Bando
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Post by Bando on Sept 19, 2008 10:26:49 GMT -5
Anyone want to say they have never used their business email address for personal correspondence? I haven't, although I work in electronic discovery, so I see the folly of doing so first hand. Although I thought the issue here was that she used her personal address for business, not vice versa.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Sept 19, 2008 10:35:41 GMT -5
I'm sure it was a Democrat, no one else cares enough to do this. I'm also sure it's a stupid kid, because no one else uses 4chan. I really don't think the 4chan people really need a reason to do anything like this other than 1) they can, and 2) it would screw with a bunch of people. The organization claiming credit is called "Anonymous", which is most famous for protesting Scientology. Unless that's suddenly become a partisan issue, I wouldn't be so quick to assign motives.
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TC
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Post by TC on Sept 19, 2008 10:55:47 GMT -5
If her password was really up on 4chan as "popcorn", then there were probably literally hundreds of people that were on her account.
I don't know much about "Anonymous" - is it really an organized group? I always got the sense that it was more of a disorganized meme that started on 4chan, and sort of a way of intimidating people and trying to deflect responsibility.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Sept 19, 2008 11:05:15 GMT -5
If her password was really up on 4chan as "popcorn", then there were probably literally hundreds of people that were on her account. I don't know much about "Anonymous" - is it really an organized group? I always got the sense that it was more of a disorganized meme that started on 4chan, and sort of a way of intimidating people and trying to deflect responsibility. From what the folks at 4chan are saying, this wasn't really a hack at all. ( Link) Apparently the person doing this just answered her "you've forgotten your password" questions correctly based on Palin's biographical details that recently have been disseminated everywhere. And yes, it was probably wrong to call Anonymous an "organization", but I couldn't think of a better word.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 19, 2008 13:53:18 GMT -5
I see no evidence in these links. They only seem to say she did it without any evidence. But, even is she did do state business on her private account, so what? Does that give me the freedom to hack into her email?
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TC
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Post by TC on Sept 19, 2008 14:05:59 GMT -5
Ed, I'm not real sure you understand the issue here or want to :
Washington Post : "Palin also routinely does government business from a Yahoo address, gov.sarah@yahoo.com, rather than her secure official state e-mail address, according to documents already made public.
"Whoops!" Palin aide Frank Bailey wrote, after addressing an e-mail to the governor's official state address. "Frank, This is not the Governor's personal account," a secretary reminded him."
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Sept 19, 2008 14:23:14 GMT -5
I see no evidence in these links. They only seem to say she did it without any evidence. But, even is she did do state business on her private account, so what? Does that give me the freedom to hack into her email? Not at all, I was just clarifying.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Sept 20, 2008 10:56:32 GMT -5
I don't condone it, but I have no sympathy. We pay for government IT systems through our taxes because of security. If she wants to skirt around accountability by taking official business off of official servers and use a Yahoo address, she deserves it. If she had kept her private address private - it would have been secure through obscurity (no one would have known her email was "gov.sarah"). It is like leaving your door open in NYC - it's not right that you will be robbed, but you were completely irresponsible in failing to take any precautions to prevent it. I cannot believe that 4chan /b/ - the board whose members published information about someone's internet-bullying related suicide and then harassed their parents by calling up and pretending to be the dead son - has become part of this presidential race. Just crazy. Sounds like the "she had it coming" defense. You'd make a good defense lawyer.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Sept 20, 2008 10:58:16 GMT -5
Ed, I'm not real sure you understand the issue here or want to : Washington Post : "Palin also routinely does government business from a Yahoo address, gov.sarah@yahoo.com, rather than her secure official state e-mail address, according to documents already made public. "Whoops!" Palin aide Frank Bailey wrote, after addressing an e-mail to the governor's official state address. "Frank, This is not the Governor's personal account," a secretary reminded him." You ignore the question he asked - where does that give someone an invitation to hack into her email? Does it make it any more or less correct? BTW, I sent a work email over my personal email account yesterday after reading this thread. It felt pretty good.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Sept 20, 2008 12:13:51 GMT -5
