Red Card to Mastroeni

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

I've been hearing from friends and my best friend TV that Mastroeni didn't deserve that red card. I'm going to politely diagree for a few reasons:

1) The US didn't appeal it.

2) Foreign press who actually cover soccer on a regular basis. Here's what they had to say:

The Times Of London:
There were 34 fouls, some of them disgraceful. There were three red cards, all of them justified, and three more yellow cards that might have turned the deeper colour... the players gave the Uruguayan referee Jorge Larrionda no option but to send off three players...
And neither were the Americans. Pablo Mastroeni lunged into a two-footed tackle on the shin of Andrea Pirlo — so late and so vicious, it was a wonder there was no breaking of bone — and was dismissed...
Pope launched a reckless tackle from behind on Gilardino. What could he expect but another yellow card, the clear diktat before this tournament began?

The Guardian
[Mastroeni ]was dismissed for a late lunge at Pirlo's ankle. It was one of the aspects Fifa asked its officials to clamp down on and referee Jorge Larrionda was left no option with either sending-off.

El Pais (Spain)
Al rato, una espeluznante entrada de Mastroeni a Pirlo equilibró las cosas. (Mastroeni’s horrifying tackle on Pirlo evened the field.)

Clarin (Argentina)
Mastroeni fue tan torpe como De Rossi y emparejó el tablero. (Mastroeni was as clumsy as De Rossi and evened the field.)

And Univision commentators calling the game live called Mastroeni’s tackle “criminal”.

3. The replay itself. Watch the YouTube link and you can clearly see that Mastroeni doesn't even begin his slide until the Italian player has played the ball and its cleats up with both feet.

[hifigator]

Wow, I am kind of surprised to see read those quotes. Obviously we are a little biased here, and honestly I don't watch a lot of soccer other than the World Cup every four years, but from my little experience it was the worst call of that sort I have ever seen. Was it a foul ... sure. But it was very questionable as to whether it warranted even a yellow card. One friend of mine who is an absolutely huge soccer fan thought the call was atrocious. He's not even a big time US fan. His favorite team is Brazil. He has been clamoring for them to start Rubino for months. But I digress. For the record, he also didn't think Wade was fouled either.

That is pretty interesting to see the call get that much support internationally.

[miamihoya]

Its really not that suprsing to the international press support the refs call...they aren't exactly pro-USA. I personally think it was a yellow card at best and highly questionable. That being said, it wasnt the worse call the ref made in the game. His second yellow on Pope, which led to his expulsion, was much worse.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

yeah i have to a gree with Miami no one likes america of course the foreign press is going to condem the US player. This was defeintly a yellow card. It's simply a late tackle nothing more. I disagree that mastroeni doens't start his slide until the ball is played that just isn't true wathc the replay again. He definetly deserved a yellow card for that tackle but not a red that was very harsh.

[RockawayHoya]

Not only are the foreign papers not pro-USA, but it's clear they don't respect us either. Wasn't it the Italians who went on record as saying that they didn't even know our players' names? To them, US soccer is still a joke, although we have made great improvements over the past decade. It's not surprising at all that they would bash us in print if they got the chance (and they did).

But, just like many others have already pointed out, that was the lamest red card of the tournament. It should have been a yellow at best.

[FLHoya]

Although one point I've heard from several commentators is valid (as much as I don't like it and, as a former ref, don't want to admit that's the case): Pablo should have known better than to go reckless with a tackle and put himself in position to get red carded. Was it a red card-able offense? In my opinion, no. But I often begrudgingly "defend" Big East basketball refs by pointing out that if an official is calling a game a certain way, it's on the player to recognize it and adjust, no matter how crappy the official. Same deal in soccer. As silly as it sounds that you should be careful about fouling someone hard b/c a ref is just searching for a chance to even out a 11 v. 10 situation, that's the unfortuate reality.

