RDF
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Post by RDF on Jul 18, 2008 13:48:35 GMT -5
What? Mourning had 14 to 16 points and a good number of blocks and was primarily resposible for guarding senior All American Danny Ferry. Laettner was free to go wild against the likes of Joh Turner, Jaren Jackson and even Charles Smith. It wasn't Zo's best performance but not even close to one of the worst performances for a Hoya in the history of Gtown hoops. I don’t know, MCI. He just wasn’t as dominant in that game as I thought he should have been. Even the coach sat him for a few because of his ineffectiveness. He damn sure made up for it in the Big East-ACC challenge 2 years later though… Mourning was also in foul trouble if I remember correctly--at least in First Half--and with officials feeling need to make up for the NC State game--which everyone says Hoyas were "lucky" to win--despite Dwayne Bryant having a great night/carrying team. Only reason '89 team didn't get to Final Four--Charles Smith having a bad Regional/being ill and Jaren couldn't hit a shot against NCSU. Turner went AWOL, and if you remember--Jonathan Edwards came in and sparked a comeback--with Bobby Winston to cut a double digit margin down to a hoop in like 3 minutes--but then Duke answered-Laettner had a big stat game and no pressure on him to perform--and Phil Henderson's dunk on Zo was why he gets blasted more then anything which is ridiculous. Hoyas peeked in BET--and never played a game near that level in NCAA's--but still won 3 games--which is a sign of how good that team was.
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JB5
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Post by JB5 on Jul 18, 2008 13:55:04 GMT -5
Best: '84 semis vs. Kentucky. Hoyas destroyed a team that had been ranked 1 or 2 the whole season by holding them scoreless for about the first 11 minutes of the 2nd half.
Worst: '83 second round against Keith Lee and Memphis. Missed dunks, careless fouls and sloppy play. Dishonorable mention: the 2nd round loss to Scott Skiles and MSU. I still get upset thinking about that one.
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on Jul 18, 2008 14:44:37 GMT -5
Those are my two JE. The '87 and '89 losses really hurt. GU was on the doorstep. Imagine GU could've easily won 5 titles in the 80's.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jul 18, 2008 15:14:04 GMT -5
Those are my two JE. The '87 and '89 losses really hurt. GU was on the doorstep. Imagine GU could've easily won 5 titles in the 80's. Make that 6. OK, everything would have had to go our way and you never get it ALL to go your way. Still, 6 realistic shots, only one conversion. '80 Iowa, 1 point, regional final '82 UNC FiNAL FREDDIE '84 HOORAY, WE WON ONE! '85 UGH '87 as mentioned '89 as mentioned Other years we had a shot? '96 '06 '07
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mapei
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Post by mapei on Jul 18, 2008 18:46:15 GMT -5
'85 belongs in the conversation, because our supposedly best-ever defense was completely embarrassed. I don't think Jeff vs. Ohio State was as bad as conventional wisdom says. Look at Ewing's numbers in the '84 final vs. Houston for comparison. Jeff's weren't all that far below his season average - the problem is that the team had come to rely on his being heoric the last several weeks of that season. (He also took more shots against Oh-St than his stat line indicates, because of an offensive goaltend by a teammate and some fouls that reduced the official attempts.) If Jeff was average or a little below, the rest of the team couldn't overcome. He certainly was not great that night, and maybe below average. But worst ever? Not even close. Roy had worse games that very season.
