GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jun 5, 2006 11:54:27 GMT -5
RDF, I might take Dee Brown over Lowry.
But who else?
Nick Fazekas? Paul "Snuggles" Davis? The mighty 17lbs that is Quincy Douby? James "yes, I can dunk" White?
This draft board is a nightmare because of the rule change. And once you get past the lottery, it's thin on talent and high on gamble. Lowry is worth a gamble in my opinion because his shot isn't THAT bad and can defninitely be developed. I'm not in love with his game but I do think he's worth a look when you consider the other options.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 5, 2006 12:50:14 GMT -5
I think James White is going to be a very good pro. He can shoot much better than you think, is a very good defender, has nice size and strength and a very good handle.
The guy is everything Brandon was supposed to be.
I also think Douby will be a nice NBA role player.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 5, 2006 13:43:54 GMT -5
I think James White is going to be a very good pro. He can shoot much better than you think, is a very good defender, has nice size and strength and a very good handle. The guy is everything Brandon was supposed to be. I also think Douby will be a nice NBA role player. Ummm....White was a top 15 player coming out of high school. A McDAA whom some thought would try to jump straight from high school to the pros. He has been in college for about six seasons and FINALLY lived somewhat up to his press clippings. Bowman was ranked around 90 coming out of high school and is probably at least two years younger than White. White had the high expectations coming out of high school, not Bowman.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 5, 2006 14:18:34 GMT -5
I think James White is going to be a very good pro. He can shoot much better than you think, is a very good defender, has nice size and strength and a very good handle. The guy is everything Brandon was supposed to be. I also think Douby will be a nice NBA role player. Ummm....White was a top 15 player coming out of high school. A McDAA whom some thought would try to jump straight from high school to the pros. He has been in college for about six seasons and FINALLY lived somewhat up to his press clippings. Bowman was ranked around 90 coming out of high school and is probably at least two years younger than White. White had the high expectations coming out of high school, not Bowman. You're right -- my comment didn't come out right. White is everything Brandon could be is what I meant to say. Either way, I'd definitely have a spot for White on my NBA bench.
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on Jun 5, 2006 16:54:05 GMT -5
James White will be alot like Gerald Wallace was his first couple of seasons with the Kings. Defensive, energy guy, who gets out in transition. He has become more of a scorer since moving to Charlotte. Similar height and abilities as White.
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Post by SoCal Hoya85 on Jun 5, 2006 17:13:48 GMT -5
I used to think that you had to be able to shoot to play in the NBA unless you were a powerforward or a center and then I watched Tony Parker play. Now that man is incredibly quick and there are more Vaughns then Parkers that have gone through the NBA but it is not impossible to be a guard in the NBA and not have a jump shot, just very hard.
Can Lowry do it? He will need the floater and the midrange shot but if he makes that a reliable part of his game then I think its possible. He won't be great but he will be able to hold his own.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 5, 2006 19:54:53 GMT -5
No offense intended but you must not watch the Spurs or the NBA much if you think Parker is anywhere near as bad a shooter as Lowry. Parker was putting up great numbers this season and he wasn't simply doing it by driving to the basket and he never has. He has had a pullup jumper and a standstil jumper since he entered the league. He is from Europe after all where they are known to practice such things.
Look I hope Lowry does well as all of his fans on this board feel he will. But lets stop making bad comparisons. Lowry is not in the league of any of the names that have been brought up.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jun 5, 2006 20:11:04 GMT -5
No offense but you must have not watched Parker when he came into the league...or even a guy like Jason Kidd for that matter. You want to talk about some ugly jumpshots, check the tape on the rookie years for those two.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 6, 2006 0:06:13 GMT -5
I have watched Parker from the very beginning of his career and will continue to refute any claims about his not having an effective looking jumpshot when he entered the league. Especialy claims that his shot looked ugly. Parker always had the ability to get to the basket and score and at one time you would have considered that to be his greatest strength on offense. But his jumper was always there. Its improved of course, its been refined, its gotten more consistent. But its been in his arsenal very early on. Its his confidence in it that has gotten stronger. He had the mechanics going into the league and it looked good when the ball left his hands. Can't say the same with Lowry.
