Eastern Conference Finals Thread (NBA)

[RDF]

First off, I am not a fan of either team but I'm pulling for Zo to get a ring--so GO HEAT! With that said, here's a few things I noticed tonight and will be key in this Series:

1. Alonzo Mourning and Gary Payton won this game for Miami tonight. Mourning dominated the game when he was in and if Riley is smart--he'll use Mourning more in the 2nd Half--ESPECIALLY the 4th QUARTER--to win this series. That moron Saunders "rests" Ben Wallace when Shaq is out and Mourning scared anyone who drove the lane tonight. He was fantastic and reason they won this game--well other then Payton who played a wonderful game. As a Payton basher, this is best basketball I've seen him play in the last 5-6 years. He is taking to his role and providing some big hoops for the Heat. Kudos to him for his play tonight.

2. Why does everyone gush over Ben Wallace when fact is he's an average on ball defender and he doesn't do a thing that Zo didn't do in his prime--Alonzo Mourning is one of the finest defensive Centers to EVER play the sport. He still is dominant with his illness and is and has been every bit the defensive player, not to mention a more dominant player overall then Ben Wallace. Ben is a hard working guy and great part of Pistons but to me, he and Pistons are overrated as a defensive team.

3. Flip Saunders is a terrible coach in the Playoffs--I know simple to say but taking a timeout in early stages of 1st Quarter of a Playoff game is ignorant. It's the NBA--not College ball and you know with a 7 game series and Pistons coming off a 7 game series, they might start out a little slow compared to a well rested Heat team. It shows panic and if you listened-caused some murmurs/confusion with entire arena. Just a bozo. He had a great opportunity to win the game--but goes with "matching" Ben Wallace with Shaq in terms of when they are in game together or sitting, and he's not running Hamilton off the ball enough--as Hubie Brown pointed out--used the curl play 2 times and Hamilton nailed both shots.

4. Detroit's defense isn't nearly what it has been under Carlisle and of course Larry Brown. Saunders lets these guys think they are offensively talented--they aren't. They are at their best when the focus is on defense and working a possession with halfcourt stuff--taking quick shots is going to kill them in this series. Pistons remind me of the Colts this past year in NFL--they are living off their past years but overall their team's strength wasn't as strong as it appeared--but due to a better record people think it's same old Detroit.

5. Shaq is good for about 15 minutes in a game now. He's one of the worst defensive Centers I've seen play and it's gotten worse. If I'm the Heat, I go to him early, get him out of the game when Pistons are making a run and in the 4th--you need stops and Mourning is more valuable as a "closer". Mourning was also more dominant in his time on the floor and made more of an impact. If Riley sticks to "rotating" and using his Centers like a Pitching Staff--in a sense--then he'll win this series because Wade can't be stopped and is the best player on the floor. Shaq looked awful in 2nd Half--missing layups and tips from 1 ft and not hustling at all. Use him early--let him bang/foul and wear down Detroit and then use Zo to finish them off. Still say Heat would've won last year if they had Zo in late with lead instead of Shaq--or at least use them together at end of game if you insist having Shaq in the game.

6. Why is Lindsey Hunter getting the calls against the likes of Wade and LeBron James?? Disgusting. If I want to tune into a game and watch untalented people flop, I will watch a Duke game.

7. For all of the talk of how Miami HAD to win this game with the rest, etc.... why didn't Detroit? They had a game where Wade sat with 4 fouls and he was dominating. Wouldn't that be a great time to steal a game you shouldn't have won? Pistons going to the well too often? We'll see. I think they are the best team, and rule in Pro Sports is the best team will win--but I keep seeing one matchup heavily in Heat's favor and it played out tonight--Pat Riley vs Flip Saunders.--if I'm a Pistons fans, YIKES!!

