How much do you hate barry bonds?

[Deleted]

Where the hell did this come from, Billy boy? He cheat on his wife with your sister or something?

[Deleted]

That is pretty nasty. But don't you think your (and most other people's) distate for Bonds comes from his being a prick to the public and media all these years?

For instance, let's say the same information came out about Sosa or McGwire or any other "fan favorite." Sure those guys would be villified, but would they inspire the same venom?

Note: I'm not asking to be a prick or defend Bonds (whom I don't care much for), I'm just curious.

[the_way]

I've always liked Bonds. He was only a jerk to the media who are a bunch of jerks anyway. They like to do what they want with you if you let them, Bonds doesn't let them,and they can't stand it. Its the same with JT2. They called him "controversial" because he controlled what was being reported and said about his program with the media. Nothing controversial about that. The media is a bunch of jerks for the most part.

[Jack]

Only the_way could defend Barry Bonds at this point. Please tell me you did not actually read the cnnsi.com piece, otherwise there is no excuse for continuing to support him. The man is an obsessive cheater in every aspect of his life and he deserves all the scorn that is coming his way. Too bad, because he was a very good baseball player on his way to the Hall of Fame until he got jealous of McGwire and decided to become a total freak.

[the_way]

jack said:

Only the_way could defend Barry Bonds at this point. Please tell me you did not actually read the cnnsi.com piece, otherwise there is no excuse for continuing to support him. The man is an obsessive cheater in every aspect of his life and he deserves all the scorn that is coming his way. Too bad, because he was a very good baseball player on his way to the Hall of Fame until he got jealous of McGwire and decided to become a total freak.

What would I have to read it for. One, its a book. Two, we don't know if it is 100% true or not. Three, I could really give a *bleep* what was in the book. I saw the article you are talking about. Didn't faze me one bit. People have agendas and they will do what it takes to make them feel good about themselves. Whether Bonds did what he did is really insignificant. I'm just amused by the great lengths people go to assasinate him in the press. It really says more about them then it does Bonds. They the bad guys! (c) Scarface.

Bonds is a good guy. Only the media hates him because Bonds pulls their card and sees them for what they are. And most naive fans believe what the media says anyway, so I don't expect people to like Barry. They just roll with the rush.

[Deleted]

_way, not to play Devil's advocate, but there are scores of former teammates who have said Bonds is a prick, doesn't care about his teammates, is all about himself, etc. Being a guy who claims to love team, and doing what it takes to win stats be damned, I'm surprised you're that big a fan of this guy. I personally don't hate Bonds, I'm ambivalent. Don't love him, don't hate him, just don't care about him.

Also, your comment "whether Bonds did what he did is really insignificant" is probably the dumbest thing you've ever said. If he DID use/do all these things that have been alleged, the guy will go down as the biggest fraud in the history of sports. Bar none.

I personally don't care "what kind of guy" athletes are. If they are pricks but they get the job done (Reggie Jackson comes to mind), they get the job done. That's it. When analyzing athletes, I care only about what they do on the field. Their personal life doesn't concern me unless it impinges on their professional life (i.e. Pete Rose betting on baseball games). In the case of Bonds, I really don't care if he's an Edited or a bad teammate. All I care about his is on-field production, winning championships, etc. And if all his achievements are the result of what is alleged IN COURT DOCUMENTS, the guy is a fraud plain and simple.

Either way, events of the last couple years have given me a whole new appreciation for guys like Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Schmidt, etc.

Finally, you should know better than to compare JT to Bonds. JT did everything for his kids, his school, and what he thought was Right. He's one of the most socially-transcendent figures in the history of sport. Bonds admitted to at LEAST using "the Cream" and "the Clear" and ergo has by definition cheated at some point in his career. There are no accounts by reporters, teammates, anyone that show he's anything but a me-first, team-be-damned kind of guy... the exact opposite of JT.

[Deleted]

_way does raise an interesting point - why is this information in a book? Why didn't this appear in the authors' newspaper? Did it not pass through the fact-checkers sufficiently? Did it not meet some other standard a newspaper has that a mere book would not?

Hmmm...

