HealyHoya
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Post by HealyHoya on Dec 18, 2006 13:17:17 GMT -5
Why would there be a split champion when the team who would win the Rose Bowl couldn't beat the team that Florida would under that scenario? This is getting beyond ridiculous. I hate Florida, I hate Hifi, but not the point I'm going to give Michigan something they don't deserve. They had their chance on the field of play--they were an Arkansas win over UF away from getting rematch--it didn't happen--move on. On flipside, what if Michigan gets beat by USC, and Ohio State blows out Florida--which could also very well happen, although I think Michigan is better then USC, I could see them Carr it up and lose. I fully expect Buckeyes to beat on Florida and rest of Big 10 to get destroyed, but who knows? Matchups in Bowls are funny things and a lot depends on who can prepare a team with long period off in between, what teams are disappointed/happy to be playing in the bowls they are in, etc... but this Michigan "wishful thinking" is getting sad--and I've been a supporter all year. Just take care of SC in the Rose Bowl and celebrate a great season. Ok...well, I guess your opinion is clear on that point. For the record, it was just a question put out there for discussion. The scenario isn't "wishful thinking" on my part nor am I a Michigan fan (as should have been somewhat evident from my use of scUM when referring to Michigan...). However, your opinion assumes that the voters are rational...therefore, I see, at the very least, an argument for the split to be made should the scenario unfold.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 18, 2006 14:09:50 GMT -5
Healy, that was not directed at you--but this "rule of thinking" that I've heard over and over being in heart of Big 10 country and how it's a "crime" that Michigan was not selected over Florida--that is why I took issue with it and should've made that more clear--my fault.
As for Big 10 fans--they debate this topic to no end but never bring up the fact the Wolverines had their chance--on the field of play against Ohio State--failed, didn't win their conference, and Florida did--as did USC, and if those teams lost, then Michigan would've rightfully had an argument in their favor. Up in Big 10 land, they also omit fact that the league sucked at a level that it hasn't seen in a long time--it was an awful conference and had 2 solid teams--I still doubt Wisconsin--seeing them get thoroughly outplayed in Madison against an Illinois team that self destructed or would've won by at least 2 TD's--Badgers are well coached and not very talented. I expect them to battle and get beat due to being too slow and not having enough playmakers--which sums up entire Big 10 outside of OSU and Michigan.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Dec 18, 2006 14:10:46 GMT -5
Michigan could fall back on the argument that they had to play Ohio State in Columbus while Florida got them on a neutral field, but I just don't see that argument having much appeal. If Florida wins, they'll get the national championship. What could be amusing, though, is seeing which team is ranked second. If there is any logic in the world, in would have to be Ohio State.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 18, 2006 15:06:28 GMT -5
Why would there be a split champion when the team who would win the Rose Bowl couldn't beat the team that Florida would under that scenario? This is getting beyond ridiculous. I hate Florida, I hate Hifi, but not the point I'm going to give Michigan something they don't deserve. They had their chance on the field of play--they were an Arkansas win over UF away from getting rematch--it didn't happen--move on. On flipside, what if Michigan gets beat by USC, and Ohio State blows out Florida--which could also very well happen, although I think Michigan is better then USC, I could see them Carr it up and lose. I fully expect Buckeyes to beat on Florida and rest of Big 10 to get destroyed, but who knows? Matchups in Bowls are funny things and a lot depends on who can prepare a team with long period off in between, what teams are disappointed/happy to be playing in the bowls they are in, etc... but this Michigan "wishful thinking" is getting sad--and I've been a supporter all year. Just take care of SC in the Rose Bowl and celebrate a great season. RDF, not surprisingly, I actually disagree with you to a degree. I think that IF Florida wins a close game like 10-7 and if Michigan wins big in the Rose Bowl, that we very well might see a split Championship. I honestly never accepted the validity of the "they had their chance" argument. That being said I still think that Florida did enough to deserve the shot and Michigan did almost enough. In all honesty if the Michigan-OSU game were the first of the year, like Miami-FSU and everything else had played out exactly like it did this season, then Michigan would probably be a few points ahead of Florida. I don't think they should be under that scenario but we are stuck witht he system we have. Given the tremendously slim margin Florida had over Michigan, I doubt that they would lead a Michigan team on an 11 game winning streak and with only a 3 point loss on the road to the unbeaten and consensus #1 team blemishing their record. Notice that I didn't say that there "should" be a split and I do think that after the fact the "they had their chance" argument could be valid. Should we win the game, even by one point on a questionable call, then the having had their chance point becomes more valid. In any case, the bottom line is that a narrow Florida victory coupled with a solid Wollverine victory will probably give us a split Championship. Granted, I would prefer to be the undisputed champion, but I would settle for that. Florida and Michigan could both lay claim to the title and both with deserving resume's .... plus the BCS would catch that much more sh!t for creating such a debacle and hopefully we would be one small step closer to a playoff.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 18, 2006 15:25:23 GMT -5
The fact is CFB at the D1 level will not be allowed to run a Playoff as we see it in NFL--the NFL would suffer financially and they'd hit CFB hard--all of the sudden you would have no eligibility requirement for Draft and players would be allowed to enter after 1/2 years (for those who don't know it's 3 years in school now in CFB) and it would hurt the College game greatly.
