miamihoya
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Post by miamihoya on Dec 12, 2006 23:40:07 GMT -5
Enough of that... back to football .... I am hopefully looking forward to UCLA and Nevada winning their games for .... gasp .... could it be? ? ..... FSU and Miami to both finish at 5-6. After many years of being the only the third best team in the state, i guess it must feel nice to have the spotlight for once. Congratulations...you guys can drop your inferiority complex for a while. Honestly, I used to think FSU fans were the worst and most disgusting football fans in the world, but you sure make a case for the gaytors.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Dec 13, 2006 15:16:31 GMT -5
I've been sidetracked with finals and haven't posted much in this thread recently. I will attempt to consolidate a lot of responses to things people have said in the past week or so below. Hoyafan wrote: you are the one that compared florida to 2002 osu, not me. if you knew anything, you'd see that osu didn't have nearly as many bad wins as florida does.
That is certainly debatable. Let me refresh your memory a bit. Here are some scores from OSU's last National Title year: 23-19 over Cincy 19-14 over Wisconsin 13-7 over Penn. St. 10-6 over Purdue 23-16 over Illinois 14-9 over Michigan That would be 6 games within a touchdown or less, and not everyone on that list is a powerhouse. I looked back at the recaps and here are just a few details: Ohio St. took the lead against Purdue with 1:36 left in the game. Purdue fell to 4-6, 2-4 in the Big Ten. The Illinois game went to overtime and Illinois fell to 4-7, 3-4 in the Big Ten. The Buckeyes took the lead from Cincy with 3:44 left in the game and in the last minute of play the Bearcats drove to the OSU 15 yard line and then dropped 2 sure TD passes in the endzone. Incidentally, I didn't bother seeing how Cincy finished the year, but that game dropped them to 1-3. Penn. St. was certainly a quality opponent and was ranked 18th coming into the game. Still the Buckeyes had to overcome yet another 2nd half defecit. Don't get me wrong. Hats off to that Buckeye team. They found a way to win. But to imply that our near losses don't mirror OSU somewhat is absurd. Our relatively close game with Vandy would easily parallel the Purdue or Illinois games. No one we were in a battle with was as bad as Cincy. Our cupcakes got routed. And finally we didn't get taken to overtime. All I am saying is that much like OSU was winning ugly and thought to be drastically inferior to the mighty Canes that year. We have found ways to win ugly and are thought by most to be drastically inferior to the mighty Buckeyes. To deny that much is just plain stupid. Back in 2002, tOSU played all Tressel-ball, all the time. Last I checked, Urban Meyer doesn't game plan to win on a FG with less than a minute remaining. Any comparison of these two teams is flawed. Austin, I see your point to a degree but not to the conclusion. Were the Colts the best team in the NFL the past few seasons because they were the best during the regular season? Without a ring you can't say they were the best. I also wouldn't call the National Championship game an "exhibition," although I would agree that the rest of the bowls are largely unimportant. As for the "neutral field" comment, you say that as if it has a negative connotation. I don't see that either. If anything the fact that it is a neutral sight should make the game more indicative of the teams themselves and less influenced by external factors. The NFL has this thing called a playoff and it's considered the most important part of the season. CFB has this thing called "conference play" that is the most important part of the season. I don't buy that a neutral field is "more indicative of the teams themselves." For example, if a team can go on the road in bad weather and beat another good/great team, that says a lot more about the winning team's character to me. Florida's win at Tennessee was probably the Gators best win of the season. Florida's win over Georgia would have been more impressive had it come between the hedges. As it stands, that win was ugly. And oftentimes the neutral field is not really neutral. The Rose Bowl is on the West Coast. The Sugar Bowl is played in SEC-land. When Miami plays in the Orange Bowl, it plays in its home stadium. I could go on. By the way, if it were up to me, Lambeau Field and Soldier Field would host bowl games to even out the weather factor. For more on why bowls aren't always good indicators, I will refer to RDF's post, which sums it up pretty