Offense and coaching

[AltoSaxa]

Let me broach the subject. Our offense depends on a lot of parts working well together. What do we have when some of those parts aren't clicking? For that matter what do we have when the majority of those parts aren't working? Does this coaching staff have a back up plan? When the cuts or passes aren't there what are the other options? When the 3s don't fall what are the other options? Are one or two players able to carry the team? Do they know how to carry a team or are they too focused on what the expected offensive set is to be? I am a big fan of our offense but how do you reconcile the extremes (UConn and WVa)? Good coaches adapt to what their players are giving them. I just didn't see it in this game and I don't see it in the coaching idealogy if you will.

[HoyaFanNY]

we don't have anything. we don't create turnovers off pressure. we don't pound the offensive glass. our solution is to chuck 3's and hope they go in.

[AltoSaxa]

Do we lose creativity just focusing on "the best shot" and "running 'our offense'"

[FrazierFanatic]

We don't run The Fist play enough.

[tashoya]

Ironically, my favorite play of the night was DaJuan's missed dunk (a la last year). Do THAT. DO SOMETHING!!! Scare someone. If you're not making outside shots.... do you A) continue to take and miss outside shots or, B) attempt to get to the rack. Apparently, it's A and A and A and A and A and B and A and A and A.....

[smittydakid]

I think a lot of teams have figured out the offensive. When it doesn't work, we look lost. We just run the clock down and take a deep 3. The main problem of have with the offensive is it hold backs individuality of a player. If Monroe has a mismatch, we won't continue to feed him. We'll run the o first,second and might give it to Monroe 3rd. It happen with Roy last year.

[AltoSaxa]

Our offense has been "labeled" It is now a brand and if it doesn't work this will have a negative impact on our future.

[mapei]

Jan 22, 2009 21:35:16 GMT -5 smittydakid said:

If Monroe has a mismatch, we won't continue to feed him. We'll run the o first,second and might give it to Monroe 3rd. It happen with Roy last year.

When Monroe misses layups and repeatedly lets the ball slip through his hands, it's hard to argue that he should get the ball even more than he now does.

[robbyt]

in a word, we are inflexible in our basic approach, no matter how many options there are within the Princeton offense.

I agree; at a basic level, it sucks to watch when a team made up of 5 great players is worse, not better, than the sum of its parts, because they are stifled by the offense.

So many great improvisers on the team, which makes it all the lamer. Everybody on this post is right.

-there will inevitably be some guy with amnesia who replies "where were you when the Princeton offense was winning" who forgets how boring and awkward many of our wins were last year and in previous years.

-this has always been a problem. Remember Ohio St. 2 years ago when nobody could take over, just kept looking for the defense to give them something, never found it, just sleepytime. They had our offense pinned, as do half the teams we play.

[adm1hoya]

Jan 22, 2009 21:41:17 GMT -5 mapei said:

Jan 22, 2009 21:35:16 GMT -5 smittydakid said:

If Monroe has a mismatch, we won't continue to feed him. We'll run the o first,second and might give it to Monroe 3rd. It happen with Roy last year.

When Monroe misses layups and repeatedly lets the ball slip through his hands, it's hard to argue that he should get the ball even more than he now does.

Thank you, someone with stones to call out Monroe. There we times when he played SOFT; taking it up strong underneath instead of trying to finesse everything and holding his man off while receiving the entry pass. And for god's sake he's 6'11" 250lbs, he and DaJaun have to hit the boards much harder.

[Madgesdiq]

Jan 22, 2009 21:48:26 GMT -5 robbyt said:

in a word, we are inflexible in our basic approach, no matter how many options there are within the Princeton offense.

I agree; at a basic level, it sucks to watch when a team made up of 5 great players is worse, not better, than the sum of its parts, because they are stifled by the offense.

So many great improvisers on the team, which makes it all the lamer. Everybody on this post is right.

-there will inevitably be some guy with amnesia who replies "where were you when the Princeton offense was winning" who forgets how boring and awkward many of our wins were last year and in previous years.