Also, you should probably learn how to dive.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

Look, I didn't think so either but go to the YouTube video and stop it at 57 seconds and tell me what you see, because I see the ball leaving the frame and Mastroeni just hitting the Italian player with a cleets up 2 legged tackle.

[washingtonhoya]

I just watched the replay for around the 20th time and I see Mastro already into his slide, not yet into Pirlo, before Pirlo even makes his first touch. Pirlo's first touch wasn't a pass, so I think it's disingenuous to say he'd already played the ball when Mastroeni slid into him. I also see Pirlo spread out in full Sonny-Corleone-at-the-toll-booth sprawl in midair, and then instantly grab at his knee despite Mastro's tackle being on his ankle.

Should Mastro have avoided the tackle if he knew the ref was looking for a make-up call? Definitely, but there's that thing about hindsight and vision that I'm sure everyone knows. Despite FL's point, the context of the call shouldn't be an excuse for pure incompetence on the part of the referee. I don't think this is "the US got screwed, everyone hates us" logic either, Italy has some legitimate gripes as well, esp. the errant offside calls which despite being made by the linesmen, can be and would have been overturned by a better ref. Larrionda was an inconsistent buffoon and shouldn't be allowed near an important match again.

[SFOHoya]

One point that has not been adequately made in regards to the tackle is that FIFA (and its refs) make a distinction between a two legged slide tackle and a one legged slide tackle. You go in with 2 feet (and from hehind, and cleats up, and arguably late) you will get a yellow card everytime and a red card some of the time.

Pope deserved the 2nd yellow, I'd be more apt to argue the 1st one. While I'm at it, the Italian team deserved half a dozen cards for diving and writhing around like trout. I was very disappointed in their sissified play. FIFA should doel out yellows/reds after the games for fouls that were, upon review, found to be dives or exagerations.

As for the foreign media, with all due respect, what has US soccer done at the WC to deserve respect? They're not treated at the Togo / TNT level, and they're not at the elite level. Doing well (i.e., reaching the Quarters) in one WC is not enough. In that case, what about SKorea? They finished 4th in the last WC and get less respect (deservedly so, IMO).

After losing 3-0 to the Czechs, people here were saying the US was over-rated (and they probably were, given that the BCS-like FIFA rankings had them at 4 or 5). ESPN is just trying to appeal to US pride to bump up the ratings.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

st. pete you seem to be mistaking starting a slide with making contact obviously he makes contact after the ball has left the player that's why it should've been a yellow card cause it was a late tackle arguably cleats up but was from the side not from behind which is slightly better.

We could start a whole thread about whether the US mens soccer team deserves respect/ what they have to do to earn respect/ the flaws of the fifa rankings. I do think that the US is on the right track but still need to achieve more consistantly before they get more respect. advancing from this group of death would go a long way in that regards but unfortuanately that's not going to happen because the czechs and the US can't both realistacally advance so that means the US is going to be left behind. Don't worry i'm still rooting for the US to win over Ghana it'll mean the czechs only have to tie italy to advance.

[SFOHoya]

I love the german play by play guy on the utube clip. I don't understand a word of it except for AAAH! ROT CARTE! ROT?! (sp)

[FLHoya]

washingtonhoya said:

I just watched the replay for around the 20th time and I see Mastro already into his slide, not yet into Pirlo, before Pirlo even makes his first touch. Pirlo's first touch wasn't a pass, so I think it's disingenuous to say he'd already played the ball when Mastroeni slid into him. I also see Pirlo spread out in full Sonny-Corleone-at-the-toll-booth sprawl in midair, and then instantly grab at his knee despite Mastro's tackle being on his ankle.

Should Mastro have avoided the tackle if he knew the ref was looking for a make-up call? Definitely, but there's that thing about hindsight and vision that I'm sure everyone knows. Despite FL's point, the context of the call shouldn't be an excuse for pure incompetence on the part of the referee. I don't think this is "the US got screwed, everyone hates us" logic either, Italy has some legitimate gripes as well, esp. the errant offside calls which despite being made by the linesmen, can be and would have been overturned by a better ref. Larrionda was an inconsistent buffoon and shouldn't be allowed near an important match again.

