the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 4, 2005 12:07:51 GMT -5
Joe Hoya, I would like to commend your city of Philadelphia for booing the hell out of Kobe during the All-Star game a few years ago. Best. Moment. Ever. He is a punk who no one seems to like. Name a teammate of his who ever says anything positive. Can you? I mean, you would think that if it was all ridiculous, Shaq-fueled, media-driven bias, someone would step up and defend him...right? He acted like a petulent child in the whole LA-Shaq-Phil scenario and yes, I am going to take Phil's word over the blah blah blah of Kobe's incessant blah's. The man is a phony. Not to mention that he is a rapist, who is only avoiding jail time because a judge in CO allowed rape-shield laws to be systematically dismantled -- to the point where the victim was intimidated off the stand. Sure, he is a talented player, and he used to say all the right things, but now that his dirty laundry has been exposed to the public, and his "nice guy" image is blown what is there to like about the guy. He plays a selfish game, can't carry a team of legitimate players and seems to drive coaches out of town. Wake me up when he's traded to the Trailblazers with Darius and T-Mac and Francise and Vinny Carter...boy that would be awesome. God, if only they would also live in the same house and have it filmed 24 hours a day. I think it would be three days before Kobe was shived in the lockeroom. First of all, saying Kobe is a rapist is erroneous. This is alleged, and has not been proven in a court of law. Therefore he is not a rapist. Believe what you want to believe. In terms of the "nice guy" image. If you were naive enough to believe he was perfect, then you are on another planet. Nobody on this planet is perfect. Kobe never changed. YOUR own perception of him changed. Whose fault is that. Yours or his? You are the type where you believe everything you see on tv and don't read between the lines. You ask his teammates on this current team, and they love Kobe. They wouldn't have the winning record they have now in the Western Conference, if it weren't for Kobe and his leadership. In fact if he was that bad of a malcontent. If he was that bad of a cancer, how come he has 3 rings. How come they didn't just leave him off the playoff roster along with JR Rider in the 2000-2001 season. How come Shaq couldn't win it when he had Penny Hardaway. How come Shaq couldn't win a title before Kobe and Phil Jackson came on the scene. If he was that bad of a teammate and player, why would Phil come back and want to coach him. Tell me that. I'm not saying Kobe is this sweet angel. But to sit here and listen to garbage about how he is a bad teammate and loser is nonsense.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Feb 4, 2005 13:53:20 GMT -5
Well, there are lots of grains of truth in this thread, but I don't think anyone has it quite right (and I don't profess to know the truth, because I haven't spent time in the Laker locker room with the team). But here's my two cents, anyway:
1. No one outside of that hotel room will ever know the truth about the alleged rape. We're all free to believe what we want, but this isn't OJ. Kobe could be telling the truth. The girl's a skank. But she could also be telling the truth.
2. Prior the the rape charges, Kobe had always portrayed himself as the next coming of David Robinson. We heard repeatedly from him that all he cared about was his family. Oh, really? At a minimum, Kobe was exposed as a first class hypocrite, and this disillusioned a lot of people. The $4 million ring didn't help.
3. Way is right about Shaq, but wrong about Jackson. Jackson knew that Buss wouldn't meet those salary demands, and he only started making them after he picked up the loud and clear message that Buss didn't really want him back.
4. Way is also right about the respective popularity of Shaq and Kobe in LA. Kobe was by far more popular (not that Shaq wasn't popular - he was), because lots of fans had grown tired of Shaq's being constantly out of shape. On the other hand, if not for the Shaq-Kobe feud - and there's enough blame for that to go around - I think Buss would have kept Shaq as well as Kobe. And I am not at all convinced that he made the wrong decision in the long run. We need to wait 2 or 3 years to see if Buss was right or wrong.
5. Kobe's aloofness as a teammate has been legendary. Supposedly he has tried to change that this year. I have no idea what's going on in the Laker locker room this season, and I doubt that anyone else on this board does either.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 4, 2005 14:18:23 GMT -5
Kobe was more popular than Shaq.
The Lakers have paid Shaq and Kobe repeatedly and would have done so again. Kobe forced them to choose. They chose Kobe.
Phil Jackson was driven off by Kobe. He wrote a friggin book about it.
Lamar Odom hates Kobe.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 4, 2005 14:34:32 GMT -5
Kobe was more popular than Shaq. The Lakers have paid Shaq and Kobe repeatedly and would have done so again. Kobe forced them to choose. They chose Kobe. Phil Jackson was driven off by Kobe. He wrote a friggin book about it. Lamar Odom hates Kobe. Lamar Odom does not hate Kobe. Stop repeating what you heard on ESPN. They are good friends. Why would you spread a lie like that? Phil wrote the book to make money, because he wasn't making any more money coaching since he was "driven away", only to be thinking in less than year's time of "driving back" to a team and player that "drove" him away. Please! If you didn't know by now, ESPN is not the bible when it comes to sports and insider information. So, you don't have to repeat erroneous statements made by the network. Got it? Don't be fooled by propaganda.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 4, 2005 14:41:02 GMT -5
Lamar Odom does not hate Kobe. Stop repeating what you heard on ESPN. They are good friends. So you've discounted "news" sources and a first hand account written by a the coach....What sources are you citing?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 4, 2005 15:06:05 GMT -5
Exactly, Cambridge. The only place I've heard of Phil going back is...ESPN! Who actually had the idiocy to say Shaq may go back.
