"All-Time" Greatest high-school QB's

[hifigator]

I am generally not much on the hypothetical rankings. You know like the "National Champion" in high school football where USAToday ranks teams from Florida, Texas and California for example. Not only do these teams not play each other but they almost never even have one common opponent. Another common list compares how teams of different eras would do against each other. That is basically useful only as discussion for entertainment purposes in my mind. How would the 84 Bears do against last years Steelers? How would Bradshaw's Steelers compete against Roethlisberger's? etc... How would the Cornhuskers of '95-'96 compare with the Gators of '96-'97? Could either of them compete with that Hurricane team from '87? etc...

Well there is another one of these lists out there. If anyone has the Sporting News High School Guide you probably know what I am talking about. I haven't seen the magazine but someone posted some of the listing over on our board.

Here are some of the rankings of all time greatest high school quarterbacks:

1. Elway
2. Marino
3. Peyton
4. Chris Leak
6. Steve Young
10. Aikman
15. Eli Manning
16. Sims (I presume Chris, but the poster didn't specify)
20. Leinart
24. Berlin (presumably Brock)

I am admittedly not an expert on the history of high school quarterbacks but on the surface at least a couple of things seem strange to me.

As much as I like Leak, #4 alltime sure seems a might high to say the least.

Do any of you have the magazine by chance? If so, does it say anything about what criteria the "experts" used and how they weighted them? Presumably this is a high school ranking system, so success or lack thereof in college or in the pros is irrelevant. That would certainly explain Berlin making the list.

Still, we had a guy named Danny Wuerffel who I would have expected to make the list. He led his team to 4 straight high school championships and put up some big numbers along the way. If I remember correctly, he didn't lose a game after 8th grade. And he was a big time recruit, ultimately choosing Florida over FSU, Bama and Auburn.

In any case, what do you all think of this list in particular and these types of lists in general?

[Deleted]

hifigator said:

In any case, what do you all think of this list in particular and these types of lists in general?

They're stupid.

Sure, sometimes the top teams play each other, but NONE of these high school squads as an ENTIRE roster of top flight talent like kids will face in college. As such, statistics are completely skewed: when Hyped QB X plays a team with Couldn't Cut It In D-3 Corner Y and torches him, what does that really mean? Sure scouts could tell you about the QB's moxie, mechanics, presence in the pocket, etc...

... but how does that translate to the next level when he's got monsters bearing down on him? The determination is speculative at best. Scouting high school players is, for the most part, based purely on instinct. There's no science to it, and nobody is a guaranteed lock to kick @$$ in college.

These losers who spend their entire lives watching tape and traveling to high school games to hype up some pimply faced 17 year old kid, and then later write about it and sell it to the general public have conned us all into thinking they have some sort of insight apart from anything us "commoners" couldn't see with our own eyes. Please, if those schmucks could REALLY evaluate talent, they'd be working for some D1 power already.

[hifigator]

Well said Buff, and I concur. Personally I have always thought that Mel Kiper is tremendously overpaid. I could do pretty much the same thing with a few hours of studying, and he is at the professional level. You can only imagine how much less precise analyzing high school kids is going to be. To say it is not an exact science is a tremendous understatement.

The one thing that has always baffled me is how enamored with the "specs" the NFL seems to be. They are always looking for that 6'3" QB with a cannon for an arm, yet seem to dismiss or disregard the 6' QB as being too short, even if he has a good head on his shoulders and makes all the right decisions. I understand the logic that you can't "coach speed" as they put it. Similarly you can't coach size. By the time these guys get to the NFL they aren't going to get any taller. But I still think too much emphasis is placed on the raw physical dimensions.

I think if anything those numbers are a good bit more important analyzing high schoolers. Yes, many are still growing but I would expect to need to coach the players more coming out of high school. I would count on the fact that they need my coaching so I would just want them to have the physical skills to excel. But coming out of college I would think that a history of being a team player and of being fundamentally sound should be weighted more heavily in the personel decisions than it seems to be.

[757hoyafan]

I would say Ronald Curry over Leak, he was the Natl player of the year in both Football & Basketball.

[Deleted]

Kiper blows.

I've watched the last two NFL Drafts on NFL Network because their draft "guru," Mike Mayock, is (1) easy to listen to, (2) doesn't yell, (3) isn't saddled with the worst commentators in the game (Berman, Irvin, Clayton, Mort, Sailsbury, etc.), and most importantly (4) doesn't make grandiose pronouncements like "this guy is the best X ever" or "team Y screwed the pooch here and will regret it for decades." I'm much more interested in the analysis of how a guy HAS played and how a team might use him, rather than a mere EDUCATED GUESS THAT I COULD MAKE - AND DON'T NEED ESPN TO DO FOR ME - OF HOW A GUY SUPPOSEDLY WILL PLAY. Mayock goes into what a player has done, how he's improved, where/how the team drafting him might use him, what he brings to the table, etc. None of this "his bench was terrible at the combine, so he's gonna be a poor TE" crap.

