DrumsGoBang
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Post by DrumsGoBang on Dec 4, 2008 22:37:13 GMT -5
A few responses to Bando: 1. Yes, the plan is to make Tyson's a dense city. I'll believe it when I see it. 2. If we build the silver line before we build the downtown line, there will be problems. Big problems. 3. Yes, it's the military's fault, but the military's going to do it. And you'll have lots of people on Route 1 yelling at each other. It will be a Grade A mess. 4. It's a $60 cab ride to Pentagon City. Most business travelers will take a cab. And it's strange, because another option exists already, which is the bus from either Rosslyn or West Falls Church. But no one considers that option, because it's not a rail car. 5. Don't pull the "big lawn and driveway" line on me. I have never owned a car. I used to live in Fairfax County, where Metro was a giant fail in getting anywhere, and where commutes for work were usually tortuous. And that was a thirty minute ride on one line. The Silver Line will be worse. Everyone who lives in one of those apartments will have a car, because you can't rely on public transit to get you to and from the city, especially on the weekend. So you'll essentially just raise density when it can't be supported. The Washington area desperately needs an improved public transit system (note that this doesn't mean just money). Until then, adding the Silver Line is making a bad system worse. 1. You should already be able to see it since it's happened everywhere else the Metro has been built. Just look at the development along the Orange line. It's even going to happen up in Rockville and along the Red line too. Montgomery county is going to plan walkable villages all along the red line and it's already happening at Rockville town center. 2. I would like a new downtown line, but this can get done now and finally has the funding. The downtown line will be great, but tunneling in the city will cost twice what the silver line is costing. Sure ridership will go up, but that is good thing. More revenue for the system, less traffic jams around 66 and 495. Better for the environment. If the only bad thing is your train is more crowded in the morning, then deal with it. More people on the train doesn't cause the system to stop working...the sucky trains do, but that has nothing to do with the silver line. 3. Ft Belvior and The New Walter Reed are going to create a drastic shift in commutes and traffic patterns all around. The miltary was stupid not to build near transit or add transit as part of the plan. Maybe a new Administration can address this. There are ideas to bring light rail to the area. 4. $60 for a cab ride is not longer going to be expenced in this economy by smart companies. Additionally, a lot of travelers actually fly into Dullas since it's closer to were they will be working. There are a lot of businesses in Reston, Tysons, etc. The subway won't just be for long commutes but short hops between Reston and Tysons, etc and not just for business travelers, but for normal people who work and live out there and don't take cabs places. 5. Why can't you rely on public transportation? Sure there were a few times it broke...but guess what, there are things like buses. Sure the are filled with crazy people..and gasp minorities, but they also take you places. Also, I can tell you that my car has broke more times then the Metro. |
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Dec 4, 2008 22:41:04 GMT -5
I took the Tube from Heathrow into the city. I wasn't pressed for time, so it worked nicely. On the way back I had an early morning flight, so I decided to save time with the Heathrow Express. If I traveled out of LHR regularly I'd use the Heathrow Connect, but this was a one-time thing so I used the Express.
Coming back into Dulles, it was a miserable day and I didn't feel like spending $50+ for a cab, and I didn't want to wait for half an hour in the cold and rain for the Metrobus. My only option was to pay around $10 for the bus to West Falls Church, then take a long Metro ride into DC. In my mind that bus was more of a ripoff than the Heathrow Express.
Outside of LaGuardia, I think Dulles is the only major airport on the East Coast that doesn't have rail access. An Amtrak link would be nice, but Union Station is on the wrong side of the city.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 4, 2008 23:42:15 GMT -5
From Drums...
"1. You should already be able to see it since it's happened everywhere else the Metro has been built. Just look at the development along the Orange line. It's even going to happen up in Rockville and along the Red line too. Montgomery county is going to plan walkable villages all along the red line and it's already happening at Rockville town center. "
I used to live at Franconia-Springfield. There is nothing down there. It is not walkable.
"2. I would like a new downtown line, but this can get done now and finally has the funding. The downtown line will be great, but tunneling in the city will cost twice what the silver line is costing. Sure ridership will go up, but that is good thing. More revenue for the system, less traffic jams around 66 and 495. Better for the environment. If the only bad thing is your train is more crowded in the morning, then deal with it. More people on the train doesn't cause the system to stop working...the sucky trains do, but that has nothing to do with the silver line."
More ridership? The system is already dangerously crowded at Rosslyn. If you work down on the Blue Line, transferring to the Orange is awful. Awful to the point where trains can't let anyone on at Clarendon. This isn't "waaah, I want my seat", this is "two trains passed me and I couldn't get on".
"3. Ft Belvior and The New Walter Reed are going to create a drastic shift in commutes and traffic patterns all around. The miltary was stupid not to build near transit or add transit as part of the plan. Maybe a new Administration can address this. There are ideas to bring light rail to the area."