nicely. And if you look back in this thread (something you are fond of doing when I have predicted something wrongly), you'll see I do want the bowls to count. However, I think because the BCS more often than not is a failure at matching up the "best two teams in the nation," calling the #2 team "the best team in CFB in X year" is a misnomer. While we are on the subject of bowls, is anyone else as disgusted as I am with teams that have 6-6 records appearing in bowl games? The worst one, IMO, is Minnesota. Here are the Gophers' six wins. @ Kent State (6-6) 44-0 Temple (1-11) 62-0 North Dakota State (10-1 D-IAA) 10-9 Indiana (5-7) 63-26 @ Michigan State (4-8) 31-18 Iowa (6-6) 34-24 Combined record of the I-A schools Minnesota has played this year: 22-38 (.3667 winning %) Iowa, at 2-6 in a terrible conference (and a loss to Minnesota) is pretty bad, too. Part of the problem is number of bowl tie-ins. The Big Ten has 7 tie-ins for 11 teams, which allowed the above terrible teams to go to a bowl. The Pac-10 has five bowl tie-ins, so 6-6 Arizona and Washington State stayed at home. Other thoughts: RDF, I thought Nelson would win the trophy, too. I guess the video of Aaron Ross in the K-State game never made it to the members of the Thorpe committee. Florida "going right at" tOSU -- the "Urban Myth" offense is not well-designed to go "right at" anyone. Throw in a couple Chris Leak fumbles and Gators are history early. Still think Erickson is a good hire for ASU despite his past (though y'all threw some pretty good one-liners out there). He's never going to get offered another NFL job and he's won in the Pac-10 with Oregon State before.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 13, 2006 16:26:17 GMT -5
Hoyafan wrote:
you are the one that compared florida to 2002 osu, not me. if you knew anything, you'd see that osu didn't have nearly as many bad wins as florida does.
That is certainly debatable. Let me refresh your memory a bit.
Here are some scores from OSU's last National Title year:
23-19 over Cincy 19-14 over Wisconsin 13-7 over Penn. St. 10-6 over Purdue 23-16 over Illinois 14-9 over Michigan
That would be 6 games within a touchdown or less, and not everyone on that list is a powerhouse.
I looked back at the recaps and here are just a few details:
Ohio St. took the lead against Purdue with 1:36 left in the game. Purdue fell to 4-6, 2-4 in the Big Ten.
The Illinois game went to overtime and Illinois fell to 4-7, 3-4 in the Big Ten.
The Buckeyes took the lead from Cincy with 3:44 left in the game and in the last minute of play the Bearcats drove to the OSU 15 yard line and then dropped 2 sure TD passes in the endzone. Incidentally, I didn't bother seeing how Cincy finished the year, but that game dropped them to 1-3.
Penn. St. was certainly a quality opponent and was ranked 18th coming into the game. Still the Buckeyes had to overcome yet another 2nd half defecit.
Don't get me wrong. Hats off to that Buckeye team. They found a way to win. But to imply that our near losses don't mirror OSU somewhat is absurd. Our relatively close game with Vandy would easily parallel the Purdue or Illinois games. No one we were in a battle with was as bad as Cincy. Our cupcakes got routed. And finally we didn't get taken to overtime.
All I am saying is that much like OSU was winning ugly and thought to be drastically inferior to the mighty Canes that year. We have found ways to win ugly and are thought by most to be drastically inferior to the mighty Buckeyes.
To deny that much is just plain stupid.
Back in 2002, tOSU played all Tressel-ball, all the time. Last I checked, Urban Meyer doesn't game plan to win on a FG with less than a minute remaining. Any comparison of these two teams is flawed.
Actually I disagree totally with that. Urban Meyer is all about field position and putting our team in position to win the game at the end. In that regard he is very "02 Tressellesque." I don't think he would have a problem with a big lead early, but his style at least at Florida thusfar isn't suited for those types of games. He constantly stresses taking care of the ball and if we have to punt, then pin them back in their end and make them drive the whole length of the field. The problem we have is that if the game does come down to a field goal, it certainly doesn't favor us. We've only made 4 fielld goals all season against 9 misses I think.
MiamiHoya wrote:
After many years of being the only the third best team in the state, i guess it must feel nice to have the spotlight for once. Congratulations...you guys can drop your inferiority complex for a while.