ESPN is garbage. Trash. Kiper stinks.

[/rant]

[TigerHoya]

Willy Korn

[TBird41]

Out of curiosity, did Joe Mauer make that list? He was a national Gatorade player of the year at QB and committed to FSU before signing with the Twins.

[hoyarooter]

Of all the stupid lists around, this may be the stupidist. I actually opened this thread only because I thought our great friend hifi might have made up his own list, and I was eager to join the excoriation.

I look forward to seeing Sporting News' next list of the all time great high school running backs. NOT.

[SFHoya99]

This is the dumbest thread I've read in a while. What an incredibly stupid poll.

[Boz]

Allen Iverson was a better high school quarterback than any of those guys.

;D

[hifigator]

Thanks for the input. TBird, good question about Mauer. I remember when FSU lost that prized recruit. No skin off my back being a Gator fan. Ironically the afternoon sports talk show here does a "Take it to the House" segment right before they go off the air. The two hosts select a "Take it to the House" player for that night's games. And then whichever player has a better night "wins." I honestly don't know if someone actually "wins" anything or not, or if it is just for hypothetical bragging rights. In any case, Joe Mauer was one selection last night. The host commented on how happy the Seminoles are right now so maybe it would carry over the Mauer who was almost a Nole.

Also I did a little reasearch last night and I was getting a couple of things mixed up. Wuerffel won 2 state titles and was undefeated his Senior year. That is certainly commendable but not the 4 straight. Now I am curious who it was who went on that streak. I wonder if maybe that was Berlin.... Not sure. I did look up Leaks numbers and they were damn impressive. He played for a perenial 4a powerhouse in North Carolina. Incidentally 4A is the highest level in NC. Anyhow Leak threw for 185 TDs and over 16,000 yards. At least on paper that is damn impressive.

[RDF]

hifigator said:

Thanks for the input. TBird, good question about Mauer. I remember when FSU lost that prized recruit. No skin off my back being a Gator fan. Ironically the afternoon sports talk show here does a "Take it to the House" segment right before they go off the air. The two hosts select a "Take it to the House" player for that night's games. And then whichever player has a better night "wins." I honestly don't know if someone actually "wins" anything or not, or if it is just for hypothetical bragging rights. In any case, Joe Mauer was one selection last night. The host commented on how happy the Seminoles are right now so maybe it would carry over the Mauer who was almost a Nole.

Also I did a little reasearch last night and I was getting a couple of things mixed up. Wuerffel won 2 state titles and was undefeated his Senior year. That is certainly commendable but not the 4 straight. Now I am curious who it was who went on that streak. I wonder if maybe that was Berlin.... Not sure. I did look up Leaks numbers and they were damn impressive. He played for a perenial 4a powerhouse in North Carolina. Incidentally 4A is the highest level in NC. Anyhow Leak threw for 185 TDs and over 16,000 yards. At least on paper that is damn impressive.

I've seen Joe Mauer play football and baseball and while I knew he'd be a great baseball player, he'd have been an even better QB in football. Thing is, he was set to commit to Miami until Butch Davis left for the Browns and that led him to FSU--but word was he'd go to MLB--his first love as a sport and his family's love too. Mauer was a Ken Dorsey with 10 times the physical ability. He had smarts, but could make all of the throws and would've started at FSU as a FR--he would have easily beaten out Rix.

As for Leak--North Carolina has a lot of great athletes but the high school football is poor. Nick Maddox, Steve Shipp, Mario Raley, are added to HS legends from that state and 2 of those are from Leak's HS--along with his older brother CJ--who was also overrated. Numbers can be put up due to not facing any teams worth a damn. Leak throws a pretty ball but that doesn't make you a great QB. The competition in NC is poor and Charlotte Independence always dominates--they have a kid who played there at UGA now--Joe Cox and he put up huge numbers as well. Find the best players from that state are the unknowns and guys like the above mentioned and such "legends" as Shamar Finney who supposedly the next Lawrence Taylor, or OJ Owens, the next Ronnie Lott often bust.

[JimmyHoya]

I wonder where Othella would be ranked on the All-Time HS Centers list.