Don't bet on it. BRAC is famous for being nonpartisan.
"5. Why can't you rely on public transportation? Sure there were a few times it broke...but guess what, there are things like buses. Sure the are filled with crazy people..and gasp minorities, but they also take you places. Also, I can tell you that my car has broke more times then the Metro."
Can we cut it out with the "if you don't like public transport, you don't like minorities" stuff?
I used to rely on Metro to get into the city on the weekend. The ride itself was thirty minutes to Crystal City.
But it was never thirty minutes. Metro ran every twenty minutes if you were lucky. About one-tenth of the time, Metro was single-tracked. And getting to Crystal City took an hour (my favorite was when they closed down the track between National and Braddock Road and ran buses - and the trains on Monday ran SLOWER than usual.
I loved the Fairfax Connector, which was infamous for being on time markedly more often than Metro, despite the fact that Connector ran in traffic and made numerous stops. But they run once an hour during rush hour. I'd heavily favor upping bus frequency, but people still have an aversion to it.
I now walk to work, and it's a godsend - I don't have to deal with a broken road system or a broken Metro whose elected board doesn't ride the system and whose corporate culture resists FOIA requests and who spent my taxpayer money to print out a rebuttal of a Post series on their incompetence and have their employees pass it out.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Dec 5, 2008 0:47:05 GMT -5
Well, that actually makes perfect sense. Any chance the Silver Line will be built smarter? |
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DrumsGoBang
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by DrumsGoBang on Dec 5, 2008 8:02:22 GMT -5
From Drums... "1. You should already be able to see it since it's happened everywhere else the Metro has been built. Just look at the development along the Orange line. It's even going to happen up in Rockville and along the Red line too. Montgomery county is going to plan walkable villages all along the red line and it's already happening at Rockville town center. " I used to live at Franconia-Springfield. There is nothing down there. It is not walkable. "2. I would like a new downtown line, but this can get done now and finally has the funding. The downtown line will be great, but tunneling in the city will cost twice what the silver line is costing. Sure ridership will go up, but that is good thing. More revenue for the system, less traffic jams around 66 and 495. Better for the environment. If the only bad thing is your train is more crowded in the morning, then deal with it. More people on the train doesn't cause the system to stop working...the sucky trains do, but that has nothing to do with the silver line." More ridership? The system is already dangerously crowded at Rosslyn. If you work down on the Blue Line, transferring to the Orange is awful. Awful to the point where trains can't let anyone on at Clarendon. This isn't "waaah, I want my seat", this is "two trains passed me and I couldn't get on". "3. Ft Belvior and The New Walter Reed are going to create a drastic shift in commutes and traffic patterns all around. The miltary was stupid not to build near transit or add transit as part of the plan. Maybe a new Administration can address this. There are ideas to bring light rail to the area." Don't bet on it. BRAC is famous for being nonpartisan. "5. Why can't you rely on public transportation? Sure there were a few times it broke...but guess what, there are things like buses. Sure the are filled with crazy people..and gasp minorities, but they also take you places. Also, I can tell you that my car has broke more times then the Metro." Can we cut it out with the "if you don't like public transport, you don't like minorities" stuff? I used to rely on Metro to get into the city on the weekend. The ride itself was thirty minutes to Crystal City. But it was never thirty minutes. Metro ran every twenty minutes if you were lucky. About one-tenth of the time, Metro was single-tracked. And getting to Crystal City took an hour (my favorite was when they closed down the track between National and Braddock Road and ran buses - and the trains on Monday ran SLOWER than usual. I loved the Fairfax Connector, which was infamous for being on time markedly more often than Metro, despite the fact that Connector ran in traffic and made numerous stops. But they run once an hour during rush hour. I'd heavily favor upping bus frequency, but people still have an aversion to it. I now walk to work, and it's a godsend - I don't have to deal with a broken road system or a broken Metro whose elected board doesn't ride the system and whose corporate culture resists FOIA requests and who spent my taxpayer money to print out a rebuttal of a Post series on their incompetence and have their employees pass it out. 1. You could say the same thing about New Carolton and a few other stops, but you are not proving anything. You said Tyson's won't become walkable. Well since there is already a plan, and examples at other stations, it probably move likely then not to happen. 2. What are you talking about? I live in Rosslyn. The metro has never been dagerously crowded for me. I've taken it at all different times during the day from 7:00am to 2:00am in the morning and all times in between. Do you have a fear of someone touching you? They have never not let people on, except for after the 4th of July for me. 3. Hope! 4. I win. Hahahahahah! 5. Just because it's late doesn't mean it does not work. It got you to your destination. Sure there are going to be delays sometimes, but every type of transportation has its delays. There are traffic jams for cars, broken trains for Metro, etc. That doesn't prove that expanding public transportation is wrong or will further harm the system. The Silver line will have it's own tracks, own maintenance, that will not effect the blue line, green line, etc. |
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DrumsGoBang
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by DrumsGoBang on Dec 5, 2008 8:34:20 GMT -5
1. Cont - Springfield is also an end of the line station. it was suppose to be designed to be a big parking lot. Almost all the end of the line stations are like that. Shady Grove, New Carolton, Glenmont, etc. It allowed commuters in the ex-burbs to park at these stations and then take the train in. For the other stations inside the system you would have a difficult time trying to come up with more then 3 or 4 stations that aren't already walkable or have a plan to become walkable. The only one that comes to my head is Forest Glen. The Tyson's stations aren't going to be built like Springfield will huge parking lots around them to deter development. That makes them more likely to encourage smart growth.
