We need to be honest about our team

[the_way]

I know some folks are shocked about what happened last night against WVU.

But if you step back and think about it...you really shouldn't be.

You can't coach players to be what they aren't. You recruit toughness. You recruit guys who get physical. You recruit guys who are have a knack for rebounding.

We aren't a tough, physical team. We just aren't. And we will continue to get manhandled time and time again. Its open sesame in the paint against our team.

What we have now are players who fit a more finesse and "nice and neat" style of play, including Greg Monroe.

but we don't have a presence on defense, at least inside the paint. opposing teams can just "take our lunch" money on the boards and inside the paint and break us down mentally.

the mental part is understanble. A lot of guys are in new roles. Monroe is a freshman. Wright is a starter now. Clark is a freshman. Summers is counted on more now than ever. So that takes time.

But, we have some glaring deficiencies that can't be corrected with coaching, but mainly recruiting.

Is it possible to recruit guys that can fit into a Princeton offense, but at the same time have some hustle and bustle, bang and the ability to rebound?

[AltoSaxa]

Junkyard dog would have been perfect ... he would have been both.

[michaelgrahamfan]

You are completely correct. The one person who could be that enforcer is Vaughan, and he tries to do things he can not and should not be doing (e.g. dribbling and shooting). If even Duke is giving us a physical beating, it might be time for hoping for next year and some JuCo transfers.

[NCHoya]

Could not agree more Way, this team is just built deficient in certain areas. Not to say we do not have strengths, but we simply do not have the right personnel to compete in certain match-ups. We are a flawed team. I think some of us saw this coming back in october, but got caught up in the hype when we flattened UM and dominated UConn in their arena. But, as the season progresses, we can see the team is severely short on hustle players. We have one by my count, Wattad, problem is I have the same athleticism as he does! I can only hope JT3 breaks his pattern and brings in a few bangers, even Pat Jr would have been a gerat asset right now.

We are a pure finesse team, there should be no more sarcasm about ND and Brey on this board, we are the same team as ND without the great homecourt.

[michaelgrahamfan]

Amen

[DanMcQ]

Jan 23, 2009 9:08:11 GMT -5 NCHoya said:

We are a pure finesse team, there should be no more sarcasm about ND and Brey on this board, we are the same team as ND without the great homecourt.

Who is Harangody on this team?

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2009 9:37:44 GMT -5 DanMcQ said:

Jan 23, 2009 9:08:11 GMT -5 NCHoya said:

We are a pure finesse team, there should be no more sarcasm about ND and Brey on this board, we are the same team as ND without the great homecourt.

Who is Harangody on this team?

And our McAlarney clearly didn't show up last night.

[SFHoya99]

Jan 23, 2009 8:43:37 GMT -5 the_way said:

Is it possible to recruit guys that can fit into a Princeton offense, but at the same time have some hustle and bustle, bang and the ability to rebound?

Is this a serious question? Where were you the last four years?

This team is more than capable of rebounding and hustling and playing good D. We've seen them do it.

They just didn't do it versus WVU.

[AltoSaxa]

Where is your evidence that this team is "more than capable of rebounding ....?" Reality check.

[the_way]

Jan 23, 2009 9:45:25 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Jan 23, 2009 8:43:37 GMT -5 the_way said:

Is it possible to recruit guys that can fit into a Princeton offense, but at the same time have some hustle and bustle, bang and the ability to rebound?

Is this a serious question? Where were you the last four years?

This team is more than capable of rebounding and hustling and playing good D. We've seen them do it.

They just didn't do it versus WVU.

just didn't do it against WVU? lol

did you see the Big East tournament title game last year against Pitt?

we were a finesse team last year. its why we didn't get pass the 2nd round.

how about ND this year? how about Pitt this year? how about Duke this year?

this isn't just a one-time thing. we are what we are.

it aint pretty (unlike our style of play...which is the problem).

[sleepy]

This post might make sense after we played Pitt, when our lack of a "banger" and physical presence downlow is what cost us, or when we lost because we were a bad match-up. That was not the case yesterday. We didn't lose because we were a bad matchup with WVU, we lost because we didn't come to play and everyone played miserably.
This team doesn't need to add a certain type of player to be better or to be great. They just need to play better. You might have a case if we were playing well in our losses and still losing, but we lose when we play poorly, its as simple as that.
People are over complicating this loss, when every player on your team plays extremely poorly, you lose.

