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Knicks
Jun 26, 2006 18:49:58 GMT -5
Post by RockawayHoya on Jun 26, 2006 18:49:58 GMT -5
RDF and Giga, I hope you remember the Knicks led in that series 3-2 vs. Houston and had a great chance to take either Game 6 or 7 on the road, they lost Game 6 by a bucket or two and Game 7 only because Starks had the worst timing ever to shoot the worst game of his life in a game they lost by what, 6-8 points? Sure, his supporting cast wasn't as good as MJ's or Olajuwon's, but it was GOOD ENOUGH to win a championship. Ewing was a great player (I'm not arguing against that all), but saying his supporting cast did nothing to help him win 55-60 games year in and year out and go deep in the playoffs during the Riley years is absurd. Had they won either of those games (and we're not even talking about the blown 2-0 lead on the Bulls in '93, which was another heartbreaker that shouldn't have happened), we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now.
Perhaps it was a bit harsh of me to say that Patrick cost himself to win a title (that was a comment I made because I was angry with the previous post that insinuated the Knicks front office was to blame for them never winning a title), but there's no way in hell you can convince me that this team wasn't good enough to win at least one championship from '93-'95. Maybe the brand of basketball they played wasn't aesthetically pleasing to the eyes, but they were a tenacious bunch who cared about winning and putting forth maximal effort, which as a fan is all you can ask for. They were a possession or two away each time and came up just short. It happens.
As for the '94 Sonics... if they were really the best team in the league, they simply don't lose 3 straight to the Nuggets, who were what, barely .500 that year? I'm sorry, but any team that loses 3 straight in a row to that team has no business being even in the discussion for best team in the league. And the Rockets were not "way better" than the Knicks, as that 7 game series (with most if not all games being close and competitive) demonstrated. It could've gone either way.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,487
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Knicks
Jun 26, 2006 19:29:20 GMT -5
Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jun 26, 2006 19:29:20 GMT -5
Maybe they weren't "way" better, but as RDF points out, look at the gamers on that team versus the chokers on the Knicks. Cassell, Elie, Horry, Thorpe, Smith-these are guys who consistently hit big shots not only for the Rockets but also for other teams throughout their respective careers. The Rockets were a better team and they proved it by repeating as champs.
I'm fine with the fact the Knicks might have been good enough to win a championship had everything fallen into place. I can't say they were ever the best team in the league or the frontrunner for a title. They didn't have a guard who could shoot until Ewing's 12th year in the league.
Put it this way, the best guard Ewing played with under Riley was John Starks (so good he just beats out a season-and-a-half of an ancient Derek Harper). That's like Olajuwon's best guard being Vernon Maxwell. But that wasn't the best guard on Akeem's teams. He played with Kenny Smith, Sam Cassell, and then Clyde Drexler the next year. They're each better than the best guard on any of those Knicks teams. That's why they won titles. The Knicks got a clue that you need an actual guard when Van Gundy arrived. By then Ewing's best years were behind him.
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,124
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Knicks
Jun 26, 2006 21:05:36 GMT -5
Post by RBHoya on Jun 26, 2006 21:05:36 GMT -5
While some Knick fans may have history a little twisted, suggesting that Ewing didn't step up to bring the championship back to New York.... I think some Hoya fans definitely underestimate the abilities of some of his fellow Knicks in an effort to push the blame for those teams' inability to win it all onto the organization, rather than Pat himself.
While Starks, Oak, and Mase weren't Hall of Famers, they were all all-stars at different points in their careers. Harper was one of the best players to never be an all-star. LJ was a stud, and Houston and Spree were pretty good in Ewing's twilight years.
The truth is, Ewing was a great player, a Hall of Fame Player, and one of the 2 greatest players in the History of Knicks basketball. But he couldn't beat Jordan. And he couldn't outdo Hakeem and Hakeem's team during his best chance. There is no shame in that. Really.
