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Biden!
Aug 23, 2008 21:43:07 GMT -5
Post by jerseyhoya34 on Aug 23, 2008 21:43:07 GMT -5
The best break that young guy got in terms of looking at his record came in the form of gunfire. AGREED! I can't believe this myth is still alive and well. Kennedy escalated Vietnam and got us as close to nuclear annihilation as we ever have been. He also orchestrated a coup in a little country known as Iraq. I must admit to being confused by some of this text. Without going into all of the issues with it, I have to ask how you can like Khrushchev's handling of the missile crisis more than Kennedy's. Personally, I don't think Kennedy chose to have those missiles so close to our shores. Apart from that, agreement with elvado's post is particularly troubling. I am not sure where you stand on the Bush/Cheney/McCain policies of the last 8 years, but I have found them to lack distinction. So, please share, if you support these policies, what you are proud to support for another 4 years. Ronald Reagan (the idol of these idealogues), I imagine, is looking down in horror at what has befallen this country.
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Biden!
Aug 23, 2008 21:48:01 GMT -5
Post by strummer8526 on Aug 23, 2008 21:48:01 GMT -5
AGREED! I can't believe this myth is still alive and well. Kennedy escalated Vietnam and got us as close to nuclear annihilation as we ever have been. He also orchestrated a coup in a little country known as Iraq. I must admit to being confused by some of this text. Without going into all of the issues with it, I have to ask how you can like Khrushchev's handling of the missile crisis more than Kennedy's. Personally, I don't think Kennedy chose to have those missiles so close to our shores. Yeah, it's like saying Bush caused 9/11 b/c he was President at the time it happened. I don't think you can blame Kennedy for the actions of others that just coincided with his term in office.
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The Stig
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,844
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Biden!
Aug 23, 2008 21:58:48 GMT -5
Post by The Stig on Aug 23, 2008 21:58:48 GMT -5
The best break that young guy got in terms of looking at his record came in the form of gunfire. AGREED! I can't believe this myth is still alive and well. Kennedy escalated Vietnam and got us as close to nuclear annihilation as we ever have been. He also orchestrated a coup in a little country known as Iraq. He did like black people, talked purdy, and looked nice. For some reason the Dems still think these are the ideal qualifications for a candidate. Kennedy listened to the voices of reason in 1962 and overrode the Joint Chiefs' demand for an invasion. In doing so he helped save the world from nuclear annihilation. Shortly before he was shot, Kennedy decided to pull out of Vietnam. He realized the coup against Diem was a mistake, and that we didn't have a reliable partner to work with in South Vietnam. Unfortunately, he neglected to tell Johnson about his plans.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,487
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Biden!
Aug 23, 2008 22:41:48 GMT -5
Post by GIGAFAN99 on Aug 23, 2008 22:41:48 GMT -5
Alright guys, that's cool. None of Kennedy's prior actions including his gaffe at the Bay of Pigs led to the Russians' attempting their subsequent actions. And he was shot before he could tell anyone his plan to undo his stumble in Vietnam. Of course, silly me. Just a great man who made a couple of "boo-boos."
As for the last 8 years, come on. Read my post in the other thread Jersey. Bush and JFK can both be horrible at international conflicts in their own rights.
You know, the other issue here is weak leadership on the international stage and poor decisions have consequences later. To think that Kennedy "saved the world" after his apparent weakness got us to that point is like Bush trying to tell us "time will prove him right" on Iraq. Regardless of how it turns out in Iraq, Bush mishandled almost all his international policy pre-surge. The same goes for JFK prior to the missile crisis. There would be no reason for a "surge" or to "save the world" without the errors leading up to it.
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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Biden!
Aug 24, 2008 10:24:53 GMT -5
Post by EasyEd on Aug 24, 2008 10:24:53 GMT -5
Back to the subject, almost. The best comment I heard today was from one of the losers in the VP sweepstake, Tim Kaine. He said something to the effect of "My wife said I should not be disappointed since I already have the highest office in the land. You're my husband". Classy.
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The Stig
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,844
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Biden!
Aug 24, 2008 11:18:05 GMT -5
Post by The Stig on Aug 24, 2008 11:18:05 GMT -5
I didn't say JFK was the best ever (he wasn't). I was just saying he was a better President than LBJ or Nixon. It's not exactly top competition he was up against.
I think JFK was decent, but not great. That's more than can be said for the other two.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,777
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Biden!