Honestly, I used to think FSU fans were the worst and most disgusting football fans in the world, but you sure make a case for the gaytors.
You conveniently add the "y" to the mascot name and then cirticize me? Pot meet kettle.
The fault I find with most Miami fans is that they really aren't. At times like this they simply start wearing Miami Heat jersies. When they start winning again then they'll start crawling out from under their rocks and talking smack. Say what you will about Florida and Florida State fans, but by and large there is zero doubt who their team is. When we suffered through the 3 Zook years, we were still above everything Gators. Like part of the song goes: "in all kinds of weather, we'll all stick together .... for F-L-O-R-I-D-A!"
As for your comments about Bowl games, I pretty much agree in that aside from the Title game, the Bowl games just don't matter that much. I also agree with your point on road wins. It certainly does indicate a lot about a team to go on the road and beat a top notch opponent.
I'm not sure what your point is with regard to a "home field" advantage even at a "neutral" site. Sure, Miami in the Orange Bowl has an advantage. I mean heck, they'll have all 24,000 of their fans out there screaming for their team. In any case, my comments were pertaining to this year's BCS title game, and it should be fairly neutral. There might be a few more Buckeye fans than Gator fans since they knew they were going to be there a few weeks earlier, and might have even been counting on it every since the Texas game since the Michigan game was at the Horseshoe.
In any case, I will leave you with this one stat. At Florida in 2 short seasons, Urban Meyer is 16-0 when we have roughly half the fans or more. That includes all 13 home games, as well as 2 wins against Georgia and one against Iowa in the Outback Bowl.
Also, Urban Meyer coached teams (combining Bowling Green, Utah and Florida) are something like 9-0 when having more than one week to prepare.
Not to take anything away from Ohio St., but I like the way things stack up.
Incidentally, we have more than 20 people from our group going out to Glendale.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2006 16:36:14 GMT -5
Like part of the song goes: "in all kinds of weather, we'll all stick together .... for F-L-O-R-I-D-A!" That's adorable.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 13, 2006 16:50:53 GMT -5
Like part of the song goes: "in all kinds of weather, we'll all stick together .... for F-L-O-R-I-D-A!" That's adorable. You should see it between the third and fourth quarters with more than 90,000 arm-in-arm swaying back and forth. It's pretty impressive. Oh, wait a minute.... you were being sarcastic ...
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 13, 2006 18:01:06 GMT -5
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Dec 13, 2006 18:11:50 GMT -5
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miamihoya
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Post by miamihoya on Dec 13, 2006 21:57:29 GMT -5
I guess ASU won't have much of an offense next year...
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 14, 2006 17:29:10 GMT -5
Why in the heck would anyone go get the genius who created Miami's offense of the last few seasons? Their defense was the only thing remotely holding the team together ... well, that and Devin Hester for a couple of years.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 14, 2006 20:15:29 GMT -5
Hifi, do some damn homework before you make a jackass of yourself--again
He worked for Erickson at Miami back when they won National Championships--was just hired to coach at Miami again this year--didn't you read about the coaching changes at Miami in offseason? He was working with Minnesota Vikings last year and was hired to replace Werner who now is at Ole Miss and is being looked at by FSU.
There isn't much you can do without talent and Miami's poor recruiting on offensive side of ball has hurt them--they kept chasing the Hamburger All Americans and didn't get the playmakers that go unnoticed--the Santana Moss, Roscoe Parrish, Reggie Wayne types that weren't recruited highly at all.
