DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 13, 2006 20:12:46 GMT -5
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hoya4ever
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 805
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Post by hoya4ever on Dec 13, 2006 21:36:15 GMT -5
This is not necessarily a bad thing considering our team has not done well. New leadership is needed from time to time.
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Post by htownhoya09 on Dec 13, 2006 21:53:13 GMT -5
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hoyaLS05
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,652
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Post by hoyaLS05 on Dec 13, 2006 21:57:34 GMT -5
This is not necessarily a bad thing considering our team has not done well. New leadership is needed from time to time. I agree. Our team has been pretty bad this year and we keep losing swimmers, for various reasons. Something needs to be done to make this program matter again and make it competitive in the Big East. As stands today, it is not. Hopefully Muir can find someone who is up for the challenge.
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Post by R Street Hoya on Dec 14, 2006 1:18:47 GMT -5
This is not necessarily a bad thing considering our team has not done well. New leadership is needed from time to time. That depends on how you define doing well. The team's record is bad, however if you look at the times put up by each swimmer, the team keeps getting faster. That improvement is pretty much hidden by the fact that the team has less swimmers (and as a result has a limit on how many points it can score in a meet) and has been swimming against much more difficult teams this season.
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hoya4ever
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by hoya4ever on Dec 14, 2006 6:36:11 GMT -5
A team doing well also refers to the actual team dynamics and trust me those kids are in no way doing well in that. There are some very necessary messageboard rules that prevent us from discussing certain matters, say about the coach's style of treatment of the kids, or their personality, that would further explain why this is good.
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Post by R Street Hoya on Dec 14, 2006 9:30:38 GMT -5
Trust me, I know. Thankfully there are rules against discussing those issues on the board. I don't think, however, its fair to assume that all the team dynamic issues or turnover problems would be solved by changing the head coach. My point was meant to be that the Hoya article is overwhelmingly negative and only highlights the current year team record and the fact that there were turnover issues. If you look at where the program was when the coach took over though, and where it is now, you'd see the vast improvements which have been made.
My comment was also meant to be a reply to hoyals comment regarding making the program matter again and competitive in the Big East. First off, the team was never competitive in the BE. However, the team was becoming more competitive in the Big East, as can be seen by team members qualifying for BE champs and steadily improving times. This improvement is hidden by the fact that the team is now swimming incresingly against scholarship programs, both from the BE and other conferences, as opposed to previous years, when the team would swim 1or 2, if any, meets against a Big East team. Even then, it would usually be against a team which georgetown was more evenly matched against, such as BC or Providence, neither of which swim in the BE any more. Maybe a new coach will increase the number of swimmers on the team, but simply changing the coach doesn't erase the huge disadvantage the team is at when they swim against programs which are better funded.
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hoyaLS05
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,652
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Post by hoyaLS05 on Dec 14, 2006 12:02:21 GMT -5
Trust me, I know. Thankfully there are rules against discussing those issues on the board. I don't think, however, its fair to assume that all the team dynamic issues or turnover problems would be solved by changing the head coach. My point was meant to be that the Hoya article is overwhelmingly negative and only highlights the current year team record and the fact that there were turnover issues. If you look at where the program was when the coach took over though, and where it is now, you'd see the vast improvements which have been made. My comment was also meant to be a reply to hoyals comment regarding making the program matter again and competitive in the Big East. First off, the team was never competitive in the BE. However, the team was becoming more competitive in the Big East, as can be seen by team members qualifying for BE champs and steadily improving times. This improvement is hidden by the fact that the team is now swimming incresingly against scholarship programs, both from the BE and other conferences, as opposed to previous years, when the team would swim 1or 2, if any, meets against a Big East team. Even then, it would usually be against a team which georgetown was more evenly matched against, such as BC or Providence, neither of which swim in the BE any more. Maybe a new coach will increase the number of swimmers on the team, but simply changing the coach doesn't erase the huge disadvantage the team is at when they swim against programs which are better funded. The program would matter again if people WANT to be on the team, and any new coach worth their salt should be able to improve that. I think thats all we need to say on that. As far as competing in the Big East, if we are going to stay in the Big East, why can't we strive to compete? Yes, the financial obstacles are signifcant ones, but are people seriously OK with losing records year in and year out? We need to at least set the goal of competing...as a team. The individual accomplishments are excellent, but for better or for worse, there is a team component to the sport.
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Jack on Dec 14, 2006 12:06:08 GMT -5
I'm ok with losing records as long as the program is not costing too much money and is bringing in good students. Hiring a new coach who will create a better atmosphere is fine, but beyond that, why would anyone care about swimming to spend real money on it? If the counter-argument is why bother having a program if you are not trying to win, well, you got me.
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Post by htownhoya09 on Dec 14, 2006 12:08:46 GMT -5
Yeah, the discussion about the swimming kind of just brings up what is the point, in general, about having sports where we are consistently going to be bad at them? Maybe Georgetown should focus on the sports that we are capable at being good at, mostly basketball and lacrosse, and go DIII in others. It sounds drastic, but I don't think anyone enjoys having losing season after losing season in some of these sports.
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Jack on Dec 14, 2006 12:14:17 GMT -5
Yeah, the discussion about the swimming kind of just brings up what is the point, in general, about having sports where we are consistently going to be bad at them? Maybe Georgetown should focus on the sports that we are capable at being good at, mostly basketball and lacrosse, and go DIII in others. It sounds drastic, but I don't think anyone enjoys having losing season after losing season in some of these sports. Unfortunately that is not an option. The NCAA has rules that you must be in the same division for all sports, with a couple of notable exceptions (Hopkins in lax, RPI in hockey, etc.). You either play D-I or you give up the sport. That is why Georgetown moved from D-III to the MAAC in football. Likewise, the Big East has rules that you must be in the conference for all sports but one if you field a varsity team. So field hockey escapes the rigors of Big East play, but baseball, swimming, etc. have to hang in there.
