torre done

[HoyaFanNY]

torre turned down the yankees 1 year offer with an option. i find it funny that he sticks it to them after they basically fired him in the media 2 weeks ago.


sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3069115

[strummer8526]

I thought he deserved 1 more year, and then if it's another loser, he can retire on his own terms with dignity. If he'd rather that "his own terms" be going out this way, then so be it. Yankees management is awful. Torre sunk when George and Cashman starting dragging in over-the-hill All-Stars (Kevin Brown, anyone?) rather than develop the in-house system that brought the Yankees Jeter, Rivera, and Bernie...then pick up role players (Tino, Brosius, etc.)

I want Joe Girardi in to manage--none of this Don Mattingly nonsense.

[Hank Scorpio]

i wonder how this affects negotiations with the yankee free agent class.

if that isn't enough money/years for Torre, good riddance.

curious to see how yanks proceed.

[Hank Scorpio]

Whoa whoa whoa, who do you think asked Brian Cashman to go out and acquire the Kevin Browns, Javier Vasquez's, and Randy Johnson's of the world? Joe Torre. The guy was given every player he ever asked for, regardless of salary - see the Bobby Abreu/Cory Lidle acquisitions last season, and Roger Clemens this season. And he was paid more than 2x what the next highest paid manager was. Let's not throw Joe a pity party for Joe Torre.

Furthermore, what is killing the Yankees now isn't the fact that they have too many stars...it's that none of those stars are pitchers. Player development is just now coming back into vogue, mainly b/c of Brian Cashman, and a core pitching staff of Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, and Ian Kennedy for the next 5 years will lead the Yankees to more playoff success than the rotations they have marched out since 2004.

The Yanks are rebuilding on the fly and still winning 94 games. Management is doing a fantastic job as far as I'm concerned; they finally stopped trading long term organizational health for short term triumphs. That they are making the playoffs while doing this is fine with me - once you're there, anything can happen.

strummer85 said:

I thought he deserved 1 more year, and then if it's another loser, he can retire on his own terms with dignity. If he'd rather that "his own terms" be going out this way, then so be it. Yankees management is awful. Torre sunk when George and Cashman starting dragging in over-the-hill All-Stars (Kevin Brown, anyone?) rather than develop the in-house system that brought the Yankees Jeter, Rivera, and Bernie...then pick up role players (Tino, Brosius, etc.)

I want Joe Girardi in to manage--none of this Don Mattingly nonsense.

[strummer8526]

I mean, maybe the impression that I've had is wrong: I always thought George was the primary force behind grabbing the big name Randy Johnson-types. I could be incorrect.

[Hank Scorpio]

Boss may have been behind RJ, but from my understanding, Joe had a lot of personnel input. He hasn't ever been lacking for talent, or money. I don't share the opinion that any season the Yanks don't win the World Series is a failure, but if you're working for Steinbrenner and cashing his paychecks, that's the deal.

Joe Torre also survived a 3-0 playoff collapse. How many managers have enough cred to come back from that? Not many. Heck, look at what happened to Grady Little.

[HoyaFanNY]

i love it how a team with a 200m plus payroll is rebuilding on the fly

[Hank Scorpio]

hence "on the fly"...

how much of that 200 mill is expiring in the next 2 years? i'll count it out:

expiring after 2008:
Giambi - 23 million
Mussina - 11 million
Farnsworth - 7 million
Andy P - 16 mill [assume he exercises 07 player option]
Abreu - 16 mill [assume team exercises 07 option]

expiring after 2009:
Matsui - 13 mill
Damon - 13 mill

that's off the top of my head, 84 million coming of the books in the next 2 seasons. assuming they retain rivera, posada and A-Rod at raises of 5 million each [liberal estimate], they have 69 million coming off, and a farm system absolutely loaded with pitching prospects.

like i said, rebuilding on the fly.

hoyafanny said:

i love it how a team with a 200m plus payroll is rebuilding on the fly

[RDF]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Torre was offered to be the HIGHEST PAID MANAGER IN HISTORY.

All he had to do was achieve goals. He was offered a $16 million for 2 year deal. If he got to the WS--his 2nd year was guaranteed. He's 68 years old and snuffed at a $5 million base, and 3 million in incentives?

BLEEP TORRE--he's a clown.

This is like Cowboy fans reaction after Tom Landry was canned--they all made crap of Jimmy Johnson and look how that turned out?

I'd rather miss the postseason and rebuild towards future then watch Torre mismanage old overpriced veteran team that fears change.

Now Posada can take his urine hands and go bleep himself. Talking tough--well leave then Edited boy.

I love Rivera--but if he wants out because Torre is gone--see you later.

Great day for Yankees as they can move on--and are rid of the most overrated manager in baseball. He was players "friend"--not their manager/boss.

[HoyaFanNY]

borat, please. who do you expect to hit for these 'loaded' pitching prospects? they will just replace the old, washed up, overpaid players you listed with more of the same. they are the yankees. that is what they do.

[Deleted]

I think there's something about all these great Yankee prospects that's much like Duke recruits. They're hyped up more simply because they're Yankees.

