easyed...im going to say bennett is...

[ron]

a racist...and not so subtle. you spoke of context before, but lack it yourself. bennett responded as ignorantly as he did to a caller who had referred to steven levitt's theory held forth in "freakanomics" that the drop in crime over the last 15 years can be tied to roe v wade...i.e. poor women who would have disporportionately raised their children alone and resultingly, statistically (which contain obvious flaws) aborted fetuses (sp?) that would have disproportiontely (again using flawed stats) been more likely to land in jail, or commit crimes.

with that context set, it's is more than curious that levitt did single out black people. in levitt's original piece on the subject, he did mention race, but attributed most of the decline to the premise above (it was a paper, that was used in freakanomics). he even mentioned that his theory had traction in countries where different races typically don't exist, like eastern europe and scandanavia. hence, no racial bias.

what is even more curious, that a smart guy like bennett wouldn't analyze his own thoughts for veracity. there is some truth to the final solution-like musings he quickly tried to distance himself from. but the same concentration camp-esque suggestion would go for white mass abortion, hispanic mass abortion, and asian mass abortion....crime would decrease in all instances.

with the very real and abominable history of official and unofficial sterilization of black people not being countenanced (and it needs to be), bennett needs to be analyzed through the lens of a very intelligent man, who at least subconsciously and reflexively equates crime to black people primarily. levitt's theory was the window into bennett's true feelings.

he's not an uneducated, unexposed bumpkin. bennett is an enducated, ostensibly (and self proclaimed) thinker not prone for believing and parrotting racist dogma. but clearly he is afflicted by the same infirmity that affects many here....the sociological lie of black inferiority and innate anti-social nature, and white superiority. if he was truly musing about the effects of abortion on social engineering, black people would not have been the only section of society reviewed. and he wouldn't have obviously ignored the impact of sociological context on the individuals being subjected to his musings, and their responses to it.

thanks bill, you just confirmed what was previously known.

[SirSaxa]

ron said:

but clearly he is afflicted by the same infirmity that affects many here....the sociological lie of black inferiority and innate anti-social nature, and white superiority.

Ron... good post up until the line above. Accusing "many here" of racism is outrageous and unfounded.

[EasyEd]

Ron, I won't attempt to respond. Your post speaks for itself.

[kchoya]

Ron, why do you feel the need to create an entirely separate thread on the same topic? Are you incapable of responding to the thread already started, or do you just feel that you are too important to be confined to a previous thread?

[ron]

and kc, i didn't want the thread to be buried under mutliple pages of material, and consequently be read.

can you respond to the information presented in the post, or are you going to focus on irrlevant issues such where the post is placed?

sir saxa...i was trying to say in this country, not specifically this board. though i do believe some guys her are racists...and have received hate email accordingly.

[SirSaxa]

ron said:

sir saxa...i was trying to say in this country, not specifically this board. though i do believe some guys her are racists...and have received hate email accordingly.

Ron... I am appalled that you would receive hate mail from members of this board. I mean that. There is no excuse, especially at a Jesuit institution.

As for the country, I don't know of anyone who would deny there is racism here -- as there is in every country in the world, including those in Africa (e.g. Rwanda, Sudan, etc.). In Asia, the Japanese don't like Koreans and look down on Filipinos. There are innumerable examples. Racism is a global issue, not just an American issue. So is discrimination based on gender, religion, income, class, and who knows what else.

At least in this country these issues get addressed and there has been significant improvement in recent decades. Clearly, there is still a long way to go -- the Bennett comments and the disgraceful lack of response in New Orleans are just two recent reminders.

[kchoya]

Are you saying that the "lack of response" in New Orleans was rascist in some way? I think all levels of government did a horrible job, but I don't think that race was an issue. However, if you think race did play a part, then you would have to say that Bush, Brown, Blanco and Nagin all did a poor job because of race.

[hoyaboy1]

I tend to believe in incompetence until proven racist.

[Frank Black]

For a long time posts like Ron drove me up the wall. But I think black folks continue to be rightly and deeply suspicious when white people talk on race. Let me do a quick timeline of black people's American experience:

1620-1865: Slaves
1865-1965: Jim Crow, Lynchings
1965-present: Exponential improvements

For the last 40 years, black people have attained an acceptance from and (political) equality with white people that is pretty unbelievable given the first 345 years of their experience in this country. This I think largely explains the differing reactions to Bennett and Ron and others' willingness to throw the 'R' word around. I heard Bennett's comments and I thought, "I see his point. A profound Nazi-like racist could turn the Social Security argument on its head and say society is better off owing to abortion because crime will go down." But black folks, in the shadow of 350 years of unspeakable misery largely at the hands of white people, hear, "This white dude wants to kill us all." The emotional reaction to it is understandable if not in my view correct. I think both sides of this debate would do well to put themselves in the other sides' shoes.

[kchoya]

Frank: I think the truth lies in the middle (as in most cases). There's probably more racism out there than I realize because I'm not actively looking for it and it overtly affect me. At the same time, there are people who are looking for racist undertones where there may be none.

If one wants to automatically exclude a certain population (white people) from being able to speak about race, that's fine. However, solutions will then be much harder to come by. If you're automatically suspicious of one's motives, then there's simply that much more to overcome to continue making progress.

[aggypryd]

frankblack said:

For a long time posts like Ron drove me up the wall. But I think black folks continue to be rightly and deeply suspicious when white people talk on race. Let me do a quick timeline of black people's American experience:

1620-1865: Slaves
1865-1965: Jim Crow, Lynchings
1965-present: Exponential improvements

For the last 40 years, black people have attained an acceptance from and (political) equality with white people that is pretty unbelievable given the first 345 years of their experience in this country. This I think largely explains the differing reactions to Bennett and Ron and others' willingness to throw the 'R' word around. I heard Bennett's comments and I thought, "I see his point. A profound Nazi-like racist could turn the Social Security argument on its head and say society is better off owing to abortion because crime will go down." But black folks, in the shadow of 350 years of unspeakable misery largely at the hands of white people, hear, "This white dude wants to kill us all." The emotional reaction to it is understandable if not in my view correct. I think both sides of this debate would do well to put themselves in the other sides' shoes.

Nope...I didn't hear that...Once again, a blanket perception about Black people...

The actual racist part was that Blacks are the reason there is so much crime in the United States...

Things have improved, but let's not kid ourselves...We still live in a society where I'm more likely to be pulled over by the cops in Potomac, MD than you are to be pulled over in Capitol Heights...

From my personal experience, I recall several white customers at Dillards' in Greensboro asking me to put their change on the counter for fear that I might touch their hand.

I remember when Susan Smith said that a Black man car-jacked her and kidnapped her kids. That gave every cop from Florida to Virginia free