[Filo]

Just pure BS. If the guys play with some heart, play smart, and exeucute (i.e. do what they are supposed to be doing), they'll be fine. When they take down UConn in Hartford, everyone thinks the system is great and we can play with anyone.

They played a bad game. In fact, they have not been playing all that well for several games. Are they a finesse team? Yes. Will they get outrebounded? Sure. But, it is pure BS to say that it won't work and we need different players. What we need is for the players we have to actually play like they are supposed to play.

[sleepy]

Jan 23, 2009 9:50:33 GMT -5 the_way said:

Jan 23, 2009 9:45:25 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Is this a serious question? Where were you the last four years?

This team is more than capable of rebounding and hustling and playing good D. We've seen them do it.

They just didn't do it versus WVU.

just didn't do it against WVU? lol

did you see the Big East tournament title game last year against Pitt?

we were a finesse team last year. its why we didn't get pass the 2nd round.

how about ND this year? how about Pitt this year? how about Duke this year?

this isn't just a one-time thing. we are what we are.

it aint pretty (unlike our style of play...which is the problem).

Saying we lose because we are a finesse team then pointing out gamesa against Duke and Notre Dame is almost contradictory. Saying a "finesse" team can't beat a physical team is one thing, saying they can't be another "finesse" team just doesn't make sense, and shows the problem isn't the way we play, its how we are playing.

I agree with all those who say this type of thinking is ridiculous. The team is perfectly capable of rebounding, and playing better defense, right now they just aren't doing it. They played very bad, they lost. Simple as that. We don't need to come up with ways to "fix the system" or change recruiting, we just need to play better.

[KHoyaNYC]

Jan 23, 2009 10:00:46 GMT -5 Filo said:

Just pure BS. If the guys play with some heart, play smart, and exeucute (i.e. do what they are supposed to be doing), they'll be fine. When they take down UConn in Hartford, everyone thinks the system is great and we can play with anyone.

They played a bad game. In fact, they have not been playing all that well for several games. Are they a finesse team? Yes. Will they get outrebounded? Sure. But, it is pure BS to say that it won't work and we need different players. What we need is for the players we have to actually play like they are supposed to play.

Completely agree Filo. I'm not buying the line that because we lack physical toughness we can't win. That theory has been disproven time and time again by this team. Memories are short around here. Sure, we don't have a banger in the middle but that doesn't mean we aren't tough and we can't beat the elite teams in the nation. We've already proven we can.

That being said, we'll always have "match-up" problems against certain teams (see Pitt) but last night that was NOT the case. Last night was purely mental, we let some bad shooting spill over into the entire rest of our game and we folded like a house of cards. So we need to be more mentally tough on a consistent basis. More of playing like we did against Syracuse and UCONN and less like we did against WVU and Notre Dame. But that's mental. We overcome that (and I have the utmost confidence we will) and we'll be fine.

[alleninxis]

And what were we after the Syracuse game? The Uconn game? Memphis?

This is a team that is incredibly young and has played the most difficult schedule in the country.

What are team is that, and one who will be inconsistent at times.

[Hoya TMF]

Except we led all the way against UConn, and it wasn't like we out-toughed UConn. No one is saying we can't win games, but we are saying that when you look at the teams that have beaten us, there is a noticable lack of toughness in each of these games. And when we win, we win because of our precise offense and our finesse game. Its hard to argue with the system that JTIII in place, but this particular team does lack some toughness. What's a bit more troubling is that the couple of guys that were on last year's team that did give us a toughness edge have transferred. If you look at Julian, Jeremiah and Macklin, they all had some toughness, but they really lacked the skill to run our offense. Obviously, the jury is still out on Julian, but he really seems to struggle at times, as eveidenced by getting stripped by a big man at the top of the key last night and his difficulty making passes on backdoor cuts. Last night was the first time I've ever seen him complete one.

What really shows is that over the last year, we've lost a lot of players who did give us an edge. Jon, Pat and even Roy were pretty tough players both mentally and physically. They didn't get rattled when we were down and made good decisions with the ball. Pat was a perfect example of being a tough player, but demonstrating the skill necessary to run our offense. He blocked shots, rebounded and got in people's faces when the team needed an enforcer.

And that's why I'm really bothered by Sapp getting benched down the stretch. Although he has struggled with his shot, his shot selection has gotten better. He drilled an open three and only took one other shot. Still, he made crisp passes, played defense and didn't have any turnovers. In fact, he seemed to be the only guy that wanted to win last night. Sapp's experience is also something that cannot be discounted. And he seems to have been taking steps to get his shot back. He's not forcing things, but taking good shots when they come to him. What else would you want from your most experienced player?