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on Jul 18, 2008 23:16:08 GMT -5
Those cats didn't miss in '85. It seemed there was nothing GU could do. I remember Pressley throwin up some garbage and it went in. Some nights it just isn't meant to be.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Jul 19, 2008 0:00:18 GMT -5
'85 belongs in the conversation, because our supposedly best-ever defense was completely embarrassed. I don't think Jeff vs. Ohio State was as bad as conventional wisdom says. Look at Ewing's numbers in the '84 final vs. Houston for comparison. Jeff's weren't all that far below his season average - the problem is that the team had come to rely on his being heoric the last several weeks of that season. (He also took more shots against Oh-St than his stat line indicates, because of an offensive goaltend by a teammate and some fouls that reduced the official attempts.) If Jeff was average or a little below, the rest of the team couldn't overcome. He certainly was not great that night, and maybe below average. But worst ever? Not even close. Roy had worse games that very season. I disagree with the idea that the team relied on Jeff's heroics the last few games of the season. Both the BC and Vanderbilt games Jeff played good, but not great, and made some very critical mistakes that almost cost us both games. The BC game, I think he had two really bad turnovers right in a row that led to points for BC that cut into our then 7 point lead and I believe caused BC to recapture the lead. The Vanderbilt game, while he did have that great shot, he was relatively passive offensivily most of the game and rather inconsitent. If Jeff hadn't commited those two fouls 20+ feet from the basket to allow Vanderbilt to get 4 easy points and get the 1 point lead, he never would have HAD to make that shot. Roy was essentialy the reason we got past those two teams, if you remeber we were down both games until he came alive. Yes, Jeff had a great March, but to act like he carried the team to the final four and the BET is just rewriting history.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jul 19, 2008 1:39:25 GMT -5
Patrick Ewing was defending Hakeem Olajuwon in 1984--his numbers were secondary to winning the game and Pat wasn't tenative--in any game. He might have not won them all--but you never had to get him "up" for a game. Jeff played as if National Semifinal was a best of 3/5/7 and just picked the worst game to be tenative--especially when Roy was out due to foul trouble.
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Just Cos
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Post by Just Cos on Jul 19, 2008 13:23:51 GMT -5
Worst = anything involving Braswell towards the end of the game
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mapei
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Post by mapei on Jul 19, 2008 13:36:18 GMT -5
I don't want to go overboard in defending Jeff, because I was disappointed, too. But I don't think it was as bad a performance as conventional wisdom says. True, he only scored 9 points, 5 below his season average. But we lost by seven; if Jeff scores his season average, we're still two points short.
AND he grabbed a game-high 12 rebounds, twice his season average of 6.4 and as many as the rest of the team combined. He also had three assists. That's not a horrible stat line. True, it wasn't his best game offensively on a night when we needed a better one from him. But it doesn't belong in the conversation for worst ever in my opinion. YMMV.
FWIW, Patrick scored 10 points vs. Houston and had 9 rebounds. (Olajuwon scored 15 on 6-of-9 shooting and also had 9 boards.) I'll grant that it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, because we all know that those were two dominant centers going head-to-head. Jeff was a great player because of his skills as an all-rounder, but few would call him dominant. But, for me at least, it does add some perspective.
Here's who had a worse night than Jeff versus Ohio State: DaJuan, who scored three points on 1-of-10 shooting, plus 3 boards. If DaJuan goes 4-for-10, we win.
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Just Cos
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Post by Just Cos on Jul 19, 2008 13:55:46 GMT -5
Agreed Mapei. Also important to note that Roy spent way too much time on the bench, bad calls or not.
YMMV = ?
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on Jul 19, 2008 14:58:08 GMT -5
He needed to impose his will and be more assertive. Far too often he was waiting on it to come to him, like he had all year, but it never did.
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jacko
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Post by jacko on Jul 19, 2008 16:09:34 GMT -5
Strangely enough the first thing that came to my mind was Causey in the 2004 BET, ha.
And watching that Iverson dunk a few more times (I had seen it a few times before) I couldn't believe nobody got in front of him before he got 3/4 of the way into the lane - wow.
I'm from a more recent generation, but I think the one win (after the '06 Duke game) that really brought us back was the Ohio State game in the NCAA 2nd round. Roy and Jeff were beyond impressive in that game, and the team performance in '07 vs. UNC was great.
Worst - whoever was supposed to be guarding MacNamara in the 2nd half in the 2006 BET.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 19, 2008 16:35:09 GMT -5
I don't want to go overboard in defending Jeff, because I was disappointed, too. But I don't think it was as bad a performance as conventional wisdom says. True, he only scored 9 points, 5 below his season average. But we lost by seven; if Jeff scores his season average, we're still two points short. AND he grabbed a game-high 12 rebounds, twice his season average of 6.4 and as many as the rest of the team combined. He also had three assists. That's not a horrible stat line. True, it wasn't his best game offensively on a night when we needed a better one from him. But it doesn't belong in the conversation for worst ever in my opinion. YMMV. . It was a bad game for Jeff (although not the worst game for a Hoya in a really big game0). It was like some of his games in the first half of that season when he just seemed to disappear from the scoring column (ala ODU, Oregon, Duke, etc). But worse than his lack of scoring were his turnovers that came at the wrong times when the Hoyas were looking to score during fast break opportunities and trying to build on momentum. I think two led to buckets the other way for the Buckeys. And since III was never going to take Jeff off the floor that means he likley played over 35 minutes and gave the team only 9 points to boot. That's far too little production during too many minutes for your leading scorer. That being said if just one of the Hoyas forwards (Green, Summers, Ewing) had had a very good game the Hoyas could have beaten Ohio State because Wallace, Sapp and Hibbert all played well.