Aug 24, 2008 13:32:06 GMT -5
Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 24, 2008 13:32:06 GMT -5
I didn't say JFK was the best ever (he wasn't). I was just saying he was a better President than LBJ or Nixon. It's not exactly top competition he was up against. A 2005 historians poll rated the presidents as follows. Harry S Truman has gone from having the worst public approval rating in history (22% vs. GW Bush's 28%) to a top 10 president. Roosevelt: 3 Reagan: 6 Truman: 7 Eisenhower: 8 Kennedy: 15 Johnson: 18 G.W. Bush: 19 Bush: 21 Clinton: 22 Ford: 28 Nixon: 32 Carter: 34 The top five? Washington, Lincoln, FDR, Jefferson, and TR.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,783
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Biden!
Aug 24, 2008 13:52:40 GMT -5
Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 24, 2008 13:52:40 GMT -5
I'd love to hear the argument that puts Washington over Lincoln. Not to diminish Washington's contributions, but, c'mon.
That's about my Top 5, though.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,487
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Biden!
Aug 24, 2008 14:23:47 GMT -5
Post by GIGAFAN99 on Aug 24, 2008 14:23:47 GMT -5
I'd love to hear the argument that puts Washington over Lincoln. Not to diminish Washington's contributions, but, c'mon. That's about my Top 5, though. It's pretty amazing what time does for you. I'm betting Ike and Reagan didn't have those numbers circa 1960 and 1988 respectively.
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CO_Hoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,109
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Biden!
Aug 24, 2008 14:57:51 GMT -5
Post by CO_Hoya on Aug 24, 2008 14:57:51 GMT -5
A 2005 historians poll rated the presidents as follows. Harry S Truman has gone from having the worst public approval rating in history (22% vs. GW Bush's 28%) to a top 10 president. I believe that is this list, put together by the Wall Street Journal and the Federalist Society. Siena College puts out their own list after the election of a new president ( link). For JFK: 1982 - 8th 1990 - 10th 1994 - 10th 2002 - 14th Here, Lincoln is again consistently 2nd, although now he trails FDR. Wikipedia is my friend.
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Biden!
Aug 24, 2008 15:23:09 GMT -5
Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Aug 24, 2008 15:23:09 GMT -5
Does Teddy's abysmal record in the Nationals presidents race affect his place on the list?
Biden needs to stick to the script (provided it isn't someone else's) and not try to ab lib too much - then he's a good VP candidate.
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FewFAC
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,032
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Biden!
Aug 24, 2008 23:01:29 GMT -5
Post by FewFAC on Aug 24, 2008 23:01:29 GMT -5
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The Stig
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,844
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Biden!
Aug 25, 2008 9:05:59 GMT -5
Post by The Stig on Aug 25, 2008 9:05:59 GMT -5
The ad at the top of this page shows McCain and Lieberman together, with the line 'Join Our Team' and 'paid for by John McCain 2008'. Fake?
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,506
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Biden!
Aug 25, 2008 9:19:38 GMT -5
Post by theexorcist on Aug 25, 2008 9:19:38 GMT -5
I'd love to hear the argument that puts Washington over Lincoln. Not to diminish Washington's contributions, but, c'mon. That's about my Top 5, though. Many people wanted Washington to be a king and to continue as a president. His refusal to do this established a trend of peaceful succession. Lincoln preserved the Union, but Washington created the idea of a democratic union in the first place.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I've got some regrets!
Posts: 2,431
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Biden!
Aug 25, 2008 9:44:42 GMT -5
Post by Bando on Aug 25, 2008 9:44:42 GMT -5
I believe this is the definitive take JFK.
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Biden!
Sept 29, 2008 16:55:45 GMT -5
Post by grokamok on Sept 29, 2008 16:55:45 GMT -5
Alright guys, that's cool. None of Kennedy's prior actions including his gaffe at the Bay of Pigs led to the Russians' attempting their subsequent actions. The Bay of Pigs fiasco was a result of Kennedy's political alterations of Eisenhower's misconceived initiative based on Alan Dulles' faulty intelligence calls and his subordinates' poor planning. There was plenty of blame to go around. With regard to the original subject of the thread, I think there is a good chance that the upcoming VP debate will be a "good Biden/bad Biden" moment. Up by 4 with just seconds left in the game, will he foul Palin on a 3-pointer?
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