EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 25, 2012 19:40:46 GMT -5
Everyone is obscuring the truth in talking about tax rates and who's paying their fair share. Why not be honest and talk about actual taxes in dollars and compare Warren Buffet to his secretary. Buffett pays an enormously larger amount of taxes than his secretary and Mitt Romney pays an enormously larger amount of taxes that a typical middle class person.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Jan 25, 2012 19:59:41 GMT -5
Warren Buffet benefits a lot more from the government than his secretary does. Romney also. Most of what the government does benefits the capital establishment. Not saying anything is wrong with that but let's not pretend that the federal government is the enemy of capitalism.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 25, 2012 20:39:11 GMT -5
After going through a lull, this thread is suddenly entertaining again. ;D
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 25, 2012 20:53:15 GMT -5
After going through a lull, this thread is suddenly entertaining again. ;D I resent that!! I am always entertaining!!! ;D (unlike 99% of SOTU addresses and opposition responses ) But, to your point, at least we're not talking about voter ID laws anymore. haha
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ksf42001
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Post by ksf42001 on Jan 26, 2012 3:23:25 GMT -5
Everyone is obscuring the truth in talking about tax rates and who's paying their fair share. Why not be honest and talk about actual taxes in dollars and compare Warren Buffet to his secretary. Buffett pays an enormously larger amount of taxes than his secretary and Mitt Romney pays an enormously larger amount of taxes that a typical middle class person. Lets institute a 90% tax on the middle class then. Buffett and Romney would still by paying an "enormously larger amount" of taxes than a teacher or nurse in that situation, so it's still fair i guess...
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 26, 2012 9:40:10 GMT -5
Everyone is obscuring the truth in talking about tax rates and who's paying their fair share. Why not be honest and talk about actual taxes in dollars and compare Warren Buffet to his secretary. Buffett pays an enormously larger amount of taxes than his secretary and Mitt Romney pays an enormously larger amount of taxes that a typical middle class person. Lets institute a 90% tax on the middle class then. Buffett and Romney would still by paying an "enormously larger amount" of taxes than a teacher or nurse in that situation, so it's still fair i guess... Apparently Buffett's secretary has a second home in the Phoenix area and makes several hundred thousand a year. I wish I was in that "middle class."
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 26, 2012 10:42:48 GMT -5
Everyone is obscuring the truth in talking about tax rates and who's paying their fair share. Why not be honest and talk about actual taxes in dollars and compare Warren Buffet to his secretary. Buffett pays an enormously larger amount of taxes than his secretary and Mitt Romney pays an enormously larger amount of taxes that a typical middle class person. Probably because comparing counting numbers rather than percentages is for first graders, and this is a board full of college educated posters.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 26, 2012 10:52:10 GMT -5
Everyone is obscuring the truth in talking about tax rates and who's paying their fair share. Why not be honest and talk about actual taxes in dollars and compare Warren Buffet to his secretary. Buffett pays an enormously larger amount of taxes than his secretary and Mitt Romney pays an enormously larger amount of taxes that a typical middle class person. Probably because comparing counting numbers rather than percentages is for first graders, and this is a board full of college educated posters. Actually, I think it more of an eighth-grade level math problem. Look, we all know how this work. The Dems say Buffett pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary to shade the truth to their side, and the GOP points out that Buffett pays millions more in taxes than his secretary does to support their arguments. Both are right, but neither advances public discourse. Edit: apparently I can't spell at an eighth-grade level.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 26, 2012 10:52:33 GMT -5
Come on. Americans can figure out that $6M is more than $6,000. Obviously, people get that Romney pays a lot of actual money in taxes. You guys are making it seem like is somehow disingenuous to use the term, "fair share," without coming clean on that fact.
Again, "shade the truth?" Huh? Romney's taxes are online. He pays $3M in taxes. Americans with 3rd grade education know that $3M is more than than 3,000.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 26, 2012 10:58:32 GMT -5
Come on. Americans can figure out that $6M is more than $6,000. Obviously, people get that Romney pays a lot of actual money in taxes. You guys are making it seem like is somehow disingenuous to use the term, "fair share," without coming clean on that fact. Again, "shade the truth?" Huh? Romney's taxes are online. He pays $3M in taxes. Americans with 3rd grade education know that $3M is more than than 3,000. Then why doesn't the teleprompter ever tell Obama to mention the fact that Buffett pays millions more in taxes than his poor little secretary?