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mapei
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Post by mapei on Jul 19, 2008 17:01:25 GMT -5
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Jul 20, 2008 19:26:19 GMT -5
Another recent one that deserves a vote, in the category of "Complete Dominance of a Star Matchup in a Big Game"--Roy Hibbert in the 2007 Big East Tournament Final.
Hibbert: 18pts on 8-10 shooting, 11rbs Aaron Gray: 3 pts on 1-13 shooting
Not bad. Now, Hibbert wasn't entirely to "blame" for this--Aaron Gray missed an uncontested putback layup that night, for crying out loud--but that scoring line is symbolic of the game. A game, for that matter, that doesn't get nearly as many words spilled about it as the UNC game, Vanderbilt, or even the BET semifinals (perhaps because it was so lopsided) but probably should.
Long side note on MCI's post re: Davidson game. Funny enough, I now actually regret erasing that game from my DVR and not burning myself a copy. I mean, I was at the RBC Center and I have a decent memory, but just get the sense that it'd be useful to go back and watch it, train wreck that it was.
Big thing you missed in your comments though MCI were the turnovers--we had 20, the boatload had to be in the second half. True we shot 64 percent from the field, but Davidson took 16 more FG attempts, not to mention the FT disparity. Honestly, if you look at the boxscore from that game, it doesn't LOOK bad for us on paper--and Davidson overall and Stephen Curry specifically didn't have awesome LOOKING games on paper.
What still sticks with me--and the reason I WOULD put the game on a Worst Performances Top 5 list--was how between the turnovers and silly plays (the four point play and any of the 5-6 times the crowd exploded) the Hoyas came completely unglued in the final 15 minutes. This was a team over the past two seasons characterized by always looking poised in the final moments of close games, by Jeff Green constantly taking over in the final minute, by always willing out a comeback in the final moments and surviving via block/goaltend, foul with 0.1 left, a Hibbert three pointer, Summers' three against Louisville...
...and that team completely fell apart over 15 minutes.
(OTHER side note--Why WOULDN'T I put this on a Top 5 worst performances list? I honestly don't think the game is as significant as most of the tournament games discussed in this thread. But that's a different matter for another thread.)
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Jul 20, 2008 20:09:58 GMT -5
Ugh, just reading about that Davidson game again makes me feel a little sick to my stomach. I had blocked it totally out of my memory until some of these recaps. Offensive fouls, balls thrown away, crazy fouls... its all coming back to me again. The end of an era, but hopefully the motivation for a new one.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jul 20, 2008 22:52:48 GMT -5
Another recent one that deserves a vote, in the category of "Complete Dominance of a Star Matchup in a Big Game"--Roy Hibbert in the 2007 Big East Tournament Final. Hibbert: 18pts on 8-10 shooting, 11rbs Aaron Gray: 3 pts on 1-13 shooting Hibbert did destroy and demoralize Gray that game, much as he demoralized Harangody at times. And that game doesn't get as much attention because it was so one-sided (for a change!). The others were cardiac threats in which Jeff really made his bones.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 21, 2008 10:57:10 GMT -5
Ugh, just reading about that Davidson game again makes me feel a little sick to my stomach. I had blocked it totally out of my memory until some of these recaps. Offensive fouls, balls thrown away, crazy fouls... its all coming back to me again. The end of an era, but hopefully the motivation for a new one. What Davidson game???
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jul 21, 2008 11:05:12 GMT -5
Jeff did not choke in the Final Four.
They simply froze him out. They kept it simple. Jeff is the entire team. Let Hibbert beat you. Let anybody beat you but Jeff.
And thats why Ohio State won. They were the better team. They were a team that had a plan an executed it. Unlike UNC who had much better talent than our Hoyas.
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