As for Kidd, well, no one would argue that his shot to this day is by far the weakest part of his game. Sometimes he can hit a very good clip from the outside. Most times though its painful to watch. But Kidd gets away with that ugly shot because of his superior size and strength for a point guard, his unmatched vision of the court, his understanding of the game, his terrific defense and his ability to make teammates better. Kidd is special. He was special in high school. And in his two seasons at Cal he showed himself to be special in college. And of course he has been a Hall of Fame player in the NBA. You guys keep bringing up some big names to compare Lowry to and that may not be fair to him. I saw Lowry play more in college than I saw of Kidd and Lowry doesn't belong in the same sentence. Period. He is not as tall. Lowry may not even be six feet tall. His passing isn't anywhere near Kidd's level. His vision doesn't come close to Kidd's. His ability to defend is not as good because of his size. His ability to elevate his teammate's games is still a question mark but I can say its not nearly as apparent as it was with Kidd. As tough as Lowry is most of his rebounds still seem to be geting to loose balls. Kidd can actually rebound in traffic and in fact has been the best rebounding point guard that I can remember other than Magic. Now Lowry does have the quickness advantage over Kidd but that being said Kidd seemed better in college at running a fast break anyhow.
There's a reaso why Lowry isn't looking like a lottery selection. Yes, NBA scouts often get things wrong but whe it comes to well known players on high profile teams they tend to get it right. Guys like Kidd, Iverson, TJ Ford, Chris Paul, etc all had flaws and all of them only played two seaons in college. And yet NBA scouts never doubted that they were high draft picks. There is doubt with Lowry because he has so many more holes than those guys. Can he overcome it and become a great player anyhow? Yes, its possible. But I wouldn't bet money on his becoming one of the elite NBA point guards anytime soon. Nor would I ever put him in the class with the four guys I just mentioned. If anyone caught the NBA Western Conference Finals they would have noticed that the Suns figured Devon Harris out. Harris, who had a better jumpshot in college than Lowry, hasn't proven he could knock down shots consistently at the pro level. So the Suns defended him by giving him space in order to take away his driving ability and make him more reliant on hitting outside shots. As a result Harris was essentially a non-factor. I could see Lowry being defended the same way until he gets that jumper.
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Madgesdiq
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Post by Madgesdiq on Jun 6, 2006 9:53:22 GMT -5
As I said previously in the Lowry to turn pro thread: « Reply #4 on 4/27/06 at 19:34 »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is the market like for a 6 foot combo guard who can't shoot from outside 6 feet? He's a good on ball defender who would have been much better served coming back next year and working on skills to make the jump to the NBA. An NBDL lifer.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jun 6, 2006 11:52:14 GMT -5
I have watched Parker from the very beginning of his career and will continue to refute any claims about his not having an effective looking jumpshot when he entered the league. Especialy claims that his shot looked ugly. Parker always had the ability to get to the basket and score and at one time you would have considered that to be his greatest strength on offense. But his jumper was always there. Its improved of course, its been refined, its gotten more consistent. But its been in his arsenal very early on. Its his confidence in it that has gotten stronger. He had the mechanics going into the league and it looked good when the ball left his hands. Can't say the same with Lowry. As for Kidd, well, no one would argue that his shot to this day is by far the weakest part of his game. Sometimes he can hit a very good clip from the outside. Most times though its painful to watch. But Kidd gets away with that ugly shot because of his superior size and strength for a point guard, his unmatched vision of the court, his understanding of the game, his terrific defense and his ability to make teammates better. Kidd is special. He was special in high school. And in his two seasons at Cal he showed himself to be special in college. And of course he has been a Hall of Fame player in the NBA. You guys keep bringing up some big names to compare Lowry to and that may not be fair to him. I saw Lowry play more in college than I saw of Kidd and Lowry doesn't belong in the same sentence. Period. He is not as tall. Lowry may not even be six feet tall. His passing isn't anywhere near Kidd's level. His vision doesn't come close to Kidd's. His ability to defend is not as good because of his size. His