What's always interesting about these discussions is that...even with the video...you can get two opposite viewpoints of what transpired. Rockaway will remember (probably, maybe, possibly?) our disagreement over Ashanti Cook's intentional foul at the end of the West Virginia game in January.

And as for my previous point, again I'm not saying that the "context" of a foul (or non-foul) should be a relevant consideration when giving out punishment. In theory, every official should call everything by the letter of the law and the spirit of the game and the "make up call" shouldn't exist. But there's something in the psychology of the official that will from time to time prompt a make up call. Most of the time this is in response to an objectively incorrect decision--I'll admit I've blown calls in a game then later called something borderline a foul as a "make-up".

Part of that psychology also, as SFO rightly points out, is the emphasis that FIFA places on certain aspects of officiating prior to a tournament. In 1998, the "tackle from behind" was a point of emphasis, and you saw a good number of straight red cards. This year, the emphasis has been on the number of cards given--referees are expected to control the game and give out their fair share of cards rather than let things get out of hand. Also grabbing of the jersey is being emphasized IIRC (this in the string of things FIFA is doing/has done to promote more offense).

So you've got an official working under a FIFA-mandated emphasis on making sure cards are given at an appropriate rate, a 11 v. 10 situation where a red card has already been given for violent conduct, a very chippy first half of play, and then Larrionda is standing literally less than a yard away from Pablo Mastroeni as he comes sliding in on a tackle that looks pretty darn bad.

I've seen the replay on YouTube (thanks) and my own tape many times. I think Mastro starts his slide before the touch, but he comes in reckless and misses (well duh) and gives his man a pretty good whack. You have to give a card there, no question. I don't think it should have been red, clearly nobody on the US team did (the lack of formal appeal is not compelling evidence that the US knew it was a red card...formally appealing that play would be completely worthless, like sending a formal appeal to the NFL over a pass interference call...it's a judgement call by the official, it WAS a foul, only the color of the card is realistically in dispute. Something like the Ghana yellow card, which FIFA isn't overturning either, is more worth it because you could argue that the referee objectively misinterpreted the rule about time wasting.)

What I'm saying, in essence, is that given all these elements, you simply cannot afford to put yourself in any kind of borderline situation like Pablo did. You're leaving yourself out there at the mercy of an official who was right next to you and isn't exactly setting the kind of precedent that favors your reckless behavior.

BTW, check out Larrionda's body language the whole way through the call. That says a great deal.

[AustinHoya03]

Another consideration here is the quality of the source. I can't speak for the English or Argentinan papers, but El Pais is not a daily known for great sports writing. I'd compare it to the NYT sports section in the US. I would not be totally surprised to learn the writer compiled his story based on wire reports and never watched a replay of the tackle.

I voted it should not have been a red card based on how the refs have called that kind of tackle in this World Cup. Yes, it was sloppy play, but if we're going to make the call against Mastroeni the international standard, get ready for some 9 on 8 games in the next set of Champions League matches.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

austinhoya03 said:

Champions League matches.

Key words in your last paragraph. CL and UC (and i'm sure Intertoto too - but who really cares about that?) are called differently than WC matches. It may have to do with the pool that the referees are drawn from but there seems to be a certain standard in Europe and a different one in other areas - as a result what US fans who've watched European friendlies and CONCACAF qualifying might have expected was definitely not the way the game was refereed when a South American crew was on the pitch.

[FLHoya]

stpetersburghoya said:

austinhoya03 said:

Champions League matches.