[the_way]

buffalohoya said:

_way, not to play Devil's advocate, but there are scores of former teammates who have said Bonds is a prick, doesn't care about his teammates, is all about himself, etc. Being a guy who claims to love team, and doing what it takes to win stats be damned, I'm surprised you're that big a fan of this guy. I personally don't hate Bonds, I'm ambivalent. Don't love him, don't hate him, just don't care about him.

Also, your comment "whether Bonds did what he did is really insignificant" is probably the dumbest thing you've ever said. If he DID use/do all these things that have been alleged, the guy will go down as the biggest fraud in the history of sports. Bar none.

I personally don't care "what kind of guy" athletes are. If they are pricks but they get the job done (Reggie Jackson comes to mind), they get the job done. That's it. When analyzing athletes, I care only about what they do on the field. Their personal life doesn't concern me unless it impinges on their professional life (i.e. Pete Rose betting on baseball games). In the case of Bonds, I really don't care if he's an Edited or a bad teammate. All I care about his is on-field production, winning championships, etc. And if all his achievements are the result of what is alleged IN COURT DOCUMENTS, the guy is a fraud plain and simple.

Either way, events of the last couple years have given me a whole new appreciation for guys like Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Schmidt, etc.

Finally, you should know better than to compare JT to Bonds. JT did everything for his kids, his school, and what he thought was Right. He's one of the most socially-transcendent figures in the history of sport. Bonds admitted to at LEAST using "the Cream" and "the Clear" and ergo has by definition cheated at some point in his career. There are no accounts by reporters, teammates, anyone that show he's anything but a me-first, team-be-damned kind of guy... the exact opposite of JT.

Buff. I wasn't comparing JT2 to Barry Bonds. What I said was that in dealing with the media, you are tagged a certain way. JT2 was perceived as controversial, a racist, etc. But that was only because he didn't let the media controll him and his program. He controlled the media. They didn't like that.

Barry is the same way with the media. Their are a lot of players who are jerks to their teammates and hated by teammates, but yet are praised and loved by the Media. That was what I was talking about in terms of JT2 and Barry Bonds. Not that they are same person. Its how you deal with the media is how they paint you as a person. Eddie Murray was one of the nicest guys and greatest teammates and players out there. But he was to himself and reserved when he dealt with the media. The media didn't like him, and some even were ambivalent about voting him into the hall of fame. Why? It wasn't because of his numbers. It was because of how he dealt with them. That is my point.


Whether Bonds cheated if you read that Document, it said in 1998 is when he started taking steriods. Befor then, he was already perceived as the best player in baseball. It was no question about it. So can't say he was a fraud, before he ALLEGEDLY started taking them, if he was already considered the best of his era in the game without them. Many have said, they can't understand why he would take them, he was already the best player.

But, if we are going to go after Bonds with so much vigor, then lets go after everybody with as much vigor. Because, quiet as kept, steroids were apart of baseball. The league knew it and did nothing about it. I wonder why? Did they approve of it? hmm...

[FormerHoya]

_way does raise an interesting point - why is this information in a book? Why didn't this appear in the authors' newspaper? Did it not pass through the fact-checkers sufficiently? Did it not meet some other standard a newspaper has that a mere book would not?

Book=more money for the authors.

If you had done several years of research to back up your story, and you had the option, would you publish it in your newspaper getting no more credit nor financial gain than you would for a story about a highschool autistic student manager, or would you publish a book about it so that you would stand to gain prestige and money.

The fact that they did it in a book makes it no less true than if it were in a paper.

[FormerHoya]

theway said:

[quote author=buffalohoya board=pro thread=1141766623 post=1141773557
But, if we are going to go after Bonds with so much vigor, then lets go after everybody with as much vigor. Because, quiet as kept, steroids were apart of baseball. The league knew it and did nothing about it. I wonder why? Did they approve of it? hmm...

Good. Lets. Doesn't change the fact that Bonds is a cheating bastard. This a valid point that has no bearing on your defense of Bonds.

[Deleted]

_way, Bonds has never been much of a defensive player. For argument's sake lets say Bonds used NO 'ROIDS pre-1998. I still think at that point Griffey Jr. was the best ALL-AROUND player in the game.

[the_way]

formerhoya2 said:

theway said:

[quote author=buffalohoya board=pro thread=1141766623 post=1141773557
But, if we are going to go after Bonds with so much vigor, then lets go after everybody with as much vigor. Because, quiet as kept, steroids were apart of baseball. The league knew it and did nothing about it. I wonder why? Did they approve of it? hmm...

