kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 26, 2012 14:09:48 GMT -5
It's also pretty easy to make the argument that a Vietnam-era Senator's son who went on to make millions benefited tremendously from government in ways that a poverty-line man of the same age might not have. Vietnam-era Senator's son? Hey John Fogarty, who are you talking about? I think a good argument could be made that Obama has benefitted from the government as much as anyone else running for the office. He's a multi-millionaire solely because he was a senator and, now, the President.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 26, 2012 14:15:08 GMT -5
I agree with Ed, and the idea that a person's tax rate should be based on how much they are benefiting from government is a fairly novel argument. It's really difficult to quantify how much a person "benefits" from government, and there's certainly an argument that people living below the poverty line benefit from government more than Mitt Romney. It's also pretty easy to make the argument that a Vietnam-era Senator's son who went on to make millions benefited tremendously from government in ways that a poverty-line man of the same age might not have. I don't disagree with that at all, but I think your comment illustrates what I'm trying to say: the "let's determine who benefits from federal government more in order to set tax rates" argument is a total Editeding contest. (BTW, it's interesting that Mittens likes to point out that he didn't receive any money from his parents...) And now I'll go away so that Boz can tell you all some jokes.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 26, 2012 14:26:29 GMT -5
I don't disagree with that at all, but I think your comment illustrates what I'm trying to say: the "let's determine who benefits from federal government more in order to set tax rates" argument is a total Editeding contest. Agreed. I think the better argument for why the tax rates should revert to Clinton era rates is the deficit and our inability to come close to bridging that gap through cuts alone.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 26, 2012 14:27:46 GMT -5
Another way to frame it, and I admit I don't know taxes perfectly well, is that Romney has been reported to have a $100M IRA. That is pretty insane no matter how you slice it. I am sure it comes about as a loophole, but regardless, it reflects a value judgment at some level. I mean, I am sure some of us have IRAs, myself included, and you can only contribute at most $5-6K a year for tax-deferred status. Why does Romney need $100M in tax-deferred money to retire?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 26, 2012 14:29:56 GMT -5
I make no promises, but I'll try to do better than that "crying over spilled milk" line.
Anyway, if people want to tout the merit of the "fair share" mantra, I'm OK with that.
I'll just go ahead and assume that you are in favor of a flat tax (or maybe the Fair Tax system).
In which case, we're pretty close to agreement.
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Jan 26, 2012 15:18:53 GMT -5
I make no promises, but I'll try to do better than that "crying over spilled milk" line. Anyway, if people want to tout the merit of the "fair share" mantra, I'm OK with that. I'll just go ahead and assume that you are in favor of a flat tax (or maybe the Fair Tax system). In which case, we're pretty close to agreement. "Fair Share" is one of the more successful left-equivalents of the list that TC posted several pages ago ( link). On the list of phrases that irk me, I would add "broaden the base" and "as an historian."
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 26, 2012 15:42:31 GMT -5
hoyainspirit, I am afraid you jinxed the tread yesterday. Don't do that anymore, willya? Gotcha.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Jan 26, 2012 18:53:33 GMT -5
Warren Buffet benefits a lot more from the government than his secretary does. Romney also. Most of what the government does benefits the capital establishment. Not saying anything is wrong with that but let's not pretend that the federal government is the enemy of capitalism. How exactly does Romney benefit more from the federal government than a nurse or a teacher? Does he benefit more to the degree that he should pay taxes at a higher rate (or pay more total tax dollars) than he currently does? Because the major economic work of the federal government: the Federal Reserve, the Treasury, the Federal Courts, a lot of the tax code, the whole system of GSEs and federally backed secondary markets, investment tax credits, tax shelters, trade agreements, federal r&d, privatization of federal contracts, etc., etc., etc. are set up to make sure that investment markets don't freeze up and to give wealthy investors every available opportunity to use their money to make more money. And when investment markets did freeze up, then the government, led by the Fed, rushed in and protected the investors from taking their losses. If investors in Mortgage-Backed Securities or in idiotic derivatives based on those securities lose money, the Fed bails out AIG so that AIG can pay the idiot investors in its idiot derivatives. And then when the Asset-Backed Securities market froze up, the Fed and Treasury created the Toxic Assets Loan Facility to loan billions to investors to buy ABS with the securities themselves as collateral, so that if they lost money the federal government ate all the losses, but if the securities made money, the investors pay back the loans. The Fed and the Treasury didn't cut any slack for the small businesses or the credit card customers who were affected by the financial crisis. They only subsidized