We do need to be honest about our team, and its missing something. WVU didn't have any big man of note, but the book it sout on Monroe; if you get physical with him, it makes him uncomfortable. There's a reason why Samardo Samuels outplayed Greg whenever they faced off. Obviously Greg is a phenomenal talent, but that is definitely one of his major weaknesses. Look at last night and the Pitt game in particular. We've grown up a lot thi season, but we've got to grow up some more. And toughen up too.

[NCHoya]

Jan 23, 2009 9:37:44 GMT -5 DanMcQ said:

Jan 23, 2009 9:08:11 GMT -5 NCHoya said:

We are a pure finesse team, there should be no more sarcasm about ND and Brey on this board, we are the same team as ND without the great homecourt.

Who is Harangody on this team?

Good question, and that is why I get a little puzzled every time I read on this board the rampant criticism of Brey and Co about how they are so soft, do not play defense, have no athletes, etc. You could easily argue (and result supports it) they are more physical (Harangody) than us.

We need to look in the mirror, we play like ND. I am not suggesting you cannot find success being a finesse team, I am just saying it is time to recognize what we are right now.

[hometownhoya89]

speaking of knee-jerk reactions...

we're MUNCHKINS, we're a bunch of sophomores and freshman w/ a junior small forward and a senior who's slumping his career away.

a year to work out and bulk up will do wonders, we're just too weak at the moment. it's hard to replace the presence of a 4-year 7'2" center.

[the_way]

Jan 23, 2009 10:18:34 GMT -5 Hoya TMF said:

Except we led all the way against UConn, and it wasn't like we out-toughed UConn. No one is saying we can't win games, but we are saying that when you look at the teams that have beaten us, there is a noticable lack of toughness in each of these games. And when we win, we win because of our precise offense and our finesse game. Its hard to argue with the system that JTIII in place, but this particular team does lack some toughness. What's a bit more troubling is that the couple of guys that were on last year's team that did give us a toughness edge have transferred. If you look at Julian, Jeremiah and Macklin, they all had some toughness, but they really lacked the skill to run our offense. Obviously, the jury is still out on Julian, but he really seems to struggle at times, as eveidenced by getting stripped by a big man at the top of the key last night and his difficulty making passes on backdoor cuts. Last night was the first time I've ever seen him complete one.

What really shows is that over the last year, we've lost a lot of players who did give us an edge. Jon, Pat and even Roy were pretty tough players both mentally and physically. They didn't get rattled when we were down and made good decisions with the ball. Pat was a perfect example of being a tough player, but demonstrating the skill necessary to run our offense. He blocked shots, rebounded and got in people's faces when the team needed an enforcer.

And that's why I'm really bothered by Sapp getting benched down the stretch. Although he has struggled with his shot, his shot selection has gotten better. He drilled an open three and only took one other shot. Still, he made crisp passes, played defense and didn't have any turnovers. In fact, he seemed to be the only guy that wanted to win last night. Sapp's experience is also something that cannot be discounted. And he seems to have been taking steps to get his shot back. He's not forcing things, but taking good shots when they come to him. What else would you want from your most experienced player?

We do need to be honest about our team, and its missing something. WVU didn't have any big man of note, but the book it sout on Monroe; if you get physical with him, it makes him uncomfortable. There's a reason why Samardo Samuels outplayed Greg whenever they faced off. Obviously Greg is a phenomenal talent, but that is definitely one of his major weaknesses. Look at last night and the Pitt game in particular. We've grown up a lot thi season, but we've got to grow up some more. And toughen up too.

We are ><

You hit it right on the head.

Nobody is saying chuck the offense, or that we are no good.

toughness and rebounding are some essential traits for winning basketball. if we are going to act like we are a contending team, we need to be honest about the reality of that notion. And how far off we may be.

but last night's game against WVU really exposed are weaknesses. moreso than the Duke and Pitt games. we literally got punked by WVU when it mattered most down the stretch and we did not fight back, we walked away from the fight. Thats a sign of lacking mental toughness.

When our offense is clicking and we are hitting everything, we are great (see the Syracuse and UCONN games). But then again, what team isn't when everything is going their way. Problem is, most games everything won't go your way. you are going to have adversity during the course of the game. thats where toughness comes in. Thats what we are lacking. Thats where we need to grow.

[alleninxis]

Toughness???

We're talking about Vernon Macklin and toughness??