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,124
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Knicks
Jun 28, 2006 11:58:10 GMT -5
Post by RBHoya on Jun 28, 2006 11:58:10 GMT -5
RB, it seems we've led parallel lives, growing up rooting for the same teams and all. And I'm also one who has seen the Hoyas displace the Knicks as my favorite basketball team. But that doesn't mean the Knicks will ever be replaced as my favorite NBA team, no matter how Edited poor the effort of their players are or how moronic the front office of the organization is. Sure, its hard to root for any of the current Knicks because of their effort and attitude, but I'm still always going to want the guy wearing blue and orange to score and the guys wearing the other jersey to be stopped from scoring. That doesn't mean I have to openly root for guys like Marbury and Francis to have career years or to succeed individually like I do for AI and Sweetney, it just means I want the team I root for to win. I can see the validity in your point about being able to relate to the players being extremely important as a fan, but just because you can't relate to the players for a couple of years doesn't give you the right to give up on your team, in my opinion. If that were the case, there would be several franchises in pro sports without any fan bases. By saying you'd rather root for the team which includes a guy or two you can relate to and calling them your new "favorite," you'd be rooting for that said team whenever they play the Knicks. I think that directly goes against what it means to be a fan of a team in the first place. You stick with them through whatever it is they go through. Both the good and the bad (and the really REALLY bad). Dolan and Isiah won't be there forever. Neither will Starbury and Franchise. Sure, it may take more than a few years to get straightened out. But I can't in my right mind turn my back on the one franchise I've rooted passionately for my entire life which has provided me with many of my best memories growing up just because I can't relate to any of the players on the team. Up until a few years ago I would have completely agreed with you. For a long time, I had that same philosophy--you NEVER abandon your team, regardless of how bad it gets. To do so was to be a "bad fan". A "good fan" sticks with their team regardless. But then I got a little bit older and realized that there wasn't really any justification for such labels, other than that's what I was taught by my father and grandfather as a kid. And now, I just think there is more to sports than rooting for a jersey (which is actually pretty silly when you stop and think about it). I mean, there are a lot of people who take that point of view, and that's cool. But really, what decides what makes a fan good and what makes a fan bad, other than convention? While your point about this idea potentially leading to many teams with very few fans is true... I might argue that that would be the result of the team being bad by bringing in players to whom their fans could not relate, rather than the fans being bad for forsake a team full of men they couldn't relate to at all. And that's actually what I think has happened with the Knicks. We had a good relationship for a while there, where they had a team full of players I liked and respected, and I in turn supported them by coming to their games, watching them on tv, buying their jerseys and merchandise, etc. But now they've let me down by assembling a team full of guys I can't stand. So it seems as if they failed me, rather than vice versa. Sometimes I feel like I should still owe them my loyalty because of all I got out of watching "the old Knicks" as a kid. But really, I don't owe the organization. I owe Ewing, and Starks, and Oakley, LJ, and Spree and Houston and all those guys.... and I owe Riley, and Van Gundy. And maybe some guys in the front office, like Dave Checketts. But all those guys are gone now. So whom do I owe? The jersey? The building? the logo? I mean, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that those inanimate objects won't miss me too much if I start rooting for somebody else. All that said, I'll be pulling for them to get their act together and get back on track. I liked what they did in last year's draft a lot. They have some good young pieces in place... Frye should be a good starting power forward for years to come, and Lee and Nate will both be really nice players off the bench. Ideally I'd like to see them land Lowry from Villanova, who I think epitomizes the Knicks spirit, and maybe the guy from Africa, Saer Sene, who's very defensive minded and would be a great compliment to Frye once he learns the game a little better. Then, get rid of at least one of Steph/Francis, and ideally Curry too (I've pretty much always hated that guy, dating back to his starring role on the show Preps). Here's hoping.
