The Fall of St. John's

[TBird41]

sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/the_bonus/11/19/stjohns/index.html

Real interesting read on SJU. Can't say I knew about the Housing stipend bit.

Also, the entire time I was reading it, all I could think was, there, but for the grace of JT3...

[Just Cos]

My ranking of things that are different between programs, which equates to the top versus bottom of BE.

Coach (on and off the court)
NCAA sanctions
Academic prestige

[JimmyHoya]

The sad thing about the article is it lists 1898923 different reasons St. John's is being held back, and it lists a grand total of 0 ways to overcome the current obstacles. What does Norm need to do? Get good players. How? Pretend it isn't St. John's. Depressing as heck. I don't think it's a coincidence that Redmen.com is down right now..

[MassHoya]

Kids who are planning on one and done don't care much about academic prestige. These are the kids who can turn around a program quickly. They want to go to big name program with a lot of exposure, make a big splash and go to the Association. A big name coach obviously helps as well.

The NCAA sanctions and the lack of success have hurt SJU badly. It turns quickly into a vicious circle. Building a program with 3 to 4 year quality players is a painstakingly slow, unsure process. Let's hope the Redmen come back. As stated earlier, we should appreciate what we have and who our coach is... That's why they call this time of year Thanksgiving!

[vamosalaplaya]

The article mistakenly says Roberts was never a head coach. He was a head coach very early in his career, and had a shockingly bad record of 24-84 (.222) at Queens College.

Roberts major selling point when he was hired was that he was a great recruiter. He is also by all reputation a terrific guy and a total class act.

But the article, with its half empty tone about St. Johns, is a load of crap. St. Johns is in New York City, and when St. Johns is good, they get awesome coverage. I have been in the Garden too many times in a sea of red going crazy not to see what an easy sell St. Johns should be. And unlike alot of other private schools in big cities - Boston College, Northwestern, Georgetown, Villanova - St. Johns has a very large undergraduate population (15,000), 90% plus of whom stay in the local area post-graduation, giving them a huge fan base.

And while the academic argument certainly can be made to help in certain recruiting situations, many players are not looking for that.

When schools in the middle of nowhere with no basketball tradition from Baylor, to Kansas State, to Washington State, to Gonzaga and Davidson can hit the national stage and stay there, it is absolutely ridiculous to paint St. Johns into a corner.

Not sure Roberts is the guy to turn the program around, it was a real bummer to see Mason go down. I also think that the St. Johns job would be a terrific opportunity for any number of coaches should it open up.

I will also add that when they were good in the 1980s I hated St. Johns alot more than Syracuse. So that part I wouldn't want back, but NY fans have always been very appreciative of JT III and it would be exciting to see St. Johns back. The excitement of beating St. Johns in the Garden every year too easily has worn off.

[nashvillehoyas]

St. John's, in addition to G'town, Villanova, Syracuse, UConn, Seton Hall, and Providence are the Big East....I wish that the Hall had tried harder to get Rick P. when he decided to come back into college coaching. I know that discussions took place. I know that he showed some interest.

[jgalt]

What highlights the fall of St. John's is the picture on the second page. Their best player, who is a very good player, going up against to role players from Georgetown, neither of whom are with the team anymore, in a game which saw St. John's get dominated by one of the aforementioned role players.

[TBird41]

Nov 25, 2008 16:37:00 GMT -5 jgalt said:

What highlights the fall of St. John's is the picture on the second page. Their best player, who is a very good player, going up against to role players from Georgetown, neither of whom are with the team anymore, in a game which saw St. John's get dominated by one of the aforementioned role players.

My first thought when I saw that picture? "None of those guys are playing in the Big East this year". Luckily the two GTown players weren't key cogs for the Hoyas, unlike Anthony Mason, Jr.

[hoyalove4ever]

It's hard to pin this all on Norm, who inherited a terrible situation. Most coaches would have failed in that situation. That said, it's difficult to say whether they need to make a change or give Norm a few more years to try to work things out.

[jgalt]

Nov 25, 2008 16:45:56 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

It's hard to pin this all on Norm, who inherited a terrible situation. Most coaches would have failed in that situation. That said, it's difficult to say whether they need to make a change or give Norm a few more years to try to work things out.