Tomorrow's game will be fun and seeing Nash go against his old team will be interesting--and very telling to the greatness that is being said of Nash--if he can win and lead his team to the Finals without Stoudemire, his legend grows. If he gets beat by the team he left--then what's that say? How many 2 time MVP's get traded and the team improves? That is going to be at stake and while many will discount this, I think you can't say Dallas isn't a better team now then when they had both Nash and Finley. Now to their defense--I also think they are better COACHED because Don Nelson is a bum as a coach--so that is a huge factor too. But it's going to be a lot of fun watching Nash/Dirk battle it out and seeing who steps up to support them and get to the Finals.

[the_way]

I think Miami should win this series decisively. They are clearly the better team AND have the better coach. (which isn't saying much ;D ). But Miami will win this season because like you said having veteran backups like Mourning and Payton, a good role player like Haslem and go-to-scorer on call in Walker. BUT, the main reason why Miami will win this series is simple: Dwayne Wade. The guy is unreal. They talk about LeBron James a lot, but Dwayne Wade is seriously the real deal.

[miamihoya]

Agree with just about all the points above....Payton and Zo really stepped it up last nite and played like the true veterans that they are. Not to be overlooked, though, J.Williams and Posey contributed also. All in all a solid team effort (with the exception of Haslem).

As for Shaq vs. Zo, i totally agree that Riles needs to play Zo often, because he showed last nite that he could dominate the game when he was in. It is tempting to say that the Heat played better with Shaq on the bench. Still, it is important to note that Shaq's early contributions were crucial when he went 6 for 7, and along with Wade put the team up by 10 or so. That set the tempo, and allowed Riley to sit Shaq and put in Zo.

Overall a very pleasing performance by the team and hopefully they can keep it rolling.

[RockawayHoya]

I also agree with everything that's already been said. It was shocking to see GP play at the level we saw him play at last night. It's been years since he looked that good in an important game, and if he can keep it up, I just can't see this Detroit team (that was lucky to squeak by Lebron and... well just Lebron) keeping up with them.

[hoyarooter]

I didn't see the game, so I appreciate the insight provided on this thread. Heat fans shouldn't count on the Sieve providing a series worth of strong performances. On the other hand, Shaq has a luxury now that he never had with the Lakers - a bona fide player available to back him up. Riles should tell Shaq he is going to play 30 minutes a game, and that Riles expects him to bust his hump every second of that time. If that happens, The Big Bum to Be may get another ring yet.

[Deleted]

Totally unrelated: between 1:00 and 2:00 this afternoon, the Cavs' Anderson Varejao was sitting outside at the Cosi at the corner of Connecticut Ave. & R Street drinking Amstel Lights.

That is all.

[kchoya]

Who is this Anderson Varejao of which you speak? I watched some Cavs playoffs games and Dick Stockton pointed out an Anderson Very-gee-how, but not an Anderson Varejao. And are you sure it wasn't Sideshow Bob?

[aussiehoya]

this thread is already a classic.

ok so several points.

1. I really REALLY enjoy hoyatalk nba threads. For the most part, people know what they're talking about and make articulate and occaisonally funny posts.

2. Agree with Rooter that Riley should DEMAND that shaq busts his hump while he's on the floor. The daddy could stand to be a little more active on the offensive boards. I disagree with RDF that he's one of the worst defensive centers in the game - i mean his quickness off his feet has clearly dimished, but to say he's one of the worst? that's a lil much my man.

3a. How can you not LOVE dick stockton. He's calling nba games and I witnessed him pronounce Varajeo's name 2 different ways in one quarter of play. You have to love that.

3b. What the hell was anderson doing in DC? Can anyone answer this? Should he be gun-running in little Cessna or be on some beach in brazil? An anderson sighting in DC just doesn't make sense to me.

3c. Talking about sports star sightings, I was once with my family in Cafe Milano (you know near G'town) a few years ago and I spotted Michael Jordan sitting at the bar. I then pointed this fact out to my mum and dad, at which point my mum got furious and animated, declaring that "That is NOT Michael Jordan!". This is coming from a 50-year-old AUSTRALIAN woman who has watched a total of 3-4 minutes of pro basketball in her ENTIRE life. I was dumbfounded.