Good. Lets. Doesn't change the fact that Bonds is a cheating bastard. This a valid point that has no bearing on your defense of Bonds.

Who is defending Bonds? Because you are persecuting him and I'm providing another way of looking at it, does not mean I am defending him.

[the_way]

buffalohoya said:

_way, Bonds has never been much of a defensive player. For argument's sake lets say Bonds used NO 'ROIDS pre-1998. I still think at that point Griffey Jr. was the best ALL-AROUND player in the game.

Are you referring to the infamous Sid Bream incident? ;D

[AustinHoya03]

buffalohoya said:

_way, Bonds has never been much of a defensive player. For argument's sake lets say Bonds used NO 'ROIDS pre-1998. I still think at that point Griffey Jr. was the best ALL-AROUND player in the game.

Eight Gold Gloves doesn't do it for you, Buff?

BTW, wanna guess what year Bonds won his last Gold Glove? 1998.

[AustinHoya03]

formerhoya2 said:

theway said:

[quote author=buffalohoya board=pro thread=1141766623 post=1141773557
But, if we are going to go after Bonds with so much vigor, then lets go after everybody with as much vigor. Because, quiet as kept, steroids were apart of baseball. The league knew it and did nothing about it. I wonder why? Did they approve of it? hmm...

Good. Lets. Doesn't change the fact that Bonds is a cheating bastard. This a valid point that has no bearing on your defense of Bonds.

I'm starting to want Bud to put an asterisk on all season statistics from the season following the strike up until two years ago, when nobody hit 50 HRs. But no asterisks next to individuals (unless they get caught cheating like Raffy). Let McGwire have his 70 HR season, let Barry pass Hank Aaron, let average joes like Brady Anderson keep their 50 HR years. But baseball will soon have to acknowledge that it helped create an environment in which cheaters could flourish, and maintained that environment for quite some time.

[Madgesdiq]

I think Mark McGwire should be brought to Cooperstown, handcuffed to a chair and forced to sit in front of a 50 inch flatscreen TV displaying his pathetic testimony from the MLB hearings over and over again as a "live exhibit."

[the_way]

madgesdiq said:

I think Mark McGwire should be brought to Cooperstown, handcuffed to a chair and forced to sit in front of a 50 inch flatscreen TV displaying his pathetic testimony from the MLB hearings over and over again as a "live exhibit."

But that would be "talking about the past". ;D

[SirSaxa]

There's no question Bonds was a great player before the 'roids.
THere's also no question... even before this latest story.. that Bonds was on 'roids and for quite some time. Just look at his body.

Was he the best - before the supplements? That's so hard to say about anyone. But he was certainly one of the best.

But to suggest he won't be perceived as a fraud because he was already the best before the 'roids is inaccurate. Of course he will. Take a look at the numbers. The SF CHronicle story actually says he started in 1997 with supplements, then the shots in 1998.

Bonds ............. pre-1997 1997-2004
At Bats ............. ....... 503 445
Batting Average ........ .288 .320
Home Runs ............... 30.4 46.1
At Bats per HRs. ....... 18.25 10.09


Also, to suggest that McGwire wasn't also villified is mistaken. He already has been. But he is also retired and staying out of the public eye.
Sosa has been seriously questioned as well and his reputation seriously tainted.

The difference with Bonds is his adamant and indignant denials.
And yes, he has always had a reputation as a jerk.
If one wishes to believe the media made that all up, I guess that's your choice. It doesn't seem to be supported by anything other than one's personal belief based on nothing verifiable.

And yes, the writers published a book.
Excerpts had already been published by the SF Chronicle.
And they went to great lengths to document their sources and information.
So good for them. I hope they do make some money on the book. They put a lot of work into it.

If someone wants to disregard all of the factual information and all of the anecdotes from scores of teammates and everything that could objectively be measured and simply believe what they wish anyway, well. Why not. Lots of people still don't believe in evolution either.

[Deleted]

I hate Barry Bonds because he eats babies and beats up grannies in the streets.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I think its pretty indefensible to call him a "good guy." He's got a track record of being not only frosty to the media and a jerk to his teammates concerned only with his own stats, but he's had enough public embarassments stemming from his personal life he could join the Trail Blazers.