Kobe... Nash.... Dirk

[aussiehoya]

Ok a couple things..

I was disappointed that the lakers choked it up, not able to close out a 3-1 series lead, especially when you’ve got homeboy the Zen Master who had never lost an opening round series in his ENTIRE CAREER. I guess the whole LA vs. LA was too good to be true.

That leads us to Kobe, who at the 3-1 point in the series was taking Nash’s MVP trophy and punching him in the face with it. As much as I dislike Kobe, he really reached mythical proportions when he hit that shot to take it to OT and then the Jordan-esque jumper to end it in OT.

But finally, after Nash took shots from every sportswriter on espn.com, the Suns absolutely ROLLED on the lakers in phoenix in the game 7, with barbosa turning it into a track meet. And I think ultimately, despite what nash says, this series WAS a referendum on who deserved the MVP trophy. I think that my man Nash did in fact earn that award. I mean, look at the bums he’s playing with – when Leandro Barbosa and Boris Diaw can come to your team and become borderline allstars, you’re doing a bloody good job. And that’s what Nash does – he makes former bums have career years – hell, even the softest guy in the league (Tim Thomas) is starting to look like a real player.

So that’s what we’ve got, a guy who led his team to a great seeding, with a cast of bums, without his best player (Amare), into the second round of the western conference playoffs. That’s an MVP, b!tches. I don’t buy the Sports Guy’s argument that he just got voted for because he’s exciting, white and has floppy hair – I really think that he discounted the overall EFFECT of Nash on the team (which is really the measure of the MVP).

But with all of that said, I’ve watched Dirk a lot this postseason, and NOBODY does more for his team. The guy is an absolute porn star on the court – no one can match up with this guy. No one. I would’ve given it to the german.

More NBA rants to come, but wanted to start it off there…

[aggypryd]

Sorry...

This was Kobe's year. And this is coming from someone that hates Kobe about as much as I hate Coach K.

Nash got the MVP last year because he deserved it. He got it this year because of the color of his skin.

There's no way in the world that Kobe has the year that he had, and he finishes 4th in the race for MVP.

Nash, Lebron, Nowitzki...and then Kobe?

Come on, Man...

[the_way]

Nash is overrated. Especially about the part of him making his teammates better. How about giving their coach some credit as well. Last time I checked, the Mavs let Nash go for a reason, and they look to be in better shape than the Suns were last year and this year. The Lakers didn't choke. They were a subpar team that was able to squeeze out 3 victories early in the series. But Phoenix by far, had more talent. They dominated the Lakers in the regular season. It shouldn't have went to 7 games or even been close. That is a testament to Kobe's greatness and Phil Jackson.

Dirk is great. I always liked Dirk. Offensively, he is one of the best in the league. He has moves like a wing-guard at 7'0 tall. Unfortunately his defense is just as bad as his offense is good. But I look at the Mav's improvement in the playoffs based on the personnel movement towards younger, more defensive oriented,athletic players, and their coach as oppose to soley being Dirk. Its more of a collective effort. Sure Dirk is very important, but lets not negate the fact that it is a collective effort as well.

If you really want to talk MVP, you got to give it to Lebron. The 2nd best player on Lebron's team this year down the stretch is Flip Murray. Kobe has Lamar Odom and Phil Jackson for help. Nash had Marion and late-signee Tim Thomas and Coach of the Year Mike D'something. Lebron had a bunch of scrubs, an injured and understandably distracted Larry Hughes, a Rookie Coach, and an all-star center who is currently been missing the last 50 games. Yet, his team won 50 games. Lebron should have won it. Then Dirk. Then Nash. Then Kobe.

[aggypryd]

I think it was a toss-up between Lebron and Kobe...

It's kinda crazy that Iverson was in the top 10 in 3 major categories, and he doesn't even get mentioned...

[the_way]

aggypryd said:

I think it was a toss-up between Lebron and Kobe...

It's kinda crazy that Iverson was in the top 10 in 3 major categories, and he doesn't even get mentioned...

Iverson is like Shaq. They are so dominant that people kind of discount them for consideration, you know? Iverson and Shaq are MVP's ever year. They are both the most dominant players as little men and big men, respectively.

[aggypryd]

yeah...I think Iverson would have to have an absolutely ridiculous(sp) season to get it again...

[aussiehoya]

ok aggy you're wrong. to call it kobe's year is a misnomer. Yeah he scored a whole bunch, but his team went 45-37. You don't win the MVP award by being 4 games over 500.

MVP winners play on ELITE teams that WIN.

MVP winners' teams since 99' (and thats only how far back i looked) never won less than 54 regular season games and never went to anything less than their conference finals.

That's just the way the MVP trophy works. That's again why Iverson (and i love him to death) wasn't even in the picture this year. In fact, talking about AI - the year he won it, guess what his team's record was? 56-26. and they went to the finals.

So ultimately - Kobe's year? No.