The system isn't bad now--it just needs to have some standards set to clear the air--for one thing, you shouldn't be eligible for a National Championship game if you:
1. Don't win your conference 2. Play any NON Division 1 opponent 3. Every League is Forced to Play Conference Title game or eliminate them completely
Now some would say it's unfair due to fact that you could have best two teams in country be from same league--well reason #3 takes care of that--if you have a Conference Title game in every league--no debate. If you have a teams playing 13 games while others play 12 as we do now--and in majority of cases those games pit top 25 opponents, why shouldn't the team playing extra game get in over team sitting at home? Pac 10 didn't have Conference title game but they forced their teams to play every team in conference in years there are 12 games scheduled--in comparison to scheduling some cupcake opponent.
Fact is, the bowls make CFB a ton of money--a Playoff would make money--but it would also cut into the NFL's television packaging--once CFB winds down, NFL goes to Thursday's and Saturdays in addition to traditional programming, and anything that cuts into their pocket will be destroyed--so they would look to hurt CFB and best way to do that--eliminate rule of being in school for 3 years prior to Draft Entry.
While I'd love to see a CFB playoff--it's not going to happen until they exhaust every way to make BCS work--you could see a Plus One added on in years it's needed--but you can't just have it in year there is one team left undefeated--it's not right to punish team who would go 12, 13, or 14-0 to play a team with 1 loss after they win a bowl game. In years everyone has a loss like in '03, then you can have Plus One game.
So I agree with fans, but thinking money wise and how greedy the NFL is, I think it'll not happen unless CFB asks NFL for help and accomodates them in timing--like having CFB Playoffs end in December and not run into January at all--and not having too many teams involved--certainly not as many as we see at lower divisions in CFB.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Dec 18, 2006 15:42:49 GMT -5
Healy, that was not directed at you--but this "rule of thinking" that I've heard over and over being in heart of Big 10 country and how it's a "crime" that Michigan was not selected over Florida--that is why I took issue with it and should've made that more clear--my fault. As for Big 10 fans--they debate this topic to no end but never bring up the fact the Wolverines had their chance--on the field of play against Ohio State--failed, didn't win their conference, and Florida did--as did USC, and if those teams lost, then Michigan would've rightfully had an argument in their favor. Up in Big 10 land, they also omit fact that the league sucked at a level that it hasn't seen in a long time--it was an awful conference and had 2 solid teams--I still doubt Wisconsin--seeing them get thoroughly outplayed in Madison against an Illinois team that self destructed or would've won by at least 2 TD's--Badgers are well coached and not very talented. I expect them to battle and get beat due to being too slow and not having enough playmakers--which sums up entire Big 10 outside of OSU and Michigan. I saw that Wisconsin-Illinois game and the badgers were lucky to get out with a win. However, I also saw the Illinois-Ohio State game and you can legitimatlely say that the buckeyes were lucky to escape with a win. Wisconsin is a good team with a future heisman winner at RB (PJ Hill) and an easy first round draft pick at the O line Joe Thomas (I'm guessing he'll be protecting Matt Leinhart next year). Wisconsin deserves to be in a BCS bowl more than Notre Dame does but saying that they'll get blown out is nothing new. Last year everyone thought that Auburn would destroy the defensively weak Wisconsin team in the Capital One Bowl but the badgers ended up dominating. I see the same happening this year against Arkansas (although unfortionatly I'll be at the Outback bowl to see my brother play in the halftime show)
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Dec 18, 2006 16:31:45 GMT -5
Logically, a split national championship shouldn't happen, but given the wishy-washiness of the voters this season I wouldn't rule it out completely. Still, I think for it to happen tOSU would have to lose on something crazy like a UF fumble return for a TD with tOSU running out the clock and Michigan would have to win by at least 28.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 18, 2006 16:58:41 GMT -5
I see your point on the surface, but I still think we are so far removed from the saturation point of meaningful games. If someone were to get hurt, it would be those division 2 and division 3 title games, which now take the spotlight as the only college football on at the time. There is no reason that they couldn't icorporate an 8 team playoff within the framework of the bowls we have now. It wouldn't affect any of the lesser bowls or the teams that currently fill them. Obviously at any cutoff point, there will be a team or two who just miss the cut as well as some that just make it. Like you said, nothing is perfect.