I think this is the biggest problem of all: the uncertainty of it. Its really impossible to say that there is one thing that has caused all the problems. If firing Roberts were the answer it probably would have happened, but because a new coach could just as easily have the same results as Roberts the benefit to hiring a new coach is unknown, while giving roberts some more time has a known benefit, namely reestablishing relationships in AAU and High School levels (whether in NYC or not).

[Omega]

It appears that Norm has finally found his footing. As much as he has railed against hiring AAU coaches, he finallly has come to the solution that AUU coaches are necessary to survive in big time basketball.

[hoyalove4ever]

Good point, jgalt. It is easy just to say, "Fire the coach" without really determining if that will help. At this point, I think SJU is better served trying to ride it out for another year or so with Norm.

[SirSaxa]

Good piece on a tough situation at SJU.
Norm Roberts came in from being an asst. to Bill Self the same year that JT3 came to GU.
WOW

What a difference.

In JT3's favor?
• Head coaching experience... 4 years at Princeton
• Inheriting incoming recruits Roy Hibbert and Jeff Green
• Bringing Jonathan Wallace along with him.. wow, that one turned out pretty well!
• Hoya Blue building support for the team
• The greatest hoops posters in the world on Hoya Talk!
• Georgetown University - what could be better than that?!?!
• Bearing the name John Thompson... synonymous with Hoops Royalty in DC/Balto/VA... and beyond and the extended network of community support.
• Retaining the connection with Hoya Hoops Alumni -- and getting Pat. Jr to GU!!
• Being an all-around cool guy
• And... the #1 reason in his favor... being the best damn basketball coach in the country!

[Boz]

It's a good story, I'm just not sure I agree with the intro.

Idyllic, picturesque, beautiful? Ummmmmm.....no.

Seth Davis, how many campuses have you been to?

Other than that a good, if disheartening, report.


Oh, and also...everything that SirSaxa just said! Happy Thanksgiving for Hoyas indeed!

[FromTheBeginning]

What our government needs is someone who can make our federal funds "expand" the way those stipends used to "grow" for the SJU players in the old days.

[jgalt]

Nov 25, 2008 17:22:01 GMT -5 SirSaxa said:

• Inheriting incoming recruits Roy Hibbert and Jeff Green
• Bringing Jonathan Wallace along with him.. wow, that one turned out pretty well!
• Hoya Blue building support for the team

I think these are the most important things that gtown has had and SJU has not. Last years senior class save the program. They were guys who were passed up by better programs (at the time, and im mainly referring to jeff here) and then exceeded expectations. That kind of thing doesnt just happen, yes it takes good coaching, but also some luck (ala stephon curry). Hopefully SJU gets two or three guys who turn out to be awesome after three or four years and become the face of SJU hoops nationally.

I dont know what the student support is at SJU (although judging by attendance, its pretty bad) but hoya blue deserves credit for good marketing and communication with the students to keep the enthusiastic.

[DFW HOYA]

Nov 25, 2008 17:30:50 GMT -5 Boz said:

It's a good story, I'm just not sure I agree with the intro.

Idyllic, picturesque, beautiful? Ummmmmm.....no.

He's writing to an audience who hears Queens and thinks St. John's is in Roosevelt or along the 7 train to Shea Stadium. Actually, SJ's Hillcrest campus is a lot like Seton Hall--small, self-contained, and not much outside the gates.

The article was remarkably soft on an issue that predated Norm Roberts, that of a school in transition. St. John's is a school for a lot of first generation college students, with a third of students going part time and SAT's (verbal and math, 1075) that are among the lowest in the league. Its university president gutted men's athletics six years ago and today SJ is just three sports over the NCAA minimums, with a men's and women's fencing team to keep it above the minimum.

Carnesecca (and before him, Lapchick) leveraged the area high school populations to great effect in recruiting. Too often, SJ is seen as out of the running for the NYC area's best high school players, and as Georgetown found this out the hard way in basketball in the 1990's (and as Georgetown football knows all too well today), all good recruiting starts local.

So where would Georgetown be if this was its scenario? Probably broke.

[idhoya]

Any idea if DMC graduated?