOL (which we are, and which students want us to be) to get out and support the rejuvenation of the program. That being said, I think It's great that the students are coming out, but now they need to be turned into a "student section"-kinda like 5 bball players becoming a team. How we create an atmosphere where it's never ok to leave early, everyone screams their lungs out, etc... is a problem that we are still struggling with. We have the students at the games now-all we need to do is mold them into a unified section. So, instead of everyone taking pot shots at people like 007, who want to improve GTown basketball, maybe you could offer some ideas as to how to make the student section better instead? I'm going to be shamelessly self-promoting here, and I hope people will allow me. One of the columns I wrote for HS.com over the summer was called "The VCW6 Theory of Freshman Fans". Here's where it is: www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/backpage/hawkes_071404.htmIt was intended to be a guide to how to get freshmen interested in the basketball team and coming to the MCI Center. But I think two of the main ideas of the article are relevant to this discussion. One of them was part of the main ideas of the whole series of columns I did: "Every student is significant when it comes to creating a strong fan base, and accordingly any successful strategy for promoting the basketball team (or any sports team) must take advantage of the broadest number of students possible." That includes the people on cell phones who don't pay attention to the games. I complain about them all the time--007's right, he has to listen to me do it A LOT, as these folks invariably find a way to sit in every direction directly surrounding me. But it's a given as I said previously in this thread that when the program is on its way back up, and when the several factors related to the school/student body bias us towards the "a la carte" philosophy on being a fan, there's going to be different levels of fans. That's the second point. My whole article is based on the theory that there are about 5 or so different "levels" of basketball fans at GU, differentiated by the number of games they go to and their interest. I estimated about half the campus falls into the BOTTOM category of barely even noticing the team, and the other half is divided between the other levels. What I proposed as a broad goal based on this was that we needed as students to work on moving everyone "up a level". Fans who go to most games could be persuaded to become die hards, fans who go only for big games would come to non-conference games, people on their cell phones would...turn them the heck off and watch the stupid game!!! A lot of things go into this: the team being better helps a lot. But promotions and improving the in-game experience are important too. And TBird's broad suggestions above are a good place to start for ideas for how we can do it as students. This is everyone's responsability--you can't just expect the die-hards in the front row to do everything. Like I said before, 50 people doing a chant does nothing. We have to grow this sucker organically, and we have to collectively raise our standards--in a NICE WAY (read: no violence against people on cell phones at games, but you are perfectly well encouraged to try public humiliation in the form of chanting at them to turn it off--that always worked well at Florida games with t-shirts i hear.) I don't blame 007 for being frustrated--to everyone who gets angry sometimes at him, I can tell all of you that if you met him, you'd never say a bad thing about him and you could never accuse him of having a big ego. The only reason I even brought up the "horrible fans" comment was because as much as I agree that some fans in our section could use some work and don't fall under the category of "legitimate work, school, philosophical reason why I can't devote my time to GU Hoops as much as I want to"...I don't like bringing myself to use the term "horrible" or its ilk to describe any of our fans. I figure if they're that way, it's up to us to make it so that they learn to love the Hoyas or that the front of the section is so full of people who HAVE learned already that there's no place for them anymore. I hope we're headed there.
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Bahstin
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Post by Bahstin on Feb 11, 2005 8:35:54 GMT -5
Those in the student section are not horrible fans. Those that are back on campus not knowing or caring that there is a game are horrible fans. Let's keep things in perpective.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2005 9:25:57 GMT -5
In terms of the best student section at any school for any sport, it has to be Notre Dame and the student section at football games. If you've never sat in it or at least seen it, I can't describe it. Let's just say everyone knows every single cheer, they all cheer in unison, and they are SMART. Hands down the best student section in the country. I dunno... you should see the Boston University hockey fans. Now THAT'S hilarity at high decibel levels. I've never been so entertained and impressed in my life as I was at the Beanpot Tourney on Monday (best chant ever: "Ugly Goalie" for those of you who know what I'm talking about). Those in the student section are not horrible fans. Those that are back on campus not knowing or caring that there is a game are horrible fans. Let's keep things in perpective. Bahstin is right. He and I were there for some VERY lean years when 100 people in the student section was an accomplishment (think Demian Bolden, Dean Berry, etc.). At least people are coming now. There ALWAYS have been and ALWAYS will be people on their phones not paying attention. I'd rather have them there cheering only at key points in the game then sitting back in their dorms playing X-Box or hanging out at some embassy party.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 11, 2005 9:48:40 GMT -5
I'm going to have to agree with Buffalo on this one. It's the fans that haven't shown up at all that are bad fans...well, they aren't even fans to be honest. I think the problem here, is the language you used to describe people who are showing up.