Still, if we have the top 8 teams in the BCS Playoff system, then there would really only be one added day which could potentially interfere with NFL games. You simply have the 4 BCS bowls as they are now, except play those games on or around Christmas. Then on or around New Year's you play the 2 semifinal games. Finally around January 8th (the date of this year's title game) you have the Championship game. Under this scenario, the main drawbacks would be these:
1)8 teams would have a game around Christmas, which could obviously be a conflict for some. Personally, I think this is a sacrifice that the vast majority of players and coaches selected for an 8 team playoff would be willing to make.
2)2 teams (the semi-final losers) would play one additional game from the current schedule. If this is that big of a deal, then you could eliminate the 12 (or 13th) games. We had an 11 game schedule for quite some time. Personally, I am all for more football, but if that is what makes the difference, then we could scale back to 11. For that matter, for some unknown reason, games against Hawaii don't count under certain circumstances. I know Hawaii played 13 games this season, without a Conference Championship. In any case, if the extra game matters that much then we could shave the 12th regular season game off.
3)2 teams (those playing for the title) would have yet another additional game. Like I said above, if we neeced to, we could cut back to 11 regular season games. Therefore you would have a maximum of 2 teams playing a maximum of 15 games instead of the current 14. With a 12 game schedule, a conference championship and a bowl game, there are a lot of teams playing 14 games presently. If you cut out the 12th game, then even with a conference championship and all three weekends in the BCS Championship series, only 2 teams would play 15 games. I think we could handle that.
4)The season would be "too long." Sorry, this is a totally bogus argument. Baseball and basketball are much longer already and play far more games on the road. Travel time etc... is managed somehow in these sports. This same reasoning debunks the bogus "time away from class" argument. I understand that these kids are "student-athletes" not "athlete-studenst." Still, there is zero credibility to the logica that one or even two more football games -- at least one of which would occur over the holiday break -- would place an undue scholastic burden on these kids.
There are a few other issues to deal with, and getting the graces of the NFL would certainly be advantageous for long term success, but I just don't see this as being prohibitive in any way.
Incidentally, if the Bowls wouldn't go for the idea of hosting the just the first round of games, only to be shown up the next two weeks, then you could address this problem in a number of ways. The simplest would be to add in 2 more bowls, maybe teh Cotton and the Gator for example. That would give you the six games which would make up the first two weekends and then an official Championship game, just like we do now. Obviously the title game would continue rotating through the BCS bowl Venues we have now.
I just don't see any real problems which would prohibit such a system if we really wanted it. Therefore, I can't help but think that the real reason is that someone -- probably the "suits" -- don't want a playoff.
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Post by heyheyhoyas on Dec 19, 2006 19:53:55 GMT -5
Miami will be back, but it will probably take longer than most anticipate. That program is an absolute shambles right now... BUT, I do like Shannon and think he's the right man for the job in Coral Gables. That said, Florida is going to be a powerhouse as long as Meyer is in Gainesville. The man can flat out recruit, and he's a tremendous motivator. Florida's always had the resources, and I think Meyer will take full advantage of it.
If there's one program in the state of Florida that should truly be worried, it's Florida State. Despite what most think, the problem is Bobby Bowden, not Jeff. As long as he's running the ship, Florida State will continue to wallow in mediocrity, IMHO.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Dec 19, 2006 22:02:51 GMT -5
heyhey, agree with you on the 'Noles and will add Bobby hasn't "run the ship" at FSU for years. The coordinators and the athletic department are left to attempt to control the flailing headless zombie.
Jim Harbaugh hired as new coach at Stanford.
BC hires Jeff "Who?" Jagodzinski.
TCU defense looking good against NIU. Frogs need to ditch Jeff Ballard at QB and run a less gimmicky offense though.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 19, 2006 22:22:12 GMT -5
Miami will be back, but it will probably take longer than most anticipate. That program is an absolute shambles right now... BUT, I do like Shannon and think he's the right man for the job in Coral Gables. That said, Florida is going to be a powerhouse as long as Meyer is in Gainesville. The man can flat out recruit, and he's a tremendous motivator. Florida's always had the resources, and I think Meyer will take full advantage of it. If there's one program in the state of Florida that should truly be worried, it's Florida State. Despite what most think, the problem is Bobby Bowden, not Jeff. As long as he's running the ship, Florida State will continue to wallow in mediocrity, IMHO. I think that FSU has been living on borrowed time for a while as well. Granted, I am far from making a valid objective opinion on the subject ... but still. I think that Miami had several almost innate advantages for a while. Initially they were, as Notre Dame still is, an independent. But unlike other independents, they were blessed with a wealth of talent in their backyard as well as a very attractive and appealing campus. Not to knock any of the successes that the likes of JJ and Erickson had at all. They did their job as well. Still, I think it was similar, although on an admittedly lesser scale, to the advantage that their baseball team had until just a couple of years ago. In the case of baseball, their talent pool was at an even greater advantage to that of the rest of the Country, plus there could be no discounting the impact of 50 games within 100 miles of your campus. That was an advatage that went away when they joined the ACC. Ironically, this also brought FSU back to the pack in a sense. FSU had the two edged benefit of being "in a conference" and yet having it almost gift wrapped for them in football, in addition to a big boost on the diamond. Yes, they were at a noticeable disadvantage in hoops, but they were willing to live with it. The point is that when the ACC expanded, that took away both of these built in advantages that the Noles and Canes had become so used to. I expect both to be solid programs but also expect both to experience the "other" end of the cycle with much greater frequency than before. Shannon will do well, but I think that the days of "doing well" at Miami being an almost open invitation for a Championship opportunity are over. As a Gator duing the Spurrier era, I am well aware of that. Year in and year out we were one game away from playing for a Championship but only had that chance twice. I am not in any way taking Meyer for granted, but I do expect a similar performance to those days in the future. Still, you are one Auburn game this year ... one Tennessee game in '01 ... one FSU game in '94 ... etc... from a shot at #1 and "just another bowl game."