the big investors in securities backed by small business loans and credit card agreements by giving the investors no-risk, high-reward opportunities to make free money. I'm not an expert on Romney's history, but from what I have read Bain does not appear to be exceptional in any way. They put together a big pile of money to play with and they bought up companies and quite a few of their investments failed but they hit it big with a few others and made more piles of money. Good for them, but making money with money is not the hardest thing to do. As for Warren Buffett, this is a guy who filed his taxes with a $35 tax deduction for using his bicycle and watch on his paper route in NW DC when his dad was a Congressman. He is just a guy who knows how to make money. Paying taxes never stopped him from doing it. The most admirable thing about him is he is not like the rest of the jackasses who complain about the government while living luxuriously comfortable lives. For all the bitching about taxes, if Gingrich wants to take credit for the budget being balanced at the end of the Clinton Administration then let's just go back to those 1998 rates when the economy was great and the budget was balanced. Or go back to Saint Reagan's tax rates.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 26, 2012 19:46:01 GMT -5
Another way to frame it, and I admit I don't know taxes perfectly well, is that Romney has been reported to have a $100M IRA. That is pretty insane no matter how you slice it. I am sure it comes about as a loophole, but regardless, it reflects a value judgment at some level. I mean, I am sure some of us have IRAs, myself included, and you can only contribute at most $5-6K a year for tax-deferred status. Why does Romney need $100M in tax-deferred money to retire? The IRA rules being what they are and have been since their institution, I believe it is patently false that Romney has a $100M IRA. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 26, 2012 20:13:10 GMT -5
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 26, 2012 22:11:00 GMT -5
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 27, 2012 0:11:15 GMT -5
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 27, 2012 8:46:37 GMT -5
I stand corrected on the possibility of upwards of a $100M IRA.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 27, 2012 9:36:12 GMT -5
I thought that was a pretty impressive performance by Mitt last night. He obviously knew the stakes and came out swinging. My guess is that he wins Florida going away. I am not even sure Gingrich will come in second. We'll see.
I still think he is deeply flawed against Obama, though. He got destroyed by Santorum on Romneycare. He doesnt need that argument right now, but he will need in this fall.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 27, 2012 17:17:33 GMT -5
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 27, 2012 19:53:31 GMT -5
As the question goes "what do you now call those you called nerds in school? Boss".
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 31, 2012 12:43:53 GMT -5
The fight moves to Florida and this thread goes quiet? What's up with that? Everyone trying to avoid drawing hifi in to this thread?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 31, 2012 13:02:51 GMT -5
The fight moves to Florida and this thread goes quiet? What's up with that? Everyone trying to avoid drawing hifi in to this thread? Spit take. Well done, sir. ;D For my part, I am just getting pretty tired of the bickering and backbiting. There is very little substantive discussion at the moment (I am referring primarily to the Republican discussion, but I think you also have to include anything coming from 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. after that snoozefest and platitude-fest of a SOTU, not to mention Jay Carney's daily spin-o-rama). I can't think of much that either Romney or Gingrich has said lately that is even worth listening to, much less reacting too. And all the media is doing is trying to figure out which one they hate more, which is usually directly proportional to which one is having the better week. Santorum is speaking more sensibly than any of them, and I really never thought I would write those words in that order. And while I enjoy a good snark fest as much as anyone, there comes a point when the candidates are less like leaders and more like that hot German chick from Die Hard. As awesome as she may be with a wicked curved knife, I think it's time for Jeremy Irons to step in and say, "I think he's dead, my dear."
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 31, 2012 14:24:17 GMT -5
As long as we are in a lull, I really do implore everyone to go back and read the first several pages of this thread from a few years ago. Holy crap, I am laughing my ass off. I forgot how much fun that was. You can skip past page one and its ridiculous Bobby Jindal, Kathleen Sebelius (Michael Fricking Bloomberg) predictions. And then prepare yourself for raucousness. On a side note: Ben's Chili Bowl still[/u] sucks! And so does ketchup.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 31, 2012 14:39:54 GMT -5
As long as we are in a lull, I really do implore everyone to go back and read the first several pages of this thread from a few years ago. Holy crap, I am laughing my ass off. I forgot how much fun that was. You can skip past page one and its ridiculous Bobby Jindal, Kathleen Sebelius (Michael Fricking Bloomberg) predictions. And then prepare yourself for raucousness. On a side note: Ben's Chili Bowl still[/u] sucks! And so does ketchup. [/quote] Soooo, is it pop or soda (or Coke)?
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