[hifigator]

The Yankees have quite a history of building through free agency so I don't think you can really "blame" them for that specifically at this point. I don't like the strategy long term for sure. But the Yankees have been very successful at times and not so successful other times. But they have almost always had the principle of trading off their prospects for proven "veterans." Sometimes it has worked and sometimes it hasn't. By the way, in this whole thread no one yet has mentioned the "great" acquisition of Carl Pavano. He's certainly proven to be "worth the money" ..... NOT! At least A-Rod has consistently produced when it didn't matter. Pavano has been the Grant Hill of the Yankees in his 2 short years.

[RDF]

That's a fabrication--the Yankee "Dynasty" was built through their farm system-and acquiring players via trades-for their prospects--which is how you should build a team. Free Agency is NOT the answer.

Rivera, Pettitte, Jeter, Bernie Williams were heart of that team. All homegrown.

O'Neill, Tino, Brosius, Nelson, were acquired via trade.

Fill in spots--a few low priced FA's.

Then you saw the change in philosophy in '02-up until now--and you see the FAILURE. It's a failure in Professional Sports to not win a Title. You don't have a "Great year" getting to postseason--you have a great year winning a championship. This is NOT COLLEGE SPORTS.

[strummer8526]

Sure, the Yankees always had their share of big name catastrophe free agent moves. I just really want to reference Cecil Fielder at some point in this thread, so here it is. But like RDF said, the core came from the farm system. Whether over-hyped b/c they're Yankees or not, this crop of young talent is looking interesting. I personally like Cano a lot. Jeter will be around forever, and Cabrera's not leaving. I personally like Posada. Other than that, I don't feel too much attachment to any of the other names that could walk. I think Andy is staying, which is the veteran presence on the pitching staff. I think we need to fix the corners, and see what the outfield situation is. Oddly enough, I like Damon too. He shows a certain flair at points, especially during the playoffs, that seems missing at times.

[DanMcQ]

www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/yankees/2007-10-18-torre_N.htm

www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/10/torre_out_as_ya.html?p1=MEWell_Pos2

bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/torre-meets-with-the-yanks-in-tampa/?hp

bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/torre-meets-with-the-yanks-in-tampa/?hp

[HoyaFanNY]

as a reds fan, the o'neill for bobby kelly trade still haunts me. lou won us a world title, but his idea that paul couldn't make it as a full time player was insane.

[Hank Scorpio]

It's what they did, which is why they haven't won a World Series since 2003. Cashman refused to part with his big three at the deadline this season [see: Gagne, Eric] and gave up nothing to get Bobby Abreu last season. I don't think you're giving Cashman enough credit for what he's done with the farm system the past 2 seasons. They were ranked in the lower 3rd of the league after 2005, and now are rated as highly as 8th, and they'd be higher if they had any position prospects of value. The organizational pitching depth is there, though, and Cashman seems intent on keeping it.

As for the Yanks prospects being like Duke recruits...I dunno, their farm system was openly called barren as little as 2 years back. Maybe the Chase Wright's and Matt DeSalvo's of the world are hyped b/c they are in pinstripes, but guys like Phil, Joba, Humberto Sanchez, and Andrew Brackman were all highly touted before the Yanks got them [Sanchez and Brackman recovering from Tommy John]. And I don't think Ian Kennedy projects to be more than a 3 or 4 starter...but that costs 7-10 million dollars a year in the current market.

hoyafanny said:

borat, please. who do you expect to hit for these 'loaded' pitching prospects? they will just replace the old, washed up, overpaid players you listed with more of the same. they are the yankees. that is what they do.

[Hank Scorpio]

The Yanks dynasty was built on pitching. Their offense has been good enough to get them to the playoffs the past few seasons, but once there, their pitchers did not stack up to the competition. You can't win on offense alone, only the 2002 Angels seemingly caught fire out of nowhere to win the whole thing.

Hopefully in the next 5 years the pitching catches up to the offense, and if so, the Yanks will be in good shape again.

In the meantime, could be another couple of years of first round exits until the prospects mature and are ready for prime time. And again, I have no problem with that, because, who knows, maybe the 2002 Angels phenomenon reappaers. Maybe not.

Like i said, rebuilding on the fly.

rdf said:

That's a fabrication--the Yankee "Dynasty" was built through their farm system-and acquiring players via trades-for their prospects--which is how you should build a team. Free Agency is NOT the answer.

Rivera, Pettitte, Jeter, Bernie Williams were heart of that team. All homegrown.

O'Neill, Tino, Brosius, Nelson, were acquired via trade.

Fill in spots--a few low priced FA's.

Then you saw the change in philosophy in '02-up until now--and you see the FAILURE. It's a failure in Professional Sports to not win a Title. You don't have a "Great year" getting to postseason--you have a great year winning a championship. This is NOT COLLEGE SPORTS.

[HoyaFanNY]

borat, is guidry gone? if so, who replaces him? please don't say leo mazzone.

[hoyatables]

hoyafanny said:

as a reds fan, the o'neill for bobby kelly trade still haunts me. lou won us a world title, but his idea that paul couldn't make it as a full time player was insane.

And as a Yanks fan back when he was first acquired, I think that was one of the smartest moves that the Yanks made in the early/mid-90s.