Lamar Odom v Kobe is all over the place, and not on ESPN. It's Kobe's team, and Lamar doesn't get the ball when Kobe is on the court. Hate is probably a strong word, but no one liked Kobe on the old Lakers and I doubt anyone really likes him now.
Why the heck do you love Kobe so much, the_way? He's like rooting for the ACC.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 4, 2005 15:24:06 GMT -5
Exactly, Cambridge. The only place I've heard of Phil going back is...ESPN! Who actually had the idiocy to say Shaq may go back. Lamar Odom v Kobe is all over the place, and not on ESPN. It's Kobe's team, and Lamar doesn't get the ball when Kobe is on the court. Hate is probably a strong word, but no one liked Kobe on the old Lakers and I doubt anyone really likes him now. Why the heck do you love Kobe so much, the_way? He's like rooting for the ACC. Rooting for Kobe is not like rooting for the ACC. With the exception of Allen Iverson (and Tracy McGrady), there is no better complete player at the guard position than Kobe. Never ever get that confused. Rooting for the ACC, is the lowest of the low. I'd rather root for Syracuse or UCONN than root for the ACC. Kobe gets a long fine with the players. They can't wait till he gets back from injury. I don't know what you are talking about. The Kobe vs. Lamar is not true. Nice try.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 4, 2005 15:30:40 GMT -5
Kobe has a tremendous game. (Although no one has noted his predictable FG% drop with Shaq gone).
So does UNC. Doesn't mean they are nice people or I root for them.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 4, 2005 15:34:36 GMT -5
Kobe has a tremendous game. (Although no one has noted his predictable FG% drop with Shaq gone). So does UNC. Doesn't mean they are nice people or I root for them. Yeah his FG % has dipped (~ 40 %), which is not suprising. But I think the Lakers are where they should be in the Western Conference with the players they have in terms of W-L record. Don't remind me about UNC. I think I'll break out into hives if they win the National title.
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HoyaSox04
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Post by HoyaSox04 on Feb 4, 2005 15:43:41 GMT -5
Rooting for Kobe is not like rooting for the ACC. With the exception of Allen Iverson (and Tracy McGrady), there is no better complete player at the guard position than Kobe. Never ever get that confused. Rooting for the ACC, is the lowest of the low. I'd rather root for Syracuse or UCONN than root for the ACC. Kobe gets a long fine with the players. They can't wait till he gets back from injury. I don't know what you are talking about. The Kobe vs. Lamar is not true. Nice try. It's baffling that you're such a Kobe apologist. I mean, sure, he's a great player, I will give him that. But there is no way that you can deny he has had his best numbers when the big fella was in the key, usually being double-teamed and taking huge amounts of pressure off Kobe. When Shaq was healthy, Kobe NEVER faced a double team, and look at his production numbers. The Lakers struggled over the last few years when Shaq was injured; I believe that they were under .500 in the games that Shaq did not play in over the last three years. Now, I'm not saying Kobe is not talented, because he is. You can even say he is in the upper echelon of players in the NBA. But I can think of at least 5 other players I would start a team with besides him. Also, you claim that all this "slandering" of Kobe is being done only by ESPN, and this is where all of the nation gets its sports news from. You are totally discounting every single news source in LA, in California and across the country that has covered the lakers in one fashion or another; Kobe's feud with Phil and Shaq was very well documented by MULTIPLE sources, including Phil HIMSELF! Why would Phil lie in his book? It makes no sense, its not like the man has anything to prove. He gets nothing out of writing what he did about Kobe. And your claim that the Kobe v. Lamar story is untrue: um, do you reside in the Lakers locker room? What are you, the towel boy or something? It's been very well documented that almost NONE of Kobe's teammates get along with him at all, because he's an arrogant and petulant little *%#$. If you dont believe what everyone has been saying, there are three future Hall of Famers named Shaquille O'Neal, Karl Malone and Gary Payton who would LOVE to argue with you. Rooting for Kobe isn't like rooting for the ACC. It's more like rooting for Alex Rodriguez.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 4, 2005 16:54:36 GMT -5
Eh, you are putting words for in my mouth. I'm talking about this year's team. Karl Malone and Gary Payton aren't on this year's team, if you didn't know by now. Like I said before, Kobe gets along fine with his teammates and gets a bad wrap. The Lakers did not break up because of Kobe. The Lakers broke up because it was time to rebuild, and if I'm not mistaken Shaq asked to be traded. He wanted more money, they said no. Okay trade me. Phil wanted more money, they said no. Okay, Phil is gone. How does Phil and Shaq wanting more money have to do with Kobe forcing them out. Where is Kobe in this? Now all of sudden Kobe is so unbearable to deal with, yet you won 3 championships with him. And for Shaq, his only championships. Yet, for Phil, Kobe is so uncontrollable, yet you wouldn't mind coaching him again. I don't know. If the man is that hard to deal with, they wouldn't have won 3 championships with him, and you wouldn't want to coach him again. Don't let the propaganda fool you.