As an alumn from the darkest years in Hoya hoops I can tell you that its almost mind boggling that anyone shows up. I think I was one of a dozen people who would show up for a noon start against WV regularly.
My point is, your complaints about the "bad" fans sound a little extreme compared to what some of us had to deal with in our day.
Trust me, you have a very strong foundation. This is the first year of JTIII. The team is winning and playing with passion. The fans are getting excited. You designed T-shirts. Hell, I can hear your cheers on TV...when was the last time that was true? We can't become a Cameron or Alumni Hall or RAC over night...its just not possible. This year, just focus on getting people to the game. Drive up attendence numbers. When those goals are acheived, the cheers and excitement will create themselves.
007, Rome was not built in a day and you have to understand that you are dismantling a defeatist culture and attempting to recapture the sense of excitiment that left the hilltop sometime in the mid-nineties. But fear not, many of those kids will graduate in the next couple years and the underclassmen, who untarnished by that heartache will be more active and excited.
But don't call the people who show up bad fans, that smacks of elitism. Righteous attitudes just begets resentment. We are all Hoyas. We all bleed Blue and Gray.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2005 9:51:26 GMT -5
Amen.
After we make it to the tourney this year, it will be VITAL to get those incoming freshmen next year and get them involved fast.
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HoyaSox04
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Post by HoyaSox04 on Feb 11, 2005 10:32:34 GMT -5
Sorry man, that's not true. I guess you haven't seen this first hand and that's why you don't understand. I am talking about really bad fans. I see a lot of people who don't watch the game very much at all, rarely if ever make noise, and spend most of the time just talking to friends or talking on their cell phones. That is a bad fan period, not because I am so passionate that I expect everyone to cover their entire bodies with paint for every game. Also, the fact that they PAY for a ticket doesn't show that they are fans. People around here waste a lot of money on really stupid things because they don't respect it. Not everyone can just throw money around, but there are a lot of people who do and they certainly aren't thinking about the fact that they are giving money back to the university. You're very wrong. The fact that they take time out of their day, when I'm sure that they could be doing other things, as we all could be, and took the bus or the metro or a cab all the way down to the Phone Booth to cheer on our team means that they are a FAN. Maybe not to you, but to everyone else they are. The fact that they pay for a ticket and come to the game does in fact make them a fan. I'm not taking pot shots at you, 007. Like I said, I respect your passion and enthusiasm when it comes to our Hoyas, and I really wish that we could fill up the Phone Booth for every game with people with that type of passion. But you have to realize the reality of the situation. With each win and each march towards the Tourney, the fan base, not just the student section, continues to grow. Give them time. They will come, and with each new generation the veneer of the Esh years will be wiped away; the pessimism of those classes that had to witness that will be wiped away. I can tell you this, my last three years on campus were the worst three years that Georgetown has had in quite some time. It will just take time, that's all. Patience my man, patience. That's what JT3 is preaching, and that's what we must preach as well. Those in the student section are not horrible fans. Those that are back on campus not knowing or caring that there is a game are horrible fans. Let's keep things in perpective. This is what I was trying to say in my original post. Thanks for clarifying that for me Bahstin. By the way, great name.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 11, 2005 11:37:55 GMT -5
I think the problem is, as FL articulated, that there are way too many of the fans that come to the game (so yes, they are fans) but don't really get into it. They watch, they'll cheer during big plays, but they are only a level above the people that don't come-in 007's mind, they're horrible fans, yes they are fans, but they aren't very good ones. I personally prefer FL's description of them, but the key now is to capitalize on the fact that they are there and to make sure that they continue coming and that they turn into fans that come solely for the game-not for the beer, not to be seen, but solely to cheer on the team.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Feb 11, 2005 12:05:39 GMT -5
I don't necessarily think that getting them there solely cheer on the team is the issue, as long as we get them there primarily for the cheering experience.
I think the key is to offer more reasons (winning is definitely the biggest) for students -- and alumni, and DC sports fans -- to want to
a) show up to games, if they're not there now b) show up to more games, if they're not currently going to all of them c) get into the game experience (learning and participating in the cheers, wearing G'town clothes, focusing most of their energy on the game). (d) use "c" to repeat step "b"
The people who are at the game are not horrible fans, they're just at the (a) or (b) level. And with each game and each effort, we can move people further up the chain. The reason I made my origninal post in this thread is because I think that saying people who show up to games are horrible fans is not a helpful comment in any setting, particularly in one talking about how to improve.