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 26, 2012 11:01:59 GMT -5
Come on. Americans can figure out that $6M is more than $6,000. Obviously, people get that Romney pays a lot of actual money in taxes. You guys are making it seem like is somehow disingenuous to use the term, "fair share," without coming clean on that fact. Again, "shade the truth?" Huh? Romney's taxes are online. He pays $3M in taxes. Americans with 3rd grade education know that $3M is more than than 3,000. Then why doesn't the teleprompter ever tell Obama to mention the fact that Buffett pays millions more in taxes than his poor little secretary? I agree that the Buffett thing is pretty ridiculous. Its quite obvious that Warren Buffett's secretary makes a lot of money.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 26, 2012 11:02:42 GMT -5
Warren Buffet benefits a lot more from the government than his secretary does. Romney also. Most of what the government does benefits the capital establishment. Not saying anything is wrong with that but let's not pretend that the federal government is the enemy of capitalism. How exactly does Romney benefit more from the federal government than a nurse or a teacher? Does he benefit more to the degree that he should pay taxes at a higher rate (or pay more total tax dollars) than he currently does?
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 26, 2012 11:33:22 GMT -5
Romney paid $3M in taxes. How much did you pay? Then how can you say that Romney's $3M is not a fair share? Also, the current laws allowed him to contribute $2.98M to charity, including $1.53M to the LDS and another $1.45M to other charities. If his taxes were to go up, don't you think the amount he contributes to charity would go down?
It's also difficult to justify saying Romney or Buffett benefit that much more from the government. Defense benefits all equally. Social Security and Medicare do not directly benefit him at all, nor does Medicaid, food stamps, unemployment benefits, and other welfare-like things that make up a large part of the budget. The only areas I can see where they benefit more than typical middle class citizens is in the area of financial systems and regulations.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 26, 2012 11:50:21 GMT -5
Romney paid $3M in taxes. How much did you pay? Then how can you say that Romney's $3M is not a fair share? Because I paid a higher marginal rate on my earnings and last time I checked taxes are not a flat fee but a percentage. So what? Who says I even agree with those charities/religious organizations or think they are worthwhile? How Romney spends his after-tax money is not my business.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 26, 2012 12:27:21 GMT -5
It's also difficult to justify saying Romney or Buffett benefit that much more from the government. Defense benefits all equally. Social Security and Medicare do not directly benefit him at all, nor does Medicaid, food stamps, unemployment benefits, and other welfare-like things that make up a large part of the budget. The only areas I can see where they benefit more than typical middle class citizens is in the area of financial systems and regulations. I agree with Ed, and the idea that a person's tax rate should be based on how much they are benefiting from government is a fairly novel argument. It's really difficult to quantify how much a person "benefits" from government, and there's certainly an argument that people living below the poverty line benefit from government more than Mitt Romney. A big argument for a progressive tax rate (in my opinion) is that it encourages social mobility and a healthier, safer society. It's as if we're afraid of modern-day Republicans calling that idea "class warfare" or "social engineering," and so we've moved on to this "fair share based on benefit derived" argument.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 26, 2012 12:35:01 GMT -5
Romney paid $3M in taxes. How much did you pay? Then how can you say that Romney's $3M is not a fair share? Because I paid a higher marginal rate on my earnings and last time I checked taxes are not a flat fee but a percentage. So what? Who says I even agree with those charities/religious organizations or think they are worthwhile? How Romney spends his after-tax money is not my business. Yeah, I thought we made this point pretty clear. In fact, "fair share" is pretty much the exact correct terminology. You taxes are a share, or percentage, of your income. It is reasonable to believe that it is not fair that Romney takes home a bigger "share" of that than I do. He does that because he gets breaks that kick for things that I personally dont agree with, and I am sure others dont as well. Why should he benefit for capital gains investment? Is it so clear that his doing so makes America better? That is certainly debatable.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 26, 2012 12:52:31 GMT -5
Why should he benefit for capital gains investment? Is it so clear that his doing so makes America better? That is certainly debatable. Capital investment is bad for the economy? The benefits of capital investment are now up for debate? There's certainly an argument to be made that the tax rate on capital gains should be raised, but governments should absolutely encourage capital investment (which is the principal argument for a low rate on capital gains, right?).
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 26, 2012 12:57:03 GMT -5
I didnt say it was bad for the economy. Its debatable whether capital gains taxing at lower rates are the type of thing that makes America better (which is presumably why they qualify for the rate). I think governments should absolutely encourage that all citizens have health care. You can make the same argument that is good for the economy and for bettering America. But, Im sure that some would debate that.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 26, 2012 13:31:51 GMT -5
hoyainspirit, I am afraid you jinxed the tread yesterday. Don't do that anymore, willya?
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 26, 2012 13:32:43 GMT -5
I agree with Ed, and the idea that a person's tax rate should be based on how much they are benefiting from government is a fairly novel argument. It's really difficult to quantify how much a person "benefits" from government, and there's certainly an argument that people living below the poverty line benefit from government more than Mitt Romney. It's also pretty easy to make the argument that a Vietnam-era Senator's son who went on to make millions benefited tremendously from government in ways that a poverty-line man of the same age might not have.
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