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Knicks
Jun 28, 2006 15:36:03 GMT -5
Post by RockawayHoya on Jun 28, 2006 15:36:03 GMT -5
Agree with your entire post, RB. Just a minor point:
You're totally correct that you don't owe the jersey, the building, the logo, or the organization anything. But at least for yourself and myself who live in the NY area/vicinity, we owe our local sports franchise our support, because they represent our city. Sure, you could make the argument that by that statement we should be Nets fans, but that's besides the point (I'd consider any stadium that I can get to within 45 minutes local). It's why I've always resented being called a bandwagon or a fairweather fan when I let people know I'm a Yankee fan. I stuck with them when they were horrible in the late 80's-early 90's, just like I have with the Knicks for the past few years and will continue doing so. I think being a fan during the tough years makes you appreciate it all the more when your team finally does come through (am I right, Boston fans?).
As for tonight's draft: I don't believe Sene will be on the board at 20, but he would be a good project to develop at that point in the draft. I'm not a fan of Lowry. I wouldn't have a problem with a guy like Shawne Williams, who is really athletic and can at least block a few shots. But I will jump off a bridge if they draft another 2 guard or SF (unless Carney somehow falls to them). In any case, it's pretty much a crapshoot at 20 and 29. Hopefully they can just get lucky and find someone who can be a solid pro, preferably someone with size who can play more than an ounce of defense.
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Knicks
Jun 28, 2006 15:42:06 GMT -5
Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jun 28, 2006 15:42:06 GMT -5
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,736
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Knicks
Jun 28, 2006 16:24:51 GMT -5
Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 28, 2006 16:24:51 GMT -5
That the 1994 Knicks "should have won the title" is absurd. The 1994 Rockets shouldn't have even won the title and they were way better than the Knicks. Nobody could even touch the incredible choking Sonics that season. They were far and away the best team in the league. I still can't believe they blew three straight. Add in the fact that if Jordan hadn't retired, the Bulls would've won that year anyway.
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FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
Posts: 4,544
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Knicks
Jun 28, 2006 16:52:44 GMT -5
Post by FLHoya on Jun 28, 2006 16:52:44 GMT -5
I think being a fan during the tough years makes you appreciate it all the more when your team finally does come through (am I right, Boston fans?). Or, ummmmm, you know...fans of Georgetown basketball from the Esherick Era. I'm still not convinced you weren't crying while typing the recap of your trip to Dayton. Pretty much the entire philosophical discussion RBHoya just had can be explained through anecdotes of arguments on Hoyatalk and in the student section/buses during the months of January-March 2004. You are correct (in my opinion anyways) about loyalty to one's home region being a particularly important factor in team support through all types of success/non-success. It worked out weird for me, in that I actively dislike all the pro teams in my home region, but instead developed a liking for another city based on becoming a fan of that city's sports teams...and wouldn't ya know it, this summer I finally get to test the whole "support them through bad times" thing with the Braves. I have practice in this area though. I'm gonna go stock up on hard liquor and probably some cleaning products with harsh chemicals to help usher in the inevitable "SheWill" era in the A-T-L.
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Hank Scorpio
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
You're gonna die now!