For someone who "loves" CFB, you don't know much about any team outside of Florida--and what is even more odd is that you especially don't know much about the instate teams--why is that? No matter what FSU and Florida do--Miami is the prominent program in florida and when UF and FSU haven't combined to do what Canes have on the field--it's not debatable. Canes aren't that far from being back where they belong and I'll be very interested to see how the next UF-UM matchup turns out--have a feeling you will be surprised by the outcome and not very happy either.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 15, 2006 0:43:22 GMT -5
Hifi, do some damn homework before you make a jackass of yourself--again He worked for Erickson at Miami back when they won National Championships--was just hired to coach at Miami again this year--didn't you read about the coaching changes at Miami in offseason? He was working with Minnesota Vikings last year and was hired to replace Werner who now is at Ole Miss and is being looked at by FSU. There isn't much you can do without talent and Miami's poor recruiting on offensive side of ball has hurt them--they kept chasing the Hamburger All Americans and didn't get the playmakers that go unnoticed--the Santana Moss, Roscoe Parrish, Reggie Wayne types that weren't recruited highly at all. For someone who "loves" CFB, you don't know much about any team outside of Florida--and what is even more odd is that you especially don't know much about the instate teams--why is that? No matter what FSU and Florida do--Miami is the prominent program in florida and when UF and FSU haven't combined to do what Canes have on the field--it's not debatable. Canes aren't that far from being back where they belong and I'll be very interested to see how the next UF-UM matchup turns out--have a feeling you will be surprised by the outcome and not very happy either. RDF, sorry it took so long to get back to you. I KNOW he is a friend of Dennis Erickson. I also have a good hunch that this played into the decision. You as much as anyone should be slow to come to the "defense" of Olsen. If not ... why would you not be clamoring for his hire after Coker and not Shannon's? I don't deny the ... well, "lack" of talent would be too strong a word, and I am sure even you would agree ... still, I don't deny the drop off in the athletic ability which Coker inherited and what the Canes have now. That being said, we are talking about college football, and even though it all falls on the Head Coach, a competent staff in recruiting is absolutely a must. Now if you think that your "ex" OC was such a character, just say so. But don't say that the team was so bad because of the lack of talent but then defend the hire of one of the key cogs involved in that very process. Your opinion of Coker is well documented, as is your disgust for the Canes' offense of recent years. Therefore I would be somewhat amiss if I were to admit an understanding of your sudden enamoration with your former OC. All kidding aside, I know you were suggesting an answer to my (somewhat rhetorical) question as to "why " anyone and "who" would go after such an individual. I know the history. My point all along was that it was akin to "nepotism" except without the familial relationship. In other words, a "friend" for lack of a better word .... Sounds a lot like a selection a certain AD down this direction made upon the sudden departure of another head ball coach.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 15, 2006 1:15:32 GMT -5
He's not a friend--he coached with the damn guy and won games, why wouldn't Erickson want him on the staff? I don't care that he left Miami but to question why someone who has worked with a Coach--and that man gets another Head Coaching job and has openings is hired, do the math.
If you think this Miami offense has talent--you read too many recruiting tabloids and put too much into the "star" system. The best OL in the program is Jason Fox--a true Frosh, and he's out due to injury. Reggie Youngblood was supposedly the "best OL in country" and that kid has no heart or toughness. Rest of the OL is a bunch of fat slobs and need to shed lard.
The skill players? Sam Shields has promise. Ryan Hill is a DB masquerading at WR due to inept recruiting by Clappy and Staff. Ryan Moore is trash and should'n't have been recruited. Greg Olsen is talented but doesn't want it bad enough--and drops too many passes.
The best RB in the program is Javarris James--and he's nowhere near as talented as Graig Cooper--who UF is now recruiting too. If Canes get him-he'll play immediately.
The offensive recruiting was atrocious. Kyle Wright looks like a QB--in T-Shirt and Shorts and when you put pads on--he blows. Kirby Freeman is athletic but needs a lot of work and isn't type who can lead this program to a Championship without more talent around him--now that talent will be on the way but it's going to take good recruiting--not "star/hype" recruits to get this turned around. Ed Reed and Sean Taylor were No Star and 1 Star Recruits--Clinton Portis wasn't wanted by anyone. Santana Moss was not even ranked and neither was Reggie Wayne--you go find players and ignore the hype and mularkey and you will win quickly.