Is it right for someone to hack into her email account? of course not. But what she was doing was still irresponsible and also possibly very dishonest. So although the information was discovered in an illegal manner doesn't mean it made what she did any less irresponsible and dishonest.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 20, 2008 12:48:02 GMT -5
Is it right for someone to hack into her email account? of course not. But what she was doing was still irresponsible and also possibly very dishonest. So although the information was discovered in an illegal manner doesn't mean it made what she did any less irresponsible and dishonest. What is dishonest about using your personal email to do state business? And, if there is nothing secretive about the email, why is is irresponsible to do so on your personal email? It's akin to saying that, if she conducted state business in her own home, it's irresponsible and dishonest. I don't get it.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 20, 2008 13:43:01 GMT -5
Is it right for someone to hack into her email account? of course not. But what she was doing was still irresponsible and also possibly very dishonest. So although the information was discovered in an illegal manner doesn't mean it made what she did any less irresponsible and dishonest. What is dishonest about using your personal email to do state business? And, if there is nothing secretive about the email, why is is irresponsible to do so on your personal email? It's akin to saying that, if she conducted state business in her own home, it's irresponsible and dishonest. I don't get it. Let's compare it to the White House. The US law says the WHite House must maintain records and copies of ALL correspondence (letters, emails, faxes, etc.) ... this is important to preserve for future generations to assess the inner workings -- AND, of course, to be able to investigate possible wrong doing. Secondly, it is illegal to fund raise from the White House (I am not an expert on all the fund raising ins and outs and rules, but that is the gist). The Bush White House has been notorious for using RNC and private email accounts for official biz (as a way to skirt accountability and "paper trails"), and for destroying copies of years of White House emails - this all came to light during the investigation into the Scooter Libby/Cheney/Rove underhanded leaking of classified information, as well as on other occassions. So, extrapolating to Alaska, use of Palin's private email for public biz is a way to skirt accountability issues and to impede investigations -- such as troopergate. I don't know what the laws in Alaska are. But that comment about one of the Alaska Admin's secretaries admonishing a Palin Aide for addressing emails to Palin's official State email account instead of her personal one seems very odd indeed. I am not suggesting I know for certain that use of the private account is in any way related to illegal or questionable activities, but on the other hand, why would Palin or her aides be using her personal account for any business related to the State? That is why it is questionable. I hope the above answers your question.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 20, 2008 13:53:15 GMT -5
What is dishonest about using your personal email to do state business? And, if there is nothing secretive about the email, why is is irresponsible to do so on your personal email? It's akin to saying that, if she conducted state business in her own home, it's irresponsible and dishonest. I don't get it. Let's compare it to the White House. The US law says the WHite House must maintain records and copies of ALL correspondence (letters, emails, faxes, etc.) ... this is important to preserve for future generations to assess the inner workings -- AND, of course, to be able to investigate possible wrong doing. Secondly, it is illegal to fund raise from the White House (I am not an expert on all the fund raising ins and outs and rules, but that is the gist). The Bush White House has been notorious for using RNC and private email accounts for official biz (as a way to skirt accountability and "paper trails"), and for destroying copies of years of White House emails - this all came to light during the investigation into the Scooter Libby/Cheney/Rove underhanded leaking of classified information, as well as on other occassions. So, extrapolating to Alaska, use of Palin's private email for public biz is a way to skirt accountability issues and to impede investigations -- such as troopergate. I don't know what the laws in Alaska are. But that comment about one of the Alaska Admin's secretaries admonishing a Palin Aide for addressing emails to Palin's official State email account instead of her personal one seems very odd indeed. I am not suggesting I know for certain that use of the private account is in any way related to illegal or questionable activities, but on the other hand, why would Palin or her aides be using her personal account for any business related to the State? That is why it is questionable. I hope the above answers your question. Doesn't answer either of my questions relative to Alaska and Gov. Palin using her private email to do state business and how this is dishonest and irresponsible.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Sept 20, 2008 14:07:45 GMT -5