4. Agreed about Wallace's post defense - I think it's largely a factor of his center of gravity - he hasn't got much junk in the trunk and the bigger centers like the daddy can push him around.

5. Love the lindsey hunter comment. For some reason this year i've started finding him really annoying. Can someone punch this guy in the face please?

6. I never would've thought I see "Gary Payton" and "wonderful game" in the same sentence. Agreed - he had a great game one, but came crashing down to earth last night. I think this guy just needs to retire after this year. His footspeed is just not there, his jumpshot never was, and he just has the look of a horrible locker-room guy. "Gary Payton" and "has-been" look much more comfortable together in a setence, so let's leave it at that.

7. 'Zo was before my time as a hoya (and I didn't watch college hoops until coming to the states in 2000), so I never grew attached to him as a college player. That said **disclaimer** I dislike 'Zo. He is auditioning for the actors studio on every play - did you see his delayed reaction when he got "hit" in the eye last night? And the flexing after baskets and the appealing to the officials - it's all just over the top.. At this point in his career, he really needs to chill with the histrionics and play his game. That said - he definitely has been and should continue to be an impact player in this series.

[miamihoya]

Great post aussie, but couldnt disagree more with your last post. I was a heat fan long before I became a hoya fan, and thus 'Zo has always been one of my favorite, if not the favorite, basketball players (fact that he is a hoya only strenghtens that). I can see how to some his behavior may seem obnoxious or unnecessary, but its part of his game. He enjoys intimidating his opponents and putting on a show. Considering what this guy has been through with his kidney transplant, its just a pleasure to see him on the court and contributing to the heat playoff run. As much as i love wade and shaq, if for nothing else, I wanna see 'zo finally get his championship.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

I like Miami in 11.

[hifigator]

The best point several have made concerns Saunders. Let's face it. The team he inherited was pretty much stacked. It's basically the same team from the past several years. Now I know that the NBA is all about managing egos and from that standpoint he is to be commended simply in that he didn't screw the team up much. But as a game coach he is outclassed by Riley big time. I think you are a little too critical of Ben Wallace however. He is a damn good player. It is just hard to accpet that since we are so used to premier centers scoring 20 plus. As for Mourning, I couldn't agree more. He is a great asset coming off the bench and from everything I have heard he is a class act. I think that most everyone is pulling for him ... well except for Syracuse fans. As for Payton, he has had some minutes but I think he is a mere shell of his younger self. He is not the glove anymore and when you combine Payton with Jason Williams and Antoine Walker you have 3 guys who couldn't cover you or me with a gun and a badge.

[RDF]

At this point, I think it has to be said, this is one of the worst coaching jobs in the History of NBA Playoff Basketball being orchaestrated by Flip Saunders. As anyone who has witnessed the Flipster in action over a course of time, his insistence on obsessing over the regular season and then never making any adjustments to what he does in the Postseason is killing him. The Piston players are turning on him--with Ben and Rasheed Wallace questioning his coaching strategy and what he emphasizes and I think one thing sticks out more then anything watching Detroit play in this Postseason--they let little things bother them that they would ignore/play through in the past. Their defense is sloppy/lazy and they are whining/moaning to refs looking to get bailed out.

Saunders needs to step aside and let players run the team on their own--that is how crappy of a coach he is. Just let the players run the team and I guarantee it can't be much worse then what we've seen so far. In all honesty IF he loses this series, there is going to be much debate on his coaching ability but the huge part in this debacle is how he let team lose focus and get forced to 7 games against a 1 man team in Cleveland. That could cost him this series and the way Detroit is playing, it should. If you look at the first 4 games, they are lucky to have one win--and that was in a game Miami was giving them, and yet in typical Flip fashion--see Game 7 against Kings in '04 Playoffs--his team needs to hold on with a huge lead and less then a minute. That's ridiculous and reflects on a coach. Happens one time, it's on the players. Occurs over and over, and you have to wonder about the Coach/his Staff.