ability to elevate his teammate's games is still a question mark but I can say its not nearly as apparent as it was with Kidd. As tough as Lowry is most of his rebounds still seem to be geting to loose balls. Kidd can actually rebound in traffic and in fact has been the best rebounding point guard that I can remember other than Magic. Now Lowry does have the quickness advantage over Kidd but that being said Kidd seemed better in college at running a fast break anyhow. There's a reaso why Lowry isn't looking like a lottery selection. Yes, NBA scouts often get things wrong but whe it comes to well known players on high profile teams they tend to get it right. Guys like Kidd, Iverson, TJ Ford, Chris Paul, etc all had flaws and all of them only played two seaons in college. And yet NBA scouts never doubted that they were high draft picks. There is doubt with Lowry because he has so many more holes than those guys. Can he overcome it and become a great player anyhow? Yes, its possible. But I wouldn't bet money on his becoming one of the elite NBA point guards anytime soon. Nor would I ever put him in the class with the four guys I just mentioned. If anyone caught the NBA Western Conference Finals they would have noticed that the Suns figured Devon Harris out. Harris, who had a better jumpshot in college than Lowry, hasn't proven he could knock down shots consistently at the pro level. So the Suns defended him by giving him space in order to take away his driving ability and make him more reliant on hitting outside shots. As a result Harris was essentially a non-factor. I could see Lowry being defended the same way until he gets that jumper. Again, all well and good but who is calling him elite? I'm just saying it's not unheard of that point guards come into the league with poor jumpers and above-average athleticism. That goes for truly elite players (Kidd) to role players (Fisher). I think Lowry is closer to Fisher than Kidd for sure. I mean is it unfair to compare him to a guy like Fisher? Or to say he's worth a first round pick in the weakest of all drafts? Let's put this in perspective here. Lowry is not a lottery pick nor should he be. But to act like the kid is such a disaster that he can't be mentioned with Jameer Nelson or Derek Fisher is pretty ridiculous. Even the "He's Jacques Vaughn" comparison is a weak knock on the kid. Vaughn was picked late and has stayed in the league 10 years. If that's Lowry's fate, there are certainly worse. He should leave now and get the guaranteed money and avoid becoming Chris Thomas.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 6, 2006 12:54:03 GMT -5
He could end up being better than Nelson and Fisher if he stayed four years like they did. Now though, since he's leaving early, he'll have to learn how to shoot in the NBA. Until he does that I'm not putting him in Nelson's class.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jun 6, 2006 14:21:40 GMT -5
Kyle "let me throw my body into the defender" Lowry can not carry Jameer Nelson's jock. He has displayed none of the playmaking ability that Jameer was flashing as early as his freshman year on Hawk Hill. Nelson was running that team from day one and routinely made the players around him better. Lowry has not shown any inclionation to make anyone around him better.
I will give him his due on hustle, hardnosed play and defense, as well as the ability to get to the rim, in college. However, at his size, he'll need to start loking to help his teammates. That is something he has shown no interest in, at all.
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paranoia2
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Post by paranoia2 on Jun 6, 2006 14:45:34 GMT -5
IMO Lowery shares more concern for pimping, sweet rides and long green than he does for coming back and trying to make Mike Nardi and Curt Sumpter better college players. Good luck in the NBA Kyle...
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Post by theEDGEfactor on Jun 6, 2006 14:59:53 GMT -5
idk alot of people doubted jameer coming out along with nate robinson..they both made it just gotta give him the chance
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jun 6, 2006 15:29:23 GMT -5
True enough. But both Nate and Jameer had stayed in school long enough to refine their games enough to overcome any obvious deficiencies in size or speed.
Lowry right now is almost completely one-dimensional and has showen no inclination to be any kind of a playmaker. If he can't get to the rim, he fails in the NBA.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jun 6, 2006 16:16:43 GMT -5
I'm trying to figure out this obsession with making Lowry seem sooooooooo bad. He's a great rebounder for his size. He knocked down his threes when he got them (albeit a rare occurrence when he shot them). He gets to the rim, led his team in assists (not bad for a complete non-playmaker), and led the entire Big East in steals. That's not a bad resume if you ask me.