Key words in your last paragraph. CL and UC (and i'm sure Intertoto too - but who really cares about that?) are called differently than WC matches. It may have to do with the pool that the referees are drawn from but there seems to be a certain standard in Europe and a different one in other areas - as a result what US fans who've watched European friendlies and CONCACAF qualifying might have expected was definitely not the way the game was refereed when a South American crew was on the pitch.

This is the pool that the referees are drawn from for the World Cup:

fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/ref/index.html

I know that into the knockout round, the referees begin to be selected based on merit during the tournament/general reputation for badassnessocity--thus it was a big deal when the American referee Brian Hall was selected for the pool of officials eligible to work the seminfinals onward in 2002 (he ended up being the fourth official in the Brazil-Turkey game). Unsurprisingly as well, Collina (the bald Italian guy) refereed the final, and the semis were done by two other very accomplished officials--Urs Meier and Kim Milton Neilsen (most famous/infamous for giving David Beckham the red card in 1998 against Argentina).

They divide the referees who get to come to Germany up somehow based on each federation--though I'm not sure if it's up to the individual federation or FIFA itself to choose which referees--I'm sure local assessments count a lot.

UEFA probably does it the same way, so that merit (and not refereeing if a team from your home country is playing) plays a big role. I know nobody from the Champions League Final crew is in Germany.

The one thing I do notice about the list is that there's quite a bit of turnover--lots of officials have "retired" in recent years (Collina being the most notable). There just isn't quite as much "star power" in the referee ranks, at least among the European ones, although I recognize several of the names.

(And frankly, BTW, I'm extremely glad the USA doesn't have to have CONCACAF refs in the WC.)

[AustinHoya03]

stpetersburghoya said:

Key words in your last paragraph. CL and UC (and i'm sure Intertoto too - but who really cares about that?) are called differently than WC matches. It may have to do with the pool that the referees are drawn from but there seems to be a certain standard in Europe and a different one in other areas - as a result what US fans who've watched European friendlies and CONCACAF qualifying might have expected was definitely not the way the game was refereed when a South American crew was on the pitch.

Why should this be? UEFA and CONCACAF are arms of FIFA, right? I guess it's to preserve differing regional styles of play, but isn't the world governing body supposed to do more than put on a tournament every four years? And if UEFA rules are tougher why is the Euro press convinced Mastro's tackle merited a red card?

Really, I think my impression of what the rules/calls should be comes mostly from playing JV soccer during my freshman year in high school. I have never looked for nuances in officiating when watching matches in different leagues/regions, as this would ruin my enjoyment of the game.

[SFOHoya]

Mastroeni gets an additional 3 game suspension (and a 7,500 Swiss Franc fine) for the tackle. De Rossi gets 4 games + fine. Mastroeni's seems excessive and not-proportionate to me.

www.tsn.ca/tsn/news_story.asp?id=169474

Though FIFA might have taken into account the DeRossi's next 4 games are in this world cup, while Mastro's will be against St Vincent and the Grenadines in Concacaf qualifying

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

sfohoya said:

Though FIFA might have taken into account the DeRossi's next 4 games are in this world cup, while Mastro's will be against St Vincent and the Grenadines in Concacaf qualifying

Several problems with your post.

1) You quoted a Canadian network.

2) The fulle name of the island nation is "Internaitonal Soccer Power-house St Vincent and the Grenadines"

[SFOHoya]

stpetersburghoya said:

Several problems with your post.

1) You quoted a Canadian network.

You fail to understand that the World Cup, Mastro's red card (make note of its colour), and the US' dismal performance is just another step in the conspiracy.

Once Frank Yallop is named US NMT's head coach, all the pieces will be in place. The silent invasion will be complete.

Peter Jennings will be named prime minister of Southern Canada, maple syrup replaces corn syrup, and everyone will be forced to learn French Quebecois, and use the metric system. MUAHAHA.

_{yes, it is a slow Friday}

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

You forgot to mention that the national anthem will be changed to a duet of Celine Dion and Ryan Adams singing Oh Canada.