Additional reasons the Silver Line is grrrrrrr...great!
6. Better for the Environment. Reduce the number of cars on the road, reducing pollution.
7. Traffic. Just like item 6, less cars mean less traffic. Commuters will take the path of least resistance. Right now that is a car, but when you are stuck in traffic while you watch the metro pass you by, you might reconsider. Also when gas prices were high people reconsidered their commuting options and a lot found that public transport is better. Now that gas prices are super low again, you don't see that shift back.
8. Good for the economy. The line will provide a lot of jobs to construction in an other wise slow market. Allows lower income and people without cars access to new jobs. Spurs growth around metro stations as stated in point one.
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Dec 5, 2008 9:36:43 GMT -5
Good points, bando and drums. Silver Line---and increased public transport---are a must in this region. As a native Southern Californian, trust me, additional vehicle infrastructure and cars on the roads are not a viable solution to increased population and sprawl.
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Dec 5, 2008 9:44:00 GMT -5
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Dec 5, 2008 10:00:11 GMT -5
I think very good points are being made on both sides of this discussion.
To exorcist's point, no, adding some system expansion is not going to solve the problems of a public transportation system that is horribly mismanaged and poorly designed to boot. But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to improve it. This is sorely needed, and should be done.
To drums and the other pro-Silver line people, yes, there are some significant long-term benefits that may (hopefully will) be realized through the Silver line and other enhancements and it is a good thing that they are finally getting around to it. However, Metro has infrastructure problems that are far from sporadic, they are rapidly becoming systemic, and it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world to try to divert some funding to addressing those issues instead of just addressing expansion. (And if you think WMATA is going to pull this off as planned, you haven't been living in the same Metropolitan area I've been living in for the last 16 years.)
As for the crowding issue, I do have to side with exorcist. I'm not sure when others are riding the trains, but there are many, many times when people on the platform have to let a couple of trains go by because there is no room. And I'm not talking about "ewww, someone's touching me" no room. I mean, you can't squeeze another person on without Astroglide no room.
(at least that's how it is on the Orange line in the morning. I can't speak for the other lines, but I imagine the Red line has many of the same problems -- in addition to breaking down almost weekly). It would probably be better if they ran more 8-car trains, but again, they don't have nearly enough of them.
(The braking system, among other thing, is different for the new 8 car trains, so they can't just add cars to a six-car train. They tried that and it was an abortion. They need new cars.)
There's something really wrong when it takes me almost an hour to get to work by train and only a half hour to get there by car, even in heavy traffic.
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Post by strummer8526 on Dec 5, 2008 11:23:10 GMT -5
What is the purple on that map? I've heard of the mythical purple line, but that thing runs all over Middle Earth. Is that like bus routes or something? |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Dec 5, 2008 11:45:09 GMT -5
The proposed purple line is light rail, I believe, not buses.
Though that may have changed. Maybe it's light rail around the outside of the city and buses within the city??
This newer map does address some of my previous concerns about Loudoun, Fairfax, Prince William counties.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Dec 5, 2008 11:46:41 GMT -5
I think you all are exaggerating the Orange line woes. I rode it virtually every day for the last three years and I only had to let a train pass by on rare occassions. I admittedly tended not to experience the "Crush" on the ride home because I tended to head home around 7 PM, but still not too bad.
That said, the Rosslyn chokepoint is a very real and very frustrating problem. Unfortunately, the solution to that will adversely affect me now that I'm a blue line man.
