The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Dec 7, 2008 0:52:49 GMT -5
I thought this would be worthy of its own thread. He was one of the best pitchers the game has seen, and a real class act.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Dec 7, 2008 1:11:18 GMT -5
HOF'er?
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Post by sleepyjackson21 on Dec 7, 2008 3:39:23 GMT -5
Not even a question. Should be first ballot. The guy won over 350 games and won 4 Cy Youngs.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Dec 7, 2008 3:40:30 GMT -5
Is this a serious question? First ballot, guaranteed. |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 7, 2008 3:58:20 GMT -5
Not even close to a question. Maddux is a Top 5 pitcher post WWII. Period, and maybe better. |
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Dec 7, 2008 7:58:15 GMT -5
No, not a serious question. Unlike Mussina, there's no doubt this guy belongs in the Hall of Fame.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 8, 2008 13:36:40 GMT -5
I totally concur. Maddux is a first ballot HOFer. Granted, I am a bit biased, but I absolutely loved Maddux. I started collecting his rookie cards anytime I could find them for a decent price. I think I've got around 25 of them. For that stretch in the 90's he was the best there was, but what really made him stand out was that he didn't look that impressive. He didn't overpower guys. He never struck out tons of guys, but he was so adept at making you swing and hit the baseball somewhere other than on the sweet spot. I don't know how many double play dribbling grounders I saw him induce right up the middle, either to himself or one of the middle infielders. He was awesome.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 9, 2008 11:47:12 GMT -5
Following up on that line of thinking, I thought it was amazing that of all the pitchers with 300 or more wins, Greg Maddux is 1st in Strikeout to Walk ratio. For someone that doesn't overpower you, that stat is remarkable and a tribute to his tremendous control.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 9, 2008 12:23:44 GMT -5
One of the weirder myths about Greg Maddux is that he didn't strike people out or throw hard.
When Maddux came up, he threw 95 or so for the Cubs, but his control wasn't there. So he dialed it back a bit to 91-93 and developed that ridiculous control. He became Greg Maddux that way.
But in his heyday, he wasn't throwing below 90, as some people like to pretend. He wasn't tossing at 96 or anything, but people like to portray him as a rich man's Bob Tewksbury.
He had another advantage that I never hear mentioned: his fastball is basically a screwball.
He throws righty, and most righties' natural movement and the movement on their breaking stuff would break left -- that is, away from the throwing hand. A screwball breaks towards the throwing hand, but it's really hard on the throwing arm. Try rotating your wrist towards the inside of your body so your palm faces outward and you'll see why.
As a result, no one throws a screwball anymore. We had Fernando and I think maybe oen or two others, but what used to be one of the dominant pitches of the deadball era (think Christy Mathewson) got left behind for the slider.
So no one sees that kind of movement. When Maddux throws that pitch on the outside corner to a righty and it cuts back over the plate -- no one see that from a righty. It's tough to prepare for.
You know the one other player with movement kinda like that? Mariano Rivera's cutter. He uses it inside on lefties to devastating effect.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 9, 2008 14:18:59 GMT -5
One of the weirder myths about Greg Maddux is that he didn't strike people out or throw hard. When Maddux came up, he threw 95 or so for the Cubs, but his control wasn't there. So he dialed it back a bit to 91-93 and developed that ridiculous control. He became Greg Maddux that way. But in his heyday, he wasn't throwing below 90, as some people like to pretend. He wasn't tossing at 96 or anything, but people like to portray him as a rich man's Bob Tewksbury. He had another advantage that I never hear mentioned: his fastball is basically a screwball. He throws righty, and most righties' natural movement and the movement on their breaking stuff would break left -- that is, away from the throwing hand. A screwball breaks towards the throwing hand, but it's really hard on the throwing arm. Try rotating your wrist towards the outside of your body and you'll see why. As a result, no one throws a screwball anymore. We had Fernando and I think maybe oen or two others, but what used to be one of the dominant pitches of the deadball era (think Christy Mathewson) got left behind for the slider. So no one sees that kind of movement. When Maddux throws that pitch on the outside corner to a righty and it cuts back over the plate -- no one see that from a righty. It's tough to prepare for. You know the one other player with movement kinda like that? Mariano Rivera's cutter. He uses it inside on lefties to devastating effect. Excellent point on his movement. Even more important was the fact that he could seemingly effortlessly decide just how much movement and don't be fooled: he could also tail it away from a righty in more traditional fashion as well. As for his power, I don't remember him throwing 96, and I didn't mean to suggest he was a Jamie Moyer type. But he was never the Randy Johnson, Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens kind of guy. That's all I was saying. To me, he was at his best NOT when the batter was swinging and missing, but rather when he was either called out looking or taking a huge cut only to hit a dribbler back to the mound for an easy out (or two!). |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 9, 2008 16:48:30 GMT -5
I don't really know how to answer this. Of course his stuff was not as dominate as say, Pedro Martinez', but he was a better swing and miss guy than 99% of pitchers out there. Location made him great, but he could have never been what he was without getting a lot of misses.
The other thing that he was fantastic at, and still is, is fielding.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 9, 2008 16:58:25 GMT -5
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 9, 2008 17:29:38 GMT -5
I don't really know how to answer this. Of course his stuff was not as dominate as say, Pedro Martinez', but he was a better swing and miss guy than 99% of pitchers out there. Location made him great, but he could have never been what he was without getting a lot of misses. The other thing that he was fantastic at, and still is, is fielding. My point wasn't on any particular batter. Obviously striking out the batter swinging is about as good as you can do. My point was that he was at his best overall when he was getting strikeouts looking and dribblers up the middle. When he was "on," he would have 3 or 4 innings in a row with nothing but those kinds of outs. The key was his movement. As someone else mentioned, the unusual nature and severity of his movement caused batters to give up on a lot of balls. Also, it generated a lot of mis off the bat. Those are both really factors of the same quality that he possessed in amazing amounts. |
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