As for Olsen at Miami this year--we'll find out if it was him or if it's just fact the talent sucked so bad nobody could have made these stiffs look good. Probably a bit of both as things are never as good/bad as they seem, but Erickson is going to go with people who he knows/trusts and knows how he likes to do things--which isn't clean--as fellow Cane fans know--he was a disaster and caused many of the problems UM had with NCAA and school got what they deserved for hiring a man of no character.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 15, 2006 13:40:11 GMT -5
Fair enough. So it is your opinion that the offense was bad because they didn't have the talent. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. Maybe I confused you. I was pointing out that the talent now isN'T what it was before, and not nearly the level of what Coker inherited. That was the whole point. But it can't all fall on Coker can it? Do you really think Olsen was so great but was handcuffed in some manner by Coker? I don't. My whole point was that this guy was in charge of the Miami offense. As we all know, it was bad. Additionally, it wasn't as "talented" as other Cane teams or other college teams now. As an OC at a major college institution, you should certainly shoulder a big chunk of the responsibilty for bringing in the right/best guys. Obviously from your points, Olsen didn't do this, and he was recruiting at Miami! Now, he is suddenly going to be a good recruiter again trying to lure kids to Tempe? That doesn't float. Erickson hired him because of earlier relationships. I just don't think that is a good idea and have first hand experience. I don't think losing Olsen will hurt Miami a bit, and he might have been on the way out the door anyway. I am just pointing our the coaching carousel that continues even though the history would question such moves.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 15, 2006 13:56:04 GMT -5
Fair enough. So it is your opinion that the offense was bad because they didn't have the talent. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. Maybe I confused you. I was pointing out that the talent now isN'T what it was before, and not nearly the level of what Coker inherited. That was the whole point. But it can't all fall on Coker can it? Do you really think Olsen was so great but was handcuffed in some manner by Coker? I don't. My whole point was that this guy was in charge of the Miami offense. As we all know, it was bad. Additionally, it wasn't as "talented" as other Cane teams or other college teams now. As an OC at a major college institution, you should certainly shoulder a big chunk of the responsibilty for bringing in the right/best guys. Obviously from your points, Olsen didn't do this, and he was recruiting at Miami! Now, he is suddenly going to be a good recruiter again trying to lure kids to Tempe? That doesn't float. Erickson hired him because of earlier relationships. I just don't think that is a good idea and have first hand experience. I don't think losing Olsen will hurt Miami a bit, and he might have been on the way out the door anyway. I am just pointing our the coaching carousel that continues even though the history would question such moves. Again--if you did your homework, you'd know that Olsen wasn't announced until mid/late January after NFL season was over--and he didn't recruit at all as he was only at Miami for less then a year--he was QB Coach for the Minnesota Vikings last year--again I provided this above but it would be "beneath" you to actually read a post and figure some info out before blabbering on and on. Olsen did help recruit Nick Fannuzzi the Canes lone QB recruit and a nice prospect from Texas and he was also responsible for talking with current WR coach Marquis Mosley about WR recruits he thought Canes should target--and they've got an excellent group coming to Coral Gables. Mosley has an excellent track record developing WR's too--his latest pupil from his time at Northern Illinois is current Dallas Cowboy rookie Sam Hurd. Just because a team isn't as good, doesn't mean it's the Staff's fault. Coker is responsible for a lot of the talent Miami currently has and the offensive staff he fired a year ago is even more responsible--they did a horrible job. Olsen had no effect on last year's class and some on this year's which is more Miami like--less on big names and more on if you can play ball.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Dec 15, 2006 15:08:45 GMT -5
Miami may have not had the talent this season, but the offense rarely functioned effectively as unit. Rutgers doesn't have great O-Line talent, but when you watch the Scarlet Knights they run their blocking schemes right, and with a good RB it works. Based on the few games I saw, the same cannot be said of Miami in 2006.