Funniest thing is that NC State fans point to Lowe's "experience" with Pistons as a key to attract players and what a "Great defensive coach" Lowe is because that is supposedly what he's in charge of-I've yet to see the Piston like defense we saw from this team under not only Brown but also Carlisle. Lowe was a joke in his stints as a Head Coach and see no reason for this to not continue at NC State.

As for the Heat, Riley is making this look like a clinic in coaching and his understanding of Playoff Basketball is coming up huge. He knows that you want to be in "contact" heading into the 4th and he's put the proper lineups in each game to give his team a shot to win. I didn't see this in the Heat, but then again, I've not seen O'Neal give this type of consistent effort since last year either.

BTW--will the Draft of James and Wade go down as one of, if not THE best ever?? Sick talent in that class and I'm not so sure we're not seeing 2 of the best to ever lace them up. Wade is amazing and just a joy to watch play the sport. That finish at the rim tonight was up there with anything I've seen and it'll be comical to listen to the Jordan worshippers put that down as we all know--nobody can "Top MJ"--which is pure manure because I think LeBron James is a better all around basketball player at the same age and I believe Wade is too. Not to take away from Jordan, but his legend grows as he is further away from the sport. Some of these younger guys are doing things he didn't do at the same stage/age of his career and it's due to their understanding of how to play--which took Jordan a while. Jordan was more like AI--but with more talented guys around him--took his game to the next level.

I will predict one thing for Game 5 in Detroit though--Dick Bavetta will be there to make sure Shaq has some fouls and in all honesty, it should help the Heat play a loose game and just try to relax and fire and steal victory. I think it's a situation where you don't have to win--but you want to push Detroit and keep them thinking you are in total control of the Series--as they have to believe--being that in their lone win, they barely held on.

[miamihoya]

Just got back from the game, and let me tell you something: Dwayne Wade has to be the most exciting player in the NBA right now. That crazy backwards-hook-and-one shot was just the most incredible play i have seen. Not only did it bring the Pistons run to a sudden halt, but it brought down the house. I have to admit I was one of the doubters who questioned Riley's offseason moves and his taking over the coaching spot, but the Heat is one win away from making him into a genius (as if he wasnt one already). This is the best team in the playoffs right now, and no doubt they will finish off the Pistons. That team has just fallen apart and Flip Saunders might as well stay in the locker room at this point. Bring on the western conference champs.

[hoyarooter]

I can't say whether the James/Wade/Anthony/Bosh draft will end up being the best ever, but I can't imagine it not being on any short list. If the Piston reign ends with a single title, their drafting of Darko is going to go down as perhaps the greatest draft boner of all time. That was a Joe Dumars decision, wasn't it? Guess he can't get everything right.

[jerseyhoya34]

I was a Knicks fan before I was a Hoya, so I definitely hated Zo. I remember him stomping on Van Gundy and everything else with the Mourning/Hardaway/PJ Brown group. That said, my Knicks are so terrible that I am not beyond cheering for the Heats and Bulls of the NBA. (And I don't hate Mourning anymore either. He's a tremendous asset to the NBA and the medical community through his charitable work.)

I'm pulling for the Heat for reasons stated. Mourning needs a ring so he can retire and get the full treatment that he needs for his condition. I've only seen a few minutes thus far due to a stronger interest in baseball, but Wade is electric. Not bad for someone who played for Creepy Tom Cretin.

[RDF]

This game was over the minute the Pistons went with the gimmick Red "alternate" jerseys and kept talking of the "pressure" being on the Heat. Really? The pressure is on the team that is up in the Series and clearly outplaying you? Disasterous.