(Sorry, FL, if I stole ideas from your HS.com article in this post, but I haven't read it since the summer, so if it seeped into my post, that just means you've done a great job of taking over my subconscious).
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 11, 2005 12:26:28 GMT -5
I don't necessarily think that getting them there solely cheer on the team is the issue, as long as we get them there primarily for the cheering experience. I think the key is to offer more reasons (winning is definitely the biggest) for students -- and alumni, and DC sports fans -- to want to a) show up to games, if they're not there now b) show up to more games, if they're not currently going to all of them c) get into the game experience (learning and participating in the cheers, wearing G'town clothes, focusing most of their energy on the game). (d) use "c" to repeat step "b" The people who are at the game are not horrible fans, they're just at the (a) or (b) level. And with each game and each effort, we can move people further up the chain. The reason I made my origninal post in this thread is because I think that saying people who show up to games are horrible fans is not a helpful comment in any setting, particularly in one talking about how to improve. (Sorry, FL, if I stole ideas from your HS.com article in this post, but I haven't read it since the summer, so if it seeped into my post, that just means you've done a great job of taking over my subconscious). That's pretty much what I've been trying to say THB. And, I think everyone pretty much agrees on it. My opinion on this is that the keys to creating a true home court advantage are creating a dominating student section and to keep winning. The student section is what provides the college atmosphere to the game (an important draw for the alumni/dc residents) while winning, obviously, will bring back the fans. So the questions are, 1) How do we accomplish a, b, c for the rest of this year and next year for the students? 2) Can Hoya Blue accomplish them? 3) If not, how do we go about fixing HB, or, if that is impossible, replace it? This year is the key-we have an exciting team and we need to capitalize on the momentum.
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Whoya
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Post by Whoya on Feb 11, 2005 12:36:54 GMT -5
Now, if the article is true that they are starting to become more interested in themselves than in the game, thats a problem. As someone who attended many a game in Cameron for three years, I can tell you with first hand knowledge that by the 1999-2000 season, they had already become more interested in themselves than the team.
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Feb 11, 2005 13:11:55 GMT -5
I don't think the cell phone thing is something that isn't just restricted to Hoya fans or basketball games for that matter. It seems that we have a growing number of people who feel that a cell phone to their ear somehow symbolizes some level of self-importance or that they have friends or someone who cares about them. My 20 year-old cousin just moved in with me down in NC for a semester because she is transferring to UNC in the fall and I've never seen anyone have more conversations in one day with different people about absolutely nothing in my life. I guess my point is that I don't think the cell phone issue is going anywhere anytime soon.
I'm a big time sports fan and played sports all the way through college and I find the face-painting, outfit wearing, cheer routine to be pretty damn lame. You want the stadium to be rocking because of the number of people there and the noise. I think the goal should be to find ways to use the current success of the program to get more people to the games. I also think you'll see some of the cell phone fans will keep the phones in their pockets and turn into some of your better fans if the winning continues. What do I know, I was once told by a fellow student at a Brown-Princeton basketball game that I was being too loud while she was trying to study (at a freaking college basketball game). I promptly told her what she could do with herself and got a stern talking to from my football coach who I didn't notice was sitting two rows behind me with a recruit. I understand passion but the Cameron Crazies routine is pretty gay!
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 11, 2005 13:30:19 GMT -5
There's a different between being a media whore (the Cameron Crazies, it now seems) and doing the face painting/wigs/whatever in order to get even more into the game-it isn't necessary to be a great fan, but there's nothing wrong with it.
Secondly, the difference, in my opinion, between college and pro sports is the fact that there are CHEERS in college sports. That's why I'd rather go to a college bball game than an NBA game any day of the week. When I say cheers, I mean things like "let's go hoyas", "we are georgetown", etc. If you can pull off the witty stuff (Duke's fans could for a while, but have lost it now) that's awesome. If not, well, then just stick with yelling "Defense Hoyas, Defense". Things like "rock chalk jayhawk" give their home arenas a distinctive feel that pro sports can never replicate with just a lot of white noise that comes from just yelling and screaming.
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Feb 11, 2005 13:34:32 GMT -5
For the people saying that we should just be happy that people are attending games and that they went through some times with horrible attendance, I would like to remind them that I experienced that first hand, so I know what you're talking about. It's not like I'm taking that for granted at all. Remember, my first year here just happened to be our worst season in like 30 years and attendance was absolutely horrible except for the Duke game.