Could he use another year? Sure, but it's a weak draft year and he wants to take the cash. I can't say I blame him considering how easy it is for guards to fall off the radar especially in a season where his team will be much weaker.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jun 6, 2006 16:52:00 GMT -5
I'm trying to figure out this obsession with making Lowry seem sooooooooo bad. He's a great rebounder for his size. He knocked down his threes when he got them (albeit a rare occurrence when he shot them). He gets to the rim, led his team in assists (not bad for a complete non-playmaker), and led the entire Big East in steals. That's not a bad resume if you ask me. Could he use another year? Sure, but it's a weak draft year and he wants to take the cash. I can't say I blame him considering how easy it is for guards to fall off the radar especially in a season where his team will be much weaker. How many guys 6'0 and under are drafted for their rebounding? This is the NBA--not the 6'0 and under league. If that dwarf tries to go down low--he'll get his butt handed to him-and then we'll see what he's made of--which I have my doubts on because he's a kid who was used to getting calls and when he drove and got punished against Florida--he quit driving and was done--the rest of his offensive skills are marginal or below for an NBA player. This talk of Derek Fisher is interesting because I believe Fisher was one of the top scorers in the NCAA the year he was in the Draft--not to mention Conference Player of the Year and had proven himself at every NBA Pre Draft Camp. So it's not like he didn't invest time in his game and elevate his stock. Same with Nelson--who as a FR had a great year and developed into a better player by staying all 4 years at St. Joe's. That is all those of us who are ripping on Lowry are saying--why leave when you are nowhere near ready to play NBA level basketball? Why not stay and develop your skills and show that you can play? 6'0 and under guards who can't shoot and are known for rebounding are called Health Club All Stars. You can't get to the rim if you can't shoot in the NBA and when you do and jump into people--you get called for offensive fouls. The best little men in the game take their beating and keep coming--Lowry quit against Noah, Horford, and company--those kids are NBA prospects but not nearly as talented as the people he's about to face in Camps/Preseason. Being scrappy is a great quality--and I commend that in any player--but you need more than that to play at Lowry's size in the NBA. Also--steals are the most overrated stat in measuring a defensive player you can get. AI is near top in steals and he's a marginal defensive player at best--and it was a joke when he won Defensive Player of the Year in the Big East because he didn't change outcomes of games with his defense. Neither did Lowry. People like Gene Smith, Ricky Moore of UConn, Alonzo, Patrick, Okafor, they changed how you attacked on offense and could lock people up--I saw Jessie Sapp going to the rim at will against Lowry at least 3 times and Marcus Williams also torched him, along with Krauser in BET too. If you can't guard your peers man up, what are you going to do against bigger guards? Jason Kidd is a Hall of Fame Point Guard--because he's 6'4, fast, physical, and gets easy shots for his teammates. Lowry is known for being a physical, rebounder at 6'0 and getting to the rim/foul line due to throwing his body into people at the Big East level. He flopped/flailed around. Do that in the NBA when you have no game and see how far you get. He's going to have to really work his tail off and so far all I've heard is that his stock is dropping like a rock due to fact he can't shoot the basketball and isn't a great ball handler either. Ray and Foye had best handles on that team--especially when isolated--Lowry is a kid who could've been everything some think he is now--if he stayed at Nova his entire career--good luck trying to learn on the run and hope for him that whomever picks him has established guards and time for him to find some game.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jun 6, 2006 17:40:48 GMT -5
Why leave?
The top ten in this draft includes such surefire all-stars as Shelden Williams, Tyrus Thomas, Rudy Gay, and Adam Morrison. Hooray for this draft. Next year's draft is so good, I'm not sure Roy or Jeff will even go.
I find it odd that everyone is saying "Lowry is bad, therefore he shouldn't leave in a weak draft year." It's EXACTLY when he should leave. If he gets guaranteed first-round cash, who cares if he blows in the NBA? Seriously, he can get drafted #29 and make 2.5 million over three years on a technicality or he can come back with a weakened 'Nova team, work hard, be first-team All-Big East at best and then...sweat it out in the first round that will include Oden, Hansborough, all of Kansas and Florida, and most of Alabama.
He is never going to be a lottery pick, ever. He's just not that good especially with the drafts over the next two years. I agree with that part of the assessment. But let the kid get his money now. Best case scenario in the next few years is he works his way into the top 20 comfortably. But why would he ever take the chance?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 6, 2006 20:21:33 GMT -5
The point is he is danger of not getting drafted in the first round this year. If that happens then he will have to live with the fact that he could have improved his chances, even in a stronger draft, two years from now. It isn't impossible for him to become a first rounder in 2008 even with better players on the draft board. And heck even if he didn't get drafted in the first round in 2008 he will still at least have his degree and he would be much more ready for the NBA (which means a longer career and the opportunity to make more dough ultimately.
Instead he's leaving in 2006 when he is not leaving with a degree and is not as ready as he should be for the pro game. If he falls to the second round he will be 0 for 3 and in a world of hurt.
By the way RDF's post on the matter actually said it all. Lowry is taking a stupid gamble.
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