-this has always been a problem. Remember Ohio St. 2 years ago when nobody could take over, just kept looking for the defense to give them something, never found it, just sleepytime. They had our offense pinned, as do half the teams we play.

Hard to believe that you watch the same game I did because I think that the team is at its worst when Wright and Sapp start freelancing.

Against Ohio St. we were in the game against the #1 team in the country until under 4 minutes left. Not sure I get the analogy either.

[RBHoya]

When our outside shot's aren't falling we don't have much offensively. We still don't really have anybody who can sort of "throw the team on his back" so to speak, and we for sure don't have a true threat in the post.

When our outside shots aren't falling everybody flips and says the offense has to go. When they are falling everybody starts talking about Big East 3peats and Final 4s. I just wish we had a little more diversity in our portfolio, if you will.

[hoyacrazy]

The offense is ok. Coach, Greg and DaJuan all need to start demanding that the team understand who the top scoring options are. We do have a balanced attack, but in crunch time Greg or DaJuan have to be the main options, or at least touch the ball and open things for others. Example, tonight after Greg lead a run to get us back to 44-42, we came down and jacked up 3's on 3 straight possessions, looking for the big crowd reaction and the lead, neither of them got a touch. The lead nor the reaction never came and the lead ballooned back to 8 game over.

I love Coach, but just once I would like to see him meet some of the guys at about the paint area leading into a TO and challenge someone to step up, the way big John did back in the day. The rebounding is pitiful. After we give up a offensive board and put back Coach needs to use a TO and publicly challenge them to rebound the ball. Maybe he does this in practice but I would like to witness it. These guys are very talented but they need to get tough. I have been a Hoya fan since 1977 and these guys can be glad they did not play for Big John. This is the BIG EAST guys! You are in the wrong league to play soft around the rim.

[AltoSaxa]

RB when the 3s were falling like they did at UConn I said great what an offense. After the win I questioned what are the chances that this team will run on all cylinders like this again. That was my concern and remains my concern.

[hoyabinx]

Jan 22, 2009 21:48:26 GMT -5 robbyt said:

in a word, we are inflexible in our basic approach, no matter how many options there are within the Princeton offense.

I agree; at a basic level, it sucks to watch when a team made up of 5 great players is worse, not better, than the sum of its parts, because they are stifled by the offense.

So many great improvisers on the team, which makes it all the lamer. Everybody on this post is right.

-there will inevitably be some guy with amnesia who replies "where were you when the Princeton offense was winning" who forgets how boring and awkward many of our wins were last year and in previous years.

-this has always been a problem. Remember Ohio St. 2 years ago when nobody could take over, just kept looking for the defense to give them something, never found it, just sleepytime. They had our offense pinned, as do half the teams we play.

Its funny, I think the exact opposite. First, I don't care how we win, whether its bored or awkward is the last thing I care about. Second, I don't think the team is RUNNING the offense. I said it after the game, "When was the last time they ran the offense to the point of a shot clock violation?" There may have been one at Duke, but it hardly ever happens. They hardly ever explore all the options within the 35 seconds. Instead of doing that, the player with the ball that gets pressured the most, stops the passing and starts the individual move to the basket, breaking down the play into something that ends sometimes brilliantly but most times with a turnover, a missed contested layup, or a 3 in the corner off the pass. Personally, I think the awkward 7'2'' guy inexplicably at the top of the key with the ball, for example, works better over the course of a game, or over the course of a season, than what they have been running.

Monroe understands this. Tonight he got pressured, couldn't find an open guy and then immediately realized the opportunity within the offense. He finds out where the backdoor pass is, which tonight worked beautifully (twice) to the "unathletic" kid nobody likes but who chooses to run the offense--Omar Wattad.