[RDF]

What sums up HS "recruiting rankings" is the name Ronald Curry. Why do I bring him up? He was rated the #1 Football player in country and was ridiculously awarded top basketball player in the country. The guy wasn't even the best QB prospect in Hampton, VA---Michael Vick was a SR the same year Curry was, and if you know Hampton sports, Hampton HS is considered the power and others are a notch below--so Curry played on the "stacked" team--which often happens in HS and why so many analysts make the mistake of hyping kids--they forget you are projecting how they will be--not what they are doing against inferior/unbalanced playing field.

As a basketball player, Curry was pure manure. That kid wasn't as good as Jon Wallace is now--at any point in his career. I'm not saying he should've been either--but to award him that honor is a joke when the only person to EVER be even considered as a threat to that honor is Allen Iverson--who was a great, great, GREAT Football player--not so much as a QB though--he was raw/awkard, but one hell of an athlete. Leading your team to State Titles in Both sports when Bethel HS had no reputation as a powerhouse team/school is an awesome accomplishment. It's almost as if those who followed HS FB and BB recruiting awarded Curry for Iverson's achievements instead of watching Curry actually play.

[hifigator]

RDF, your point on NC football is well taken and when we see a trend of "can't miss" stars coming from the same area you certainly do begin to wonder. Not that you guys probably care that much, but the best two sport star I have probably seen first hand was Vernon Maxwell. He was the player of the year in both football and basketball. I think they won the state title in both football and hoops but not in the same year. I think one was in his junior season and the other in his senior. He would have been an incredible DB had he chosen football. He certainly didn't have his head screwed on perfectly however. He was in and out of trouble all from day one. At one point he would be a scratch any time the Rockets were playing at either the Heat or the Magic because he had a bench warrant for failure to pay child support. Certainly no role model. There are a core group of us who have always wondered whether he really meant to hit that famous shot against St. Johns in the tourney. We've always had the sneaking suspension that he went off and chunked up that half court shot a bit too early so that he wouldn't be tested, knowing that he would fail. "Luckily" the shot went in, we won, he was tested and ruled ineligible the next round and then dismissed from school in the off season. Then they scratched all his records that year from history.

[JimmyHoya]

I'm kinda suprised Mad Max hasn't killed anybody yet.

[aggypryd]

rdf said:

I did look up Leaks numbers and they were damn impressive. He played for a perenial 4a powerhouse in North Carolina. Incidentally 4A is the highest level in NC. Anyhow Leak threw for 185 TDs and over 16,000 yards. At least on paper that is damn impressive.

RDF!!! Dem is Fightin' words!!!!!

I played many moons ago down in Southeastern North Carolina, class of '89, and at the time, I thought we were pretty darn good.

I had a similar discussion with a friend from Virginia during my brief stint at Norfolk State. He argued me up and down about how Virginia football was so much better than North Carolina's. During the Christmas break, he caught our High School 4A state championship on TV, and he later came back and told me that he thought he was watching 2 college teams.

I'll freely admit that we are not on the Texas, Fla., Ohio, Penn., S.C., Alabama, and a few other states' level. I think those states put way more money into their programs on every level. But there is/was some highly competitive football being played in the state by some pretty good athletes.

Why a lot of the kids from the Southeastern part of North Carolina haven't moved on to make a larger impact on the college level is a huge mystery to me.

The only two I can think of that have recently 'made it' are Julius Peppers, Marcus Jones and Mario Williams.

[aggypryd]

My only beef with lists like these is the criteria used to rank these guys or to select people to be on the list. If it's clearly defined, then I don't have a problem.

Do you throw Elway, Leak, Leinart on the list because they threw for a million yards? or they won a certain amount of championships? accumulated a certain amount of victories?

I think it's crazy to put those guys on the list, but not include people like Tommy Frazier, Jamelle Holloway(sp), Shawn Graves, or Eric Crouch. (I'm assuming they had great high school careers because of what they did in college.)

[TigerHoya]

aggy,
I assume you were still playing when the Shrine Bowl wasn't a fair test of talent between NC and SC because NC's playoffs didn't end until the day of the game. As a native South Carolinian, I think NC has owned the game since the date was moved.

[aggypryd]

tigerhoya said:

aggy,
I assume you were still playing when the Shrine Bowl wasn't a fair test of talent between NC and SC because NC's playoffs didn't end until the day of the game. As a native South Carolinian, I think NC has owned the game since the date was moved.

yup...

If you made it to a certain round of the playoffs, you weren't eligible for the Shrine Bowl.

Shrine Bowl...WOW, Tiger...that was a blast from the past.