While you have a point that it's not fair to judge Olson on the 2006 season, I think there is a question of whether his prior success was based on recruiting or coaching ability, and he isn't going to be getting early-90's-Miami-type talent out in the desert immediately.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Dec 15, 2006 15:30:46 GMT -5
Olsen did help recruit Nick Fannuzzi the Canes lone QB recruit and a nice prospect from Texas FWIW, Fannuzzi plays in what might be the best District in Texas HS Football right now. SA MacArthur, the runner-up in that district (Fannuzzi's team, Churchill, finished 3rd) plays in the state semifinals tomorrow night. I don't know that much about him, but he's playing against very good competition.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 15, 2006 15:59:54 GMT -5
RDF, fair enough. You basically place all of the blame on Coker and as a Miami fan I can't say that I blame you. We certainly placed a lot of the blame on Zook when he was here. But we were also very critical of both Zaunbrecher and Fedora as well, when they were our OC's. The difference in that case was that we had what the "experts" had said was 2 or 3 top ten recruiting classes and yet were not satisfied with the offensive production. The first year Zook-Brecher took the Heisman runner-up from the previous year and relegated him to the bubble screen. Especially on the heels of Spurrier's Fun and Gun the Natives were restless. But the point is that it wasn't just Zook who was taking the neat. If I remember correctly, Zaunbrecher was demoted from OC after just one season. Larry Fedora took over but something always seemed our of sinch. The offense much more resembled MTSU's which is where Fedora came from than Marshall's which is where Zaunbrecher came from. In any case, it didn't take long at all for the coordinators to catch their share of the heat.
That being said, is it safe to say that you were happy with Olsen and sad to see him leave? Do you think he would have gotten the job done in a couple of years? His first year directing the O was certainly uninspiring to put it mildly. But for someone who was so vocally critical of Miami and specifically the offense you sure seem to be giving him a pass. I am just curious. In any case, I still think that Erickson and Olsen will find it a bit more difficult to recruit as a Sun Devil than as a Cane, but programs have to start somewhere, so maybe in a few years we will be talking about what a great job they have done. But in my opinion the verdict is still out as far as Olsen as the OC is concerned. Austin made a great point with regard to the talkent level at Miami in the early 90's. You or I could have been successful directing some of those offenses.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 16, 2006 12:34:28 GMT -5
I didn't like Olsen to begin with-am glad he's gone, but I also dont' blame him for Miami's problems--he wasn't around long enough to be that big of a factor. I also was supporting the reasons Dennis Erickson would hire him--not that I agree with this decision, but it makes sense--many guys like to work with people they are familiar with in the Coaching profession-be it right or wrong.
Just was stating things I think based on being a fan of the program that was being talked about and why Erickson would hire him--which were both in question. Should have made it more clear that I was never in favor of the hire-but most coaches weren't going to Miami knowing that Clappy was on hot seat--why take a job where you would be looking for one a year later?--which eventually happened.
As I said--the Miami program has been recruiting poor offensive players to the program--and you referenced the old teams--well a lot of those kids weren't highly thought of by "gurus" and I've repeatedly said that Miami needs go back to recruiting like they used to-which is what Jimmy and Butch did--Erickson screwed up by taking too many kids outside of South Florida and too many "great talent/no character" guys which led to problems--wouldn't want those types back on campus and would rather lose 5 games a year then have some of the guys he had on campus. But the good kids/players were not highly thought of and had work ethic drive that made them better then what they were or took their games to another level.
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HealyHoya
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Post by HealyHoya on Dec 18, 2006 11:42:52 GMT -5
Beyond the (painfully) obvious, is there anyone of this board who actually wants to see UF beat OSU for the national title?
Second question, if UF beats OSU in an ugly, low scoring game (say, 10-7) and scUM takes out USC in the Rose Bowl, say, 42-10, do we have split national champions? Should we? I'd say yes.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 18, 2006 13:05:28 GMT -5
Why would there be a split champion when the team who would win the Rose Bowl couldn't beat the team that Florida would under that scenario? This is getting beyond ridiculous. I hate Florida, I hate Hifi, but not the point I'm going to give Michigan something they don't deserve. They had their chance on the field of play--they were an Arkansas win over UF away from getting rematch--it didn't happen--move on.
On flipside, what if Michigan gets beat by USC, and Ohio State blows out Florida--which could also very well happen, although I think Michigan is better then USC, I could see them Carr it up and lose. I fully expect Buckeyes to beat on Florida and rest of Big 10 to get destroyed, but who knows? Matchups in Bowls are funny things and a lot depends on who can prepare a team with long period off in between, what teams are disappointed/happy to be playing in the bowls they are in, etc... but this Michigan "wishful thinking" is getting sad--and I've been a supporter all year. Just take care of SC in the Rose Bowl and celebrate a great season.
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