Posts: 573
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Knicks
Jun 28, 2006 22:08:33 GMT -5
Post by Hank Scorpio on Jun 28, 2006 22:08:33 GMT -5
holy crap. i agree with RDF! while i won't go as far as to say that Starks, Oakley, Mason, etc were garbage, i will say that Ewing's supporting cast was nowhere near as good as that of other superstar's in the league. Jordan played with another hall of famer...what did ewing have? Starks and Oak were fan favorites because of the way they played the game, but they were not talented players by any stretch. By the time the Knicks put some decent backcourt talent on Ewing's squad [Houston, Sprewell], Ewing was on the downside of his career. [as an aside, i think if that brawl vs miami doesn't happen in 97, the knicks would have made a very serious run at MJ and the bulls]. David Robinson faced a similar fate in San Antonio, as Vinny Del Negro and Sean Elliott were his #2 and 3 players. The Spurs have done a 10000% better job with surrounding Duncan with talent. RDF, my question to you is, you KILL kevin garnett for not delivering...hasn't he suffered the same fate as Ewing did in NY? How the hell are the Knicks responsible for ruining Ewing's chances to win a title? They surrounded him with a team that should have won at least one title (were it not for "2 for 18" and Ewing's own blown missed finger roll against Indiana) and a coach (Riley) who had proven (including recently) that he had the goods to be a coach who could lead them to a championship. Don't get me wrong, I've been a lifelong Knicks fan and I love Patrick as a player. He did a lot of great things for us and our franchise, but if anything, Patrick cost himself the chance to win an NBA title when he failed to show up in some big games and some clutch situations. I would love to see Roy in a Knicks uniform. And I'm praying that Isiah's newfound coaching duties will at least prevent him from spending too much time to pursue horrendous deals that will set back the Knicks for another few years. I'm prepared to sit through 3-4 years of 25 win seasons as long as we don't add any more bad contracts. I just hope our front office is willing to do the same. The Knicks surrounded Ewing with TRASH/GARBAGE until he was old and on his last legs--as a legit player. I don't want to hear about clowns like Starks and Mason--they were/are CBA level talent and had no business being on the stage they were which was more a result of Riley/Goon Ball with Knicks then anything. Ewing had to carry washed up CRAP and talentless goons against Michael Jordan in his prime with Pippen, Horace Grant, and guys who fit roles and could actually play basketball. When he got to face the Rockets and one of the greatest to ever play in Olajuwon--who also happened to have help with likes of Thorpe, Elie, Smith, Horry, Cassell, which is not to damn bad when you compare what Ewing was playing with--but I digress. The missed layup was a terrible moment for Ewing but then again he was beat up and never mentioned it--unlike today's athletes who have the built in excuse BEFORE the game starts in case they fail. As for the silly guarantees-that was tired/old but then again what are athletes supposed to do--say they'll lose? I'll defend Ewing to the grave because so many Knick fans act as if he'd never stepped up--well the guy was going into shootouts with a plastic knife in terms of supporting cast and when he finally got a group who fit what he needed--he was on his last legs--the achilles and without Ewing that year they never beat Heat and get out of 1st Round--but that is always ignored by Knick fans who think they were "better" without him. Yeah, nothing like Charles Smith missing a friggin layup over and over, or having John Starks decide your fate in Playoffs. Compare that to having kickouts to likes of Horry, Cassell, Elie but then again what have they ever done since that series??
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Knicks
Jun 28, 2006 22:19:58 GMT -5
Post by RDF on Jun 28, 2006 22:19:58 GMT -5
holy crap. i agree with RDF! while i won't go as far as to say that Starks, Oakley, Mason, etc were garbage, i will say that Ewing's supporting cast was nowhere near as good as that of other superstar's in the league. Jordan played with another hall of famer...what did ewing have? Starks and Oak were fan favorites because of the way they played the game, but they were not talented players by any stretch. By the time the Knicks put some decent backcourt talent on Ewing's squad [Houston, Sprewell], Ewing was on the downside of his career. [as an aside, i think if that brawl vs miami doesn't happen in 97, the knicks would have made a very serious run at MJ and the bulls]. David Robinson faced a similar fate in San Antonio, as Vinny Del Negro and Sean Elliott were his #2 and 3 players. The Spurs have done a 10000% better job with surrounding Duncan with talent. RDF, my question to you is, you KILL kevin garnett for not delivering...hasn't he suffered the same fate as Ewing