It's irresponsible because it's less secure and allows for stuff like this to happen. and it's potentially dishonest because as the articles in this thread indicate it seems she was conducting business on her private email instead of her state email because the public has access to her state emails but not to her private ones. That's why it's dishonest.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 20, 2008 14:51:50 GMT -5
Sarah's leaves for the supermarket, leaves her business blackberry at home but carries her personal blackberry. While shopping for elk and potatoes she remembers she wants to discuss an issue on caribou hunting that may have state implications so she grabs her personal blackberry and emails her lieutenant governor with the following message "Let's meet at the Blubber Cafe tomorrow at 10:30 to discuss whether we need to do something on caribou hunting. Let me know if that's okay." You could say that's state business but it is neither dishonest nor irresponsible.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Sept 20, 2008 15:14:20 GMT -5
Doesn't answer either of my questions relative to Alaska and Gov. Palin using her private email to do state business and how this is dishonest and irresponsible. ed, this is why it's dishonest and irresponsible: Alaska Open Records ActMany news outlets have reported this was not a case of occasionally forgetting a state cell phone at home, but a deliberate attempt to skirt around an Alaska law promoting open government (usually a large part of ethics reform, which Palin claims to champion). I have worked in state politics -- by and large state FOIAs/Open Records and Meetings Acts are taken very seriously. All 50 states in the union have one. It does not speak highly of Governor Palin that she is either unaware of (doubtful) or chose to find away around a law of her state.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Sept 20, 2008 16:36:13 GMT -5
This e-mail issue just doesn't do it for me, unless it is wrapped into something larger, like an effort to portray Palin as Cheney II, which she probably would be. Taken alone, this issue is in the weeds too deep to make a difference, I think.
We're now a couple of weeks beyond the Republican Convention, and it is apparent that the Palin bump did not have much staying power. She will attract people at town hall meetings, which would have been expected anyway given the proximity of the election. Given the likely focus on the economy from now until Election Day, Senator McCain may have been better served by picking Romney.
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TC
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Post by TC on Sept 20, 2008 18:29:29 GMT -5
Sounds like the "she had it coming" defense. You'd make a good defense lawyer. The most common hacker defense takes it even further to "he did her a favor" - by exploiting X security hole, you have done the victim a favor by showing them what their vulnerabilities are (despite whatever harm has come to them).
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 20, 2008 19:02:54 GMT -5
Pardon me, but where's the evidence? "Many news outlets have reported this was not a case of occasionally forgetting a state cell phone at home, but a deliberate attempt to skirt around an Alaska law promoting open government " is not evidence, it's new outlets saying something is so, including implying (with no supporting evidence) it was a deliberate attempt to go around Alaska law. Show me what Alaska law was involved and not the one pertaining to "public records" which, to me, refers to land records, marriage records, court records, etc. and not emails or telephone calls or conversations between the governor and others. Show me it was not an occasional thing but a pattern. Show me it was a deliberate attempt to go around a law. Making accusations is not the same as something actually being so. It's obvious you are trying to create a situation where none exists.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Sept 20, 2008 22:40:37 GMT -5
Pardon me, but where's the evidence? "Many news outlets have reported this was not a case of occasionally forgetting a state cell phone at home, but a deliberate attempt to skirt around an Alaska law promoting open government " is not evidence, it's new outlets saying something is so, including implying (with no supporting evidence) it was a deliberate attempt to go around Alaska law. Show me what Alaska law was involved and not the one pertaining to "public records" which, to me, refers to land records, marriage records, court records, etc. and not emails or telephone calls or conversations between the governor and others. Show me it was not an occasional thing but a pattern. Show me it was a deliberate attempt to go around a law. Making accusations is not the same as something actually being so. It's obvious you are trying to create a situation where none exists. If I can't use printed stories in national newspapers, then I guess I don't have any evidence. Oh wait, I forgot. I AM a private investigator with loads of spare time on my hands. One plane ticket to Anchorage, please. Do you have any evidence (printed in reputable newspapers or otherwise) contradicting the printed stories I am referring to? Also, this: caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/alaskastatecases/2003/sp-5725.pdfAnd this: sunshinereview.org/index.php/Alaska_Public_Records_Act
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