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Dec 5, 2008 12:07:41 GMT -5
2. What are you talking about? I live in Rosslyn. The metro has never been dagerously crowded for me. I've taken it at all different times during the day from 7:00am to 2:00am in the morning and all times in between. Do you have a fear of someone touching you? They have never not let people on, except for after the 4th of July for me. If you live in Rosslyn, then how often are you trying to LEAVE Rosslyn during the evening rush?  I.e, trying to catch an Orange Line in the direction of Vienna between 5:30-7:30ish? The lower level of the station is typically a solid mass of people (Orange Line residents who work somewhere in VA along the Blue Line). You will sit there with a few hundred other people, COUNTING the number of people who get off the car in front of you to figure out how many people should be able to board in response. The real perk of expanding Metro service out to Dulles will be pushing the limits of "reasonable commuting distance" even deeper into WV and southern Ohio. Even bigger houses and even bigger SUVs to drive. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2008 12:22:57 GMT -5
So, let me get this straight...a major transfer station in the public transit system of a major metropolitan area is jam-packed-crowded during rush hour?
Wow...I'm stunned.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Dec 5, 2008 12:31:47 GMT -5
The proposed purple line is light rail, I believe, not buses. Though that may have changed. Maybe it's light rail around the outside of the city and buses within the city?? This newer map does address some of my previous concerns about Loudoun, Fairfax, Prince William counties. The extra purple on the map are light rail lines proposed by DC. They're building the first one in Anacostia right now. The rest are just proposals. And yes, the purple line in Maryland is scheduled to be a light rail line right now. The opposition to this comes from wealthy people in Chevy Chase. Apparently one can be all sorts of liberal, transit-friendly, and environmentalist and still oppose transit in your own neighborhood. Ah, NIMBYism. |
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Dec 5, 2008 12:36:25 GMT -5
I think very good points are being made on both sides of this discussion. To exorcist's point, no, adding some system expansion is not going to solve the problems of a public transportation system that is horribly mismanaged and poorly designed to boot. But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to improve it. This is sorely needed, and should be done. To drums and the other pro-Silver line people, yes, there are some significant long-term benefits that may (hopefully will) be realized through the Silver line and other enhancements and it is a good thing that they are finally getting around to it. However, Metro has infrastructure problems that are far from sporadic, they are rapidly becoming systemic, and it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world to try to divert some funding to addressing those issues instead of just addressing expansion. (And if you think WMATA is going to pull this off as planned, you haven't been living in the same Metropolitan area I've been living in for the last 16 years.) As for the crowding issue, I do have to side with exorcist. I'm not sure when others are riding the trains, but there are many, many times when people on the platform have to let a couple of trains go by because there is no room. And I'm not talking about "ewww, someone's touching me" no room. I mean, you can't squeeze another person on without Astroglide no room. (at least that's how it is on the Orange line in the morning. I can't speak for the other lines, but I imagine the Red line has many of the same problems -- in addition to breaking down almost weekly). It would probably be better if they ran more 8-car trains, but again, they don't have nearly enough of them. (The braking system, among other thing, is different for the new 8 car trains, so they can't just add cars to a six-car train. They tried that and it was an abortion. They need new cars.) There's something really wrong when it takes me almost an hour to get to work by train and only a half hour to get there by car, even in heavy traffic. Somewhat off topic question for you Boz: how much does it cost you to park at work, and what would a change in that price do to your transit/car decision assuming all other factors stayed the same? |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Dec 5, 2008 12:58:38 GMT -5
The cost of my parking garage at work is about $100 more per month over what my Metro fares were every month.
Obviously, that doesn't take fuel cost into account, but Ballston is not that far from Capitol Hill, so even with traffic it takes me a while to go through a full tank of gas. I don't have a hybrid (though I am considering that in the next couple of years), but I do have a car that gets about 32/24 mpg, which isn't bad.
I won't lie. My primary motivator is not environmental issues (are you surprised?), it's cost efficiency. Yeah, it's nice to take Metro and smell my own farts for being environmentally conscious, but that only goes so far in accepting inconveniences. Right now, it is worth it for me to spend about an extra $100, plus gas, to not have to deal with Metro, and the additional freedom and flexibility I get by having a car at work. Having a car does allow me to perform my job better, since I often have to visit different offices around the metro area. By having a car, I can do that at my convenience, instead of having to plan "off-site" days well in advance.
If my parking fees were jacked up another $100 a month or so, I'd probably have to reconsider, and I would probably go back to Metro. Right now, I am spending $1200 extra per year, which I am OK with. If that became $2400 a year? I'd probably stop driving. At the current level, the cost differential is worth it, at least to me.
(My work offers pre-tax deductions for parking and Metro, so there's not a big difference there.)
I should point out, though I have gotten frustrated with WMATA, I am a fan of Metro. I want it to succeed, I really do.
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Dec 6, 2008 17:34:17 GMT -5
I won't lie. My primary motivator is not environmental issues (are you surprised?), it's cost efficiency. Surprising how often cost efficiency and environmental sensibility go together when you properly internalize benefits and costs  |
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I.e, trying to catch an Orange Line in the direction of Vienna between 5:30-7:30ish? 