Kobe and Alex Rodiriguez? Please. Alex Rodriguez is Tracy McGrady. Not Kobe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2005 17:07:56 GMT -5
Mystery solved. Apparently, the_way = Jerry Buss.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Feb 4, 2005 17:10:58 GMT -5
Well, I have to jump in again, because, Way, I would also like to know how you know that Kobe and Odom get along so well. As I said before, I'm not saying they don't, just that I don't pretend to know.
Kobe's shooting percentage is unquestionably down in part due to Shaq's absence (and also due in part to his ball hogging). On the other hand, I've seen a number of games this year where Kobe's shooting was just plan off, even though he was getting numerous good looks. Perhaps it's the pressure of thinking he needs to carry the team.
From last year's team, Kobe supposedly got along well with Derek Fisher (everyone did) and Malone. The relationship with Malone only blew up as a result of the Vanessa fiasco.
Oh, one thing I forgot. I would say Phil is as likely to come back and coach the Lakers as Hee Seop Choi is to hit 40 home runs.
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HoyaSox04
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Post by HoyaSox04 on Feb 4, 2005 17:12:22 GMT -5
I'd venture to say Phil's return is as likely as David McCarty winning both the AL Cy Young Award and the AL Silver Slugger award...
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 4, 2005 17:39:38 GMT -5
Rooting for Kobe isn't like rooting for the ACC. It's more like rooting for Alex Rodriguez. Sox, I actually wrote the same line in one of my previous posts, and then decided to cut it at the last minutes, because I thought it would bring some Yankee A-fraud appologists out of the woodwork...but I see them as very similar characters.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 4, 2005 17:48:42 GMT -5
Sox, I actually wrote the same line in one of my previous posts, and then decided to cut it at the last minutes, because I thought it would bring some Yankee A-fraud appologists out of the woodwork...but I see them as very similar characters. Let me preface this comment so that no one thinks I'm an A-fraud apologist, b/c I hate A-Rod. Anyway, the A-Rod/Kobe analogy doesn't work that well b/c A-Rod hasn't won anything (and had a BIG HAND in making sure the Yankees didn't last year). And yeah, I know that Shaq was a huge part, but the analogy still doesn't quite work, simply b/c A-Rod doesn't win enough.
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Feb 4, 2005 17:56:13 GMT -5
C'mon, don't count Big Choi out.
Although I would have liked his chances better in Wrigley than at Dodgers Stadium.
Never thought He Chop Wood would make it to this board unless I brought him up...
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 4, 2005 18:00:28 GMT -5
More about their attitudes vs the personas they like to project.
A-Rod and Kobe like to say all the right things but in the end it's all about them and many of their teammates can't stand them despite their incredible talent.
For example, do you really think Jeter likes A-Rod? I mean seriously...
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 4, 2005 18:39:08 GMT -5
More about their attitudes vs the personas they like to project. A-Rod and Kobe like to say all the right things but in the end it's all about them and many of their teammates can't stand them despite their incredible talent. For example, do you really think Jeter likes A-Rod? I mean seriously... Good point-when you put it like that, I definately think that's the best analogy.
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angus
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Post by angus on Feb 5, 2005 12:33:24 GMT -5
Like Rooter, I reside in LA and have been a Laker fan for my entire life. Regarding Kobe and Shaq, one thing that no one has mentioned is that immediately after the Finals last year, Shaq DEMANDED to be traded. This followed his pre-season, on-the-court screaming at Dr. Buss: "Are you going to f-ing pay me now." I am not discounting the fact that Kobe and Shaq did not get along. Having said that, I believe that Shaq's unwillingness to take any blame, his lack of conditioning, his trade demand, and his high salary demands forced Dr. Buss to trade Shaq at a time when he still had some value.
The whole Kobe/Shaq/Phil fiasco has soured me immensely to professional basketball and, to a larger degree, professional sports. As an LA fan who moved to the area as a baby from Wisconsin, I grew up watching and adopting all LA teams (stayed with the Packers, who are my equal passion to the Hoyas). For my sports appetite, times are tough. McCourt/DePodesta have changed the entire fabric of a likeable Dodger team. Greed has killed hockey, literally. Shaq/Kobe/Phil have turned me off to the Lakers so much that I have not watched one minute of the Lakers this season. I guess the good thing about this is that it has given me more time to devote to watching and following the Hoyas.
Beat Rutgers. Please.
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