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hoyaLS05
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaLS05 on Dec 14, 2006 13:09:31 GMT -5
I'm ok with losing records as long as the program is not costing too much money and is bringing in good students. Hiring a new coach who will create a better atmosphere is fine, but beyond that, why would anyone care about swimming to spend real money on it? If the counter-argument is why bother having a program if you are not trying to win, well, you got me. Unfortunately that is not an option. The NCAA has rules that you must be in the same division for all sports, with a couple of notable exceptions (Hopkins in lax, RPI in hockey, etc.). You either play D-I or you give up the sport. That is why Georgetown moved from D-III to the MAAC in football. Likewise, the Big East has rules that you must be in the conference for all sports but one if you field a varsity team. So field hockey escapes the rigors of Big East play, but baseball, swimming, etc. have to hang in there. Field hockey no longer escapes those rigors...they just completed their first (winless) season in the Big East. As far as your first post goes, I pretty much would make the counterargument -- why bother if we're just gonna lose -- and I agree, finding an answer is difficult. I really don't like this attitude of 'we can't compete, but we'll try to anyway.' Yes, this is college, and yes, these are students, not professionals, but we're talking Big East, Division I. 'Doing it for the experience' doesn't cut it at this level, IMO, not when the university is spending a decent chunk of change on that experience (even if its not as much money as we spend on other sports).
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Dec 14, 2006 13:39:06 GMT -5
Field Hockey moved to Big East play this year, and Softball now has the exemption.
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Post by R Street Hoya on Dec 14, 2006 13:40:24 GMT -5
As far as your first post goes, I pretty much would make the counterargument -- why bother if we're just gonna lose -- and I agree, finding an answer is difficult. I really don't like this attitude of 'we can't compete, but we'll try to anyway.' Yes, this is college, and yes, these are students, not professionals, but we're talking Big East, Division I. 'Doing it for the experience' doesn't cut it at this level, IMO, not when the university is spending a decent chunk of change on that experience (even if its not as much money as we spend on other sports). Isn't one of Georgetown's principles about educating the whole person or something along those lines? Providing opportunities to compete in sports, even those we can't compete in, falls under that. Obviously there needs to be an evaluation of the costs vs. the benefits, but swimming is not an expensive sport for the athletic department.
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hoyaLS05
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaLS05 on Dec 14, 2006 14:06:02 GMT -5
As far as your first post goes, I pretty much would make the counterargument -- why bother if we're just gonna lose -- and I agree, finding an answer is difficult. I really don't like this attitude of 'we can't compete, but we'll try to anyway.' Yes, this is college, and yes, these are students, not professionals, but we're talking Big East, Division I. 'Doing it for the experience' doesn't cut it at this level, IMO, not when the university is spending a decent chunk of change on that experience (even if its not as much money as we spend on other sports). Isn't one of Georgetown's principles about educating the whole person or something along those lines? Providing opportunities to compete in sports, even those we can't compete in, falls under that. Obviously there needs to be an evaluation of the costs vs. the benefits, but swimming is not an expensive sport for the athletic department. I don't totally disagree with you; there are certainly benefits to competing in the sport, even if the team isn't "competing." But don't all of the Georgetown students (like myself) get an education of the whole person without playing a varsity sport? You can certainly still get a well-rounded education 'of the whole person' without being a varsity athlete. I don't have a firm stance on this, but I just feel like theres something weird about attempting to compete if success is a longshot. Thats just my take on it. I think our goal should be getting to a place where the Coach doesn't need to say something like this in the hoya: “It’s not like basketball where the No. 1 team won’t hit their baskets. You can see going into it whether you’re going to win or lose; so, you continue to look at the individual performances,” Bower said. “Unless they come out with 20 pound weights on their suits, the results will be what you predict.” Losing shouldn't be that predictable.
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Post by R Street Hoya on Dec 14, 2006 14:56:47 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to imply you couldn't get a well rounded education without playing sports, just saying offering the sports opens up more options for how each student choses to get their well rounded education. I also think there's an added benefit in that having the sports (not just swimming, but all the sports offered) attracts students to Georgetown, which has the potential to enrich the student body and the experience for all students, athlete or not.
Unfortunately, unlike in basketball or other sports, there isn't much of a chance for upsets. If teams are relatively evenly matched, it will come down to how everyone swims and be competetive. When you go up against a team that is much deeper and faster, though, the result is pretty much set before the meet begins. I do agree though, that despite the hoya quote being completely true, it was pretty sad.
I completely agree that the goal should be to get the team to a point where they at least have a shot going into their meets. I think that will take several years.
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hoyaLS05
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaLS05 on Dec 14, 2006 15:12:23 GMT -5
I think that will take several years. Aint that the story of Georgetown athletics.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Dec 14, 2006 15:16:03 GMT -5
Perhaps if swimming was given scholorships and did serious recruiting, then perhaps we could compete at a D1 level, but don't ask me where the money is for that
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Post by R Street Hoya on Dec 14, 2006 15:52:54 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't see scholarships happening. Even if the Athletic Department had money to throw around on scholarships, swimming would be one of the last teams to get them. I think while recruiting wasn't a problem, since the program has been attracting increasingly fast swimmers, it could improve under a new coach.
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hoya4ever
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by hoya4ever on Dec 14, 2006 16:32:26 GMT -5
I know the diving kids do well academically (really well!). I'm not sure about the swimming kids but assuming that they also do, does that affect some sort of athlete GPA index that we are ranked on?
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