[miamihoya]

I really dont buy that argument that the MVP must play on an "Elite" team. THe trophy is for most valuable player, not best team. Detroit is an ELITE team, but I wouldnt say that any of the players are MVP-worthy (nope not even Billups). They are elite because every player contributes to make it an a good team. Same goes for Miami this year. Dwayne Wade had a great season, but I wouldnt give him the MVP. Shaq and Co. contributed to make the team a top team. I actually think its in the middle of the pack teams that you often find MVP candidates because its usually that one player that put them over the top and into the playoffs. The top teams are usually well-rounded and everyone contributes. Teams like the Lakers, tho, only get into the playoffs because of the contributions of that one special player (in this case Kobe). Cavs without Lebron are a terrible team. Wizards without Gilbert are no good. These are the players that are truly the "most valuable", because they take a bad team and make them competitive. To only look at the top for MVP candidates is absolutley ridiculous.

[aussiehoya]

you don't "buy" it?

well i'm not selling it - THE LEAGUE IS.

re-read my post - it's not an opinion, it's just a FACT.

i'm done with this conversation.

by the way. Dirk for MVP.

[VelvetElvis]

aussie, Dirk was a beast last night. I think that they are going to take PHX

[FrostbackHoya]

Hey, I'll admit to a pro-Canuck bias, but what's with the anti-Nash abuse? You put a decent but not great point guard onto Phoenix, and they're 50/50 to make the playoffs w/o Amare.

I know, I know, y'all 'knew' Boris Diaw was going to be great with a new coach. Y'all 'knew' Marion could pick up Amare's slack. Y'all 'knew' Tim Thomas and Raja Bell were due for career years. Baloney. Steve Nash has a wonky back for a couple of games and the Suns almost blow it. He comes back, scores 29 & 11, and they blow away the Clips.

I know, I know... they just shot the 3 better than they should...

Nash is the MVP because he had a career year (better than his year before, when he won the MVP), was far & away the best pg in the league, and has taken a worse team farther in the playoffs. You might argue with his MVP LAST YEAR, but this year he was a no-brainer selection with Shaq hurt for a ton of games. And the voters did just that. Quit yer bellyachin' ... ;-)

Aggy -- it's you that has the blinders on. Nash doesn't 'look' like an MVP, 'cause of that greasy hair and lack of size.

[SFHoya99]

I'm with you, Frostback. I have an issue with Nash only because of his lack of defense, but it is tough to ignore that fact that they were a very good team last year, lost Joe Johnson and Quentin Richardson, and plugged Boris Diaw and Raja Bell and still were as good or better.

Nash is a stud and fun to watch. I think his whiteness works for him sometimes and against him other times. As well as his Canuckness.

Now, again, it is tough for me, because of the D...but then again, Dirk?

[RockawayHoya]

Agree with the arguments in favor of Nash as a great player and best PG in the game, but disagree he should've won MVP. Dirk? Great year and great postseason thus far, but can either really hold a candle to the season Lebron had?

[aggypryd]

Imagine the Lakers without Kobe...Imagine the Cavs without Lebron...

There is absolutely no way that Kobe Bryant should have finished 4th. There is absolutely no reason that Kobe should have been left off of 22 ballots altogether. What idiots are voting for MVP, and don't have Kobe Bryant anywhere on their ballots?

There definitely should be some clearly defined criteria for the voting.

How can you give an annual award, and the rules for winning it changes from year to year?

[kchoya]

Imagine the Suns without Nash.

[Deleted]

Imagine HoyaTalk without the_way.

[FrostbackHoya]

quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=columnist_soshnick&sid=aN.TtF.vayDA

But here's a column on why Cuban didn't keep him in Dallas.

If Amare comes back 100% next year, will the Suns be able to keep enough pieces to have a shot at the title?

[RDF]

A few comments that I didn't know where to put and didn't think warranted another thread:

1. My main point against the worshipping of Steve Nash has now happened. How is it that a 2 time, back to back MVP LEAVES and his team improves?? I'm sorry but that right there is enough to discredit this notion that Nash is at the level that he's been placed at--and the company he shares in his 2 times winning this award. I like how he plays offense, he's fun to watch, but I just think the point has to be brought up when you hear how he's a Hall of Famer despite not doing anything differently then what he did in Dallas. This guy is NOT a Hall of Famer.

2. D'Antoni reached a new level of geek-dom. The "guarantee" for next year after a Playoff exit--it happens in every sport and now you can add his name to the list. For his confidence, I'd point out that his team was also won that lost 10 Playoff Games and was lucky to surivive the First and Second Rounds. Worry about next year when it comes around--but talk is cheap--and especially after you just blew an 18 pt lead at home in Game 6.

3. If you don't play defense--you won't win. That goes for any sport. Everyone getting caught up in Suns mania seems to forget they were one defensive rebound away from biting it in First Round and while they were limited due to injuries--and I focus on Amare because Kurt Thomas is NOT a difference maker at all because he's a lousy defensive player as well--their style of play won't win until they get after it on defense more--and they have the talent/athleticism to do that. D'Antoni is going to have to adjust his style a bit though and is he willing to do that? He seems hell bent on proving a point about his "style of play" and while I love the offense--I hate the easy shots they give up and how easy it is to enter the paint agains them.