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Post by heyheyhoyas on Dec 19, 2006 23:10:50 GMT -5
Florida, Florida State, and Miami simply won't dominate like they used to... way too much parity in CFB nowadays. Hell, Wake Forest made a freakin' BCS Bowl for christ sake. Not to knock Wake, it's a great school with a beautiful campus, but when it comes to football, they are on the lower rung.
USC's recent string of dominance aside, there are many more teams in the running today than there was 10-20 years ago. I do think Florida will be a top flight program year after year under Meyer, though... I think that highly of his coaching ability. I lived in Bowling Green when he originally took over at the school, and the turnaround he made there was simply amazing. He's a damn good coach and Florida is lucky to have him.
I think Miami will be fine in the long run as well, but I don't think they'll be back in national title contention by 2008, as RDF suggests. Florida State is the Florida school I'm truly worried about. As any Florida fan should know, it's nearly impossible to follow a legend (Zook). The 'Noles will eventually get back to prominence, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if they were a mediocre football program for the next 5 years or so.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 20, 2006 3:31:58 GMT -5
RDF,
What you describe is exactly why it flabbergasted me why FSU, Va Tech and Miami would all want Miami and Va Tech to join the ACC. FSU owned the ACC. Miami and Va Tech only had each other as real competition in the BE. Did they want to win less and go to worse bowl games? Even if the programs hasn't receded for other reasons, FSU was going to be worse with them in conference. They had nowhere to go but down.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 20, 2006 7:54:37 GMT -5
What you describe is exactly why it flabbergasted me why FSU, Va Tech and Miami would all want Miami and Va Tech to join the ACC. FSU owned the ACC. Miami and Va Tech only had each other as real competition in the BE. Did they want to win less and go to worse bowl games? They did it for the same reason Boston College jumped ship and why Oklahoma and Nebraska traded in the success of the Big 8 for the uncertainty of the Big 12: money. The drive for conference championship games and the undercurrent of distancing "big time" programs from less committed schools to increase revenues broke apart the Southwest Conference, obliterated the days of Eastern independent football, and came thisclose to destroying the Big East. And there are still fans out there fans who wouldn't hesitate to kick schools like Georgetown to the curb and form a 12 team all-sports Big East. They're the same folks who would have done the same to Wake Forest had the chance presented itself.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Dec 20, 2006 11:09:22 GMT -5
who the hell did wisconsin beat?
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Dec 20, 2006 11:38:38 GMT -5
who the hell did wisconsin beat? Who the hell did Notre Dame beat?
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 20, 2006 13:04:49 GMT -5
Wisconsin has ZERO quality wins this year and one quality loss in Michigan.
Notre Dame has two quality losses in Michigan and Notre Dame. I don't have their schedule in front of me, but is Navy really their biggest win on the year?
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Post by williambraskyiii on Dec 20, 2006 13:29:02 GMT -5
ucla jerkoff
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 20, 2006 13:47:06 GMT -5
And they beat Georgia Tech in opening game due to the inept play of Reggie Ball or they'd have lost that. And if UCLA doesn't go into a soft zone, they win in South Bend. Irish should have 4 losses, but were benefit of "BALLIN'"--take that Jim Jones and Dip Set!
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 20, 2006 14:53:47 GMT -5
sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/sioncampus/12/18/bowl.preview/index.html Quote: Emerald Bowl Florida State vs. UCLA San Francisco, CA. -- Dec. 27
Because of money issues, Florida State will not send its 400-person marching band to the game, and will likely hire a local band as it did earlier this season against N.C. State. FSU administrators say they're already spending too much money sending people who will not directly help the team win -- such as the offensive line. Pick: UCLAMaybe they should hire a local offensive line too.
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