did in NY? The Knicks surrounded Ewing with TRASH/GARBAGE until he was old and on his last legs--as a legit player. I don't want to hear about clowns like Starks and Mason--they were/are CBA level talent and had no business being on the stage they were which was more a result of Riley/Goon Ball with Knicks then anything. Ewing had to carry washed up CRAP and talentless goons against Michael Jordan in his prime with Pippen, Horace Grant, and guys who fit roles and could actually play basketball. When he got to face the Rockets and one of the greatest to ever play in Olajuwon--who also happened to have help with likes of Thorpe, Elie, Smith, Horry, Cassell, which is not to damn bad when you compare what Ewing was playing with--but I digress. The missed layup was a terrible moment for Ewing but then again he was beat up and never mentioned it--unlike today's athletes who have the built in excuse BEFORE the game starts in case they fail. As for the silly guarantees-that was tired/old but then again what are athletes supposed to do--say they'll lose? I'll defend Ewing to the grave because so many Knick fans act as if he'd never stepped up--well the guy was going into shootouts with a plastic knife in terms of supporting cast and when he finally got a group who fit what he needed--he was on his last legs--the achilles and without Ewing that year they never beat Heat and get out of 1st Round--but that is always ignored by Knick fans who think they were "better" without him. Yeah, nothing like Charles Smith missing a friggin layup over and over, or having John Starks decide your fate in Playoffs. Compare that to having kickouts to likes of Horry, Cassell, Elie but then again what have they ever done since that series?? Garnett's been out of the First Round ONCE-- and that's in 11 years. As much as those get on Ewing, even they know he carried them to many Playoff wins--Garnett's been involved with one Playoff successful run and was outplayed in a decisive game by Slava Medvedenko with Shaq and Kobe on the Bench. End of discussion.
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Knicks
Jun 28, 2006 23:22:47 GMT -5
Post by RockawayHoya on Jun 28, 2006 23:22:47 GMT -5
All of you are essentially saying the same thing I've already admitted: Ewing's supporting cast wasn't as strong as Olajuwon's or Jordan's. But the argument was whether or not they were good enough to win a championship: losing Game 6 in the NBA Finals by 2 points with a 3-2 lead in the series should have closed that argument that they were GOOD ENOUGH to win the title with that team. They didn't need a ton of breaks to go their way to have an outside shot; they just needed one more.
Borat, good point you bring up about the '97 brawl vs. Miami. PJ Brown is still atop my sh_t list for pulling that crap.
As for tonight... Renaldo Balkman... the only thing I can say is, at least he's already in the States. That's about the only thing that keeps him below Frederic Weis on the list of crappiest 1st round draft picks ever.
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TigerHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,808
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Knicks
Jun 29, 2006 7:12:02 GMT -5
Post by TigerHoya on Jun 29, 2006 7:12:02 GMT -5
The comedy routine among the ESPN analysts all night after the Balkman pic was hilarious.
I just feel sorry for the Knicks fans now. Instead of just getting a crappy pick, they now get saddled with the Chicken Curse (ask pro teams that have had Sterling Sharpe, Duce Staley or other SC players how well they've done post-season as a whole.)
At least Balkman has played 4 games in the Garden the past 2 years and was MVP of the NIT this year. Too bad for Knicks fans that he didn't want to go for the NIT 3peat.
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,906
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Knicks
Jul 4, 2006 10:12:42 GMT -5
Post by Filo on Jul 4, 2006 10:12:42 GMT -5
If you haven't seen it fron the other thread, for those fellow long-suffering Knicks fans... Simmons' draft day diary is hilarious. Excerpts:
And that brings us to our featured attraction of the evening ...
"THE KNICKS ARE ON THE CLOCK!"
ESPN wisely works the MSG crowd into a hostile frenzy by showing the obligatory "KNICKS UNDER ISIAH THOMAS" graphic. Has there ever been rioting at an NBA draft before?
and
OF COURSE Isiah was meant to coach this team as his final job in the NBA before retiring to a life of greeting people at casinos and doing informercials. If somebody clogs your toilet, you ask him to clean up the mess. That's just the way life works. I'm telling you, we're going to remember the Isiah/Knicks Era the same way we remember things like Enron, the Hindenberg and the Bay of Pigs. It's reached that level. I don't know what else to say. Honestly. I have Knicks fans e-mailing me every day asking me if it's OK to root against their own team. What else can you say at this point?
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