(quotes emphasize sarcasm)

[RockawayHoya]

The offense isn't what's broken. What happens is when we get down by 8-10 points in the 2nd half, the tendency of our team this year has been to panic and jack up terrible shots early in the shot clock. Wright and Summers are the worst offenders of this. Everyone remembers how poised our team was against UNC. What did that team do when they got down 8-10 points with 6 minutes to go? Be patient. Run the offense. Get high percentage shots and convert them.

What has been killing us has been the defense. JTIII has to hammer it home: give up open looks on defense because of laziness, and you'll sit next to him. There can be no exception.

[whatmaroon]

Jan 22, 2009 22:10:27 GMT -5 AltoSaxa said:

RB when the 3s were falling like they did at UConn I said great what an offense. After the win I questioned what are the chances that this team will run on all cylinders like this again. That was my concern and remains my concern.

Ding ding ding! There's a reason Lavin's breakdown at halftime of last night's game was kicking the ball out for the open 3-that's a lot of what the offense runs around. And, look at who's shooting the 3 compared to last year-Summers is up in terms of accuracy, probably because he's taking the ball inside more, but Freeman and particularly Jessie are off last year's personal rate in terms of 3-point accuracy, and Jason Clark has replaced PE2 as the player who makes you groan when he shoots from beyond the arc. When the outside shot isn't falling, like it did at Pitt last year or tonight, this team will struggle offensively.

[SFHoya99]

Gee, shocker, we lose a game, and the "scrap the offense" crew comes out. Where were you during the Final Four?

Let me ask a few questions...

What awesome offense works when players turn the ball over without any pressure? Does Jason Clark not commit a four point foul when he's being creative? In what iso-playground offense is there less dribbling and ballhandling? Does Monroe lose three passes down low simply because the passer was in our offense? Is it our offense that makes him miss layup after layup?

Heck, what offense works when outside shots aren't falling? I missed that one. Aside from having a dominant big man, which is more of a personnel thing, does Duke's offense work without the three? Please, tell me this mystical offense that NEVER fails.

No offense works without execution. Tonight was all about execution.

Oh, and that play that you guys loved from DaJuan? Total result of spacing and team play. We were spaced well along the perimeter and Truck Bryant or someone was rotating and basically rotated one person too far, leaving the middle open. Summers read it properly and took it to the hoop, but he wasn't freestyling. It was just a huge error by WVU.

I fail to see what hurts about taking good shots. Tonight was about decision making and execution -- we were running the offense to perfection to Greg when we made our run. We were freestyling when we took quick threes.

If we had kept running the offense, we might have won.

[hoyalawyer]

the offense is WHY we win. Its when we abandon it that we start f-ing up the game. If the players on the floor stuck with the offense it would desimate teams, but they don't. Madges you got it right on as did you binx. For the record, I like the "unathletic kid". He is a coaches player and it shows in his discipline. Most consistent player i think we've had this year; he doesn't really wow you, but he gives you solid minutes every time he gets out there. I can't think of the last game he didn't draw AT LEAST one offensive foul. Silver-lining from tonight's game I guess

[SirSaxa]

Jan 22, 2009 22:43:20 GMT -5 RockawayHoya said:

The offense isn't what's broken. What happens is when we get down by 8-10 points in the 2nd half, the tendency of our team this year has been to panic and jack up terrible shots early in the shot clock. Wright and Summers are the worst offenders of this. Everyone remembers how poised our team was against UNC. What did that team do when they got down 8-10 points with 6 minutes to go? Be patient. Run the offense. Get high percentage shots and convert them.

What has been killing us has been the defense. JTIII has to hammer it home: give up open looks on defense because of laziness, and you'll sit next to him. There can be no exception.

Yes, Rockaway. That is it.
1. We don't have the poise we had with Wallace on the floor for the last 4 years.
2. We had a bad game. It happens. UNC lost two in a row. Pitt lost. UCONN lost. Everyone loses.

Last night was the first game we lost that we shouldn't have. It hasn't happened often in the past 5 years. But it did last night.

We still have a great team and a great coach. And we are 3 and 3 in conference.
THere's a long way to go. We'll get better.