Flip Saunders is a disgrace. Simple as that. The man has no clue what Playoff Basketball is about--his team played like absolute GARBAGE away from home and still feel this season ended when a one man team led by LeBron extended this series full seven games. That should've been a 4 game sweep if there ever was to be one. Awful coaching by the Rodney Dangerfield neck twitching geek.

As for the Heat-congrats to Miami Hoya who always believed in them--I know I didn't. Most of all congrats to Zo!! I am happy for him and hope he's able to get a ring--as Jersey said above, he's a great person and does a lot of things for community which is great to see (also saw Deke and JYD at an Awards Ceremony with David Stern--so good to see Hoyas representing for great causes)

Only negative of tonight's game was the "Wade out of the Lockerroom" shot we seem to get way too much of come Playoff time. But he is so good he gets a pass right now--but let's calm down the dramatics and just play basketball!! Love to watch the guy's talent but can't stand the theatrical entrances/re-entrances to the game. Leave that for Hollywood. Guy's getting an IV, fine--he's not the first/last athlete that has to do this. He's playing sick--great---so do many other athletes. It's called having an entire offseason to rest if you lose--so don't make this as if it's heroic or special. It's a job and his job is to play basketball and help his team win--not sit out with a tummy virus.

[hifigator]

I thought it was a total team effort last night. Obviously Shaq played great. Wade did what he needed to do in the third quarter. Payton, Haslem and Posey all filled in with quality minutes but who could have foreseen the night Jason Williams had. He is certainly no role model, but when he is under controll he can flat out score.

[miamihoya]

It was an amazing game. Got to celebrate my birthday with my 20,000 closest friends and watch the Heat send the Detroit Pistons packing...Took 18 years but finally the Miami Heat will get a chance to play in the NBA Finals...what a performance last nite by Shaq and J.Will...and Wade proving once again just how great he is, playing through a flu and contributing just enough to spark the team to victory. It was really an amazing thing to be in that arena, especially once the crowd realized late in the fourth quarter that is was over. I have to give it up to Pat Riley, because I doubted him all along and his offseason moves, but it payed off. He built this team for this purpose exactly: To beat the Detroit Pistons. Mission Accomplished. Bring on the Mavericks/Suns, because nothing is stopping this Heat team right now.

[MCIGuy]

So happy to see the Pistons gone.After loving them two years ago I quickly turned on them since. What an arrogant bunch of chumps. Somehow they began to believe the hype they were actually a greta team rather than a worthy opponent who played well as a team and as a result were able to knock off the Los Angeles Divas in 2004. After than every post season lost of theirs was not the result of the opposing team but rather the result of bad refs, not playing their best or bad coaching. These comments routinely came from jerk Rasheed Wallace and Chauncy Billups. Oh, did I mention that they are painful to watch most games? It was laughable how they would lose a game to the Cavs or the Heat by a score of something like 82 to 76 and then they would say in post game interviews that their defense wasn't good enough! Hello? The defense was fine, idiots. It was your anemic scoring that led to your downfall. Good riddance. No more of their clutching, grabbing, holding, boring, eye-soar basketball. Miami Heat may not be the Suns but at least when playing against teams other than the Pistons they will actually try to put up a lot of points and run the floor.

And before I forget....no more "Deeee-troit Baaas=ketballlll!" I had enough of that jerk and his chants to last a lifetime.

Goodbye, Rasheed. Seek theraphy and be a man and go inside for once.
Goodbye, Mr Big Shot, and your inability to penetrate like real point guards.
Goodbye, Rip Hamilton, you second rate Reggie Miller. Can you believe this is the lone Big East star to win both an NCAA and NBA championship?
Goodbye, Ben Wallace, and the media and fan hype that is bestowed upon you. Zo and Deke combined didn't get as much press for their defense as Mr Five Points a Game has.
Goodbye, Igor. You're turning into a pretty good player.