4. With all of the above said, the Heat are lucky they don't have to play the Suns--that would've been the worst possible matchup for them--with O'Neal and Zo being forced to run the court for 48 minutes? Everyone says Shaq would score at will, but would he be in position to score after running the floor an entire game?

5. Zo is 4 games away from a Ring--here's hoping it happens and that Heat take out Cuban and the Mavs--nothing against them, but they are in way of getting Zo a ring and mark me down as a Heat "homer" for the Finals!!

OTHER NBA RELATED TOPICS

1. Does Flip Saunders get canned? Remember the Pistons got rid of Rick Carlisle after he produced some solid seasons for them. If they do fire Saunders, who would they target?

2. Does Ben Wallace re-sign with Pistons? Even if it is for less money? He hired a big name Agent and you know some team is going throw a ton of money at him which will force Detroit to match or even go Max? Are they willing to do that for a guy who is getting older and will be less productive--which makes him even more of a role player?

3. If Saunders stays, what team will Rasheed Wallace be suiting up for next year? There isn't any way I see those two together next year.

4. Does AI finally get traded this year? If so, where? If not, how will Billy King screw up the roster to waste another year of his career?

5. Which player in the upcoming Draft do you think will be the best NBA Player? Now this can be hard to project in a year like this--where there are some good players, but nobody who jumps out as a sure thing, dominant player. These are type of Drafts where teams get better though--by taking guys who are more suited for NBA then many of the College talking heads and NBA Draft gurus think. I like Brandon Roy out of Washington, thought he had most complete game of anyone in College this past year, but I admit to knowing nothing about the guy from Italy who is the supposed next Dirk Nowitski. Another guy I like is this 7'0 guy from Belgium who played in the Hoop Summit--He's a project, but a monster who has raw skills and if he's given time to develop could be a nice fit for a team--Saer or something like that. Runs the floor well, dunks/attacks the rim, and just needs polish, but he has basics down for such a huge kid--he can play. Also think Marcus Williams of UConn will be a great get for any team.

Players I'm not as high on--Shelden Williams--prepare to see a replay of the Jeff Green torching he got over and over

Rudy Gay--he's a "pretty player" and I see a Vince Carter like attitude which is NOT good.

Rajon Rondo--GARBAGE

Most interesting player to follow--Adam Morrison--will his tough guy antics stay with him or will he punk out the minute he eats an elbow and gets the dogcrap kicked out of him?? It's going to happen, so seeing how he responds will be interesting and if he can hack it, which I didn't question until his total meltdown during the UCLA game which was not only gutless, it was pathetic.

Just a few NBA Hoop related topics on a slow weekend due to being sicker then a dog.

[aussiehoya]

Ok i think we've had enough of the nash talk..

Great that Dirk continues to make my Dirk MVP call look good.

To address some of your comments RDF:

1. On Phoenix - i think it's tough to really get a solid read on a team that's missing it's best player. It's true that the Suns were hanging on by a thread more than once in these playoffs, but Amare was out. So I would say that you have to reserve your judgement or at least put an asterisk over it.

Your questions were some things I've been thinking about recently:

(a) Do you fire Flip? Is there some old hubie brown / mike fratello-type lying in a closet dumars could dust off and put on the sidelines? Flip just doesn't have what it takes to coach in the postseason. I know it would almost be unfair to get rid of him, but don't you get the feeling that things will be getting worse, not better, over the long term, with flip. If I'm Dumars, I would just pull the trigger now on this. On the question of 'sheed - i think he's 10x more valuable than flip. Forced to choose, I take sheed every time.

(b) And does Ben Wallace stick around? I think it all depends on the dollars. I'll be interested to see what happens with that one. To be honest I think the pistons are really getting long in the tooth. Just tired of that arrogance, tired of "rip" wearing a mask, tired of tayshaun prince's bad posture, tired of sheed's on-court complaints (and i used to LOVE the guy). They're just a team i'm sick of seeing. I'm glad they're out of the post-season.

(c) NBA draft. After a quick cruise through a mock, I like Hilton Armstrong. The guy physically is a beast and has the mean streak you need to play effectively down low. He really improved in leaps and bounds over the past couple of years - I think he could be a better than serviceable guy in the league if things fall the right way for him. One guy I'll be watching is JJ Redick though - I'm really curious to see how his career pans out - I'm in the sport's guy's camp on this one - I think he'll be good. I just don't really want to elaborate on why yet, suffice it to say that right now he's one of the top 3 shooters in the nation pro or college.

(e) Rudy Gay? Forget him. Until he produces I'm not wasting my time on this clown. Without the press and hype this guy is a marginal contributor who disappeared for large stretches of games.

(d) I'll leave your AI question alone for now. But I would be REAL happy if could end up on a contending team. I realize that's not going to happen though...

[aggypryd]

kchoya said:

Imagine the Suns without Nash.

The Suns are definitely a crappy team without Nash. But I think they win 30 games if he's not playing. The Mavs are no good without Dirk, but they win 40 games in his absence.

The Lakers without Kobe or the Cavs without Lebron will struggle to get to 20 wins.

Kobe and King James just meant more to their teams.