I would also like to say that this is an internet message board and just because we say things on here doesn't mean that we are going to go around in reality and tell people to their faces that they are horrible fans in hopes of changing them. A lot of people say things on here that they wouldn't necessarily say in real life, otherwise everyone would just use their real names instead of screen names.
I'm 100% in agreement with everyone who says that we have to go about fostering an environment that makes it more likely that those fans will improve and that we will get more people to games, and that we do this in a very inclusive fashion.
However, that doesn't mean that we can't tell it like it is on a message board before we actually go about executing the plan. I know, its great that people are going to games and I really love that but just because someone shows up for a basketball game doesn't mean that they are fans. Let's remember the origin of this term.
Fanatic :A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.
marked by excessive enthusiasm for and intense devotion to a cause or idea
Now, I know for a fact that there are people who don't pay attention to the game, sit around talking on their cellphones or to their friends and don't cheer at all, and that is not a fan.
I don't think you guys understand what Im trying to say. Just because I state the truth that they are horrible fans doesn't mean that I feel we should just get rid of them. I want to do all the things that you are talking about and truly try to make the environment at games amazing.
When I envision doing this it is very much like FLHoya or True Hoya Blue suggest. However, I'm also not going to be too afraid to state the truth.
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Feb 11, 2005 13:49:07 GMT -5
There's a different between being a media whore (the Cameron Crazies, it now seems) and doing the face painting/wigs/whatever in order to get even more into the game-it isn't necessary to be a great fan, but there's nothing wrong with it. I agree that getting dressed up and painted up only to try and get on tv is complete stupidity. However, I absolutely hate the perception among a lot of people that anyone who dresses up, paints their face, wears a wig, etc. is a media whore. Most media whores don't do any of this. Media whores-Last year during the Duke game a bunch of girls swarmed the front row talking on their cellphones. They were trying to get on camera and were asking the people on the phone if they could see them on tv. Im sure some of the Cameron Crazies are like this, and maybe even a good portion. However, I dont like the assumptions that someone is a media whore simply because they paint themselves up. There's no reason to assume that someone in Cameron is a media whore just becaus they are covered in face paint. For some people, like me, doing this adds a tremendous amount to the atmosphere and makes the game that much more exciting. For me it has nothing to do with TV as I do this for every single game,and trust me, there were no TV cameras to be seen at the Citadel game. It seems a lot of people really can't stand the face-painters and wig wearers for some reason and I dont know why. Maybe its because of some bad experiences with people trying to get on camera, but you shouldn't generalize and assume that everyone is like that. In my experiences the people who have used face paint and worn wigs, etc. have been among the best fans and many others without this stuff trying to make their way up to the front rows have been the media whores, but I would never claim that you have to do all of the face painting, wig wearing etc. to be a good fan.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Feb 11, 2005 15:22:49 GMT -5
but I would never claim that you have to do all of the face painting, wig wearing etc. to be a good fan. Oh, but I think one Mr. David Puddy would disagree... What is that? I painted my face. You painted your face? Yeah. Why? You know, support the team. Well, you can't walk around like that. Why not? Because it's insane? Hey, you gotta let them know you're out there, this is the playoffs. LET'S GET IT ON!!! Alright!! Go Devils!! Go Devils!! Let's go Devils!! Cheers to the student face painters, that's my opinion as an alum who is too old and creaky for that sort of thing anymore. You are doing the Lord's work (or the Devil's work, I can't be sure, but it's all good either way).
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Feb 11, 2005 16:20:51 GMT -5
Secondly, the difference, in my opinion, between college and pro sports is the fact that there are CHEERS in college sports. That's why I'd rather go to a college bball game than an NBA game any day of the week. When I say cheers, I mean things like "let's go hoyas", "we are georgetown", etc. If you can pull off the witty stuff (Duke's fans could for a while, but have lost it now) that's awesome. If not, well, then just stick with yelling "Defense Hoyas, Defense". Things like "rock chalk jayhawk" give their home arenas a distinctive feel that pro sports can never replicate with just a lot of white noise that comes from just yelling and screaming. I agree with you about chants like the ones you've mentioned above. They are directly related to rooting on your team and to me are a basic need to have any type of home court advantage. But pre-game rehearsed chants that change on a game-by-game or week-by-week basis is not a sign of being a great fan. It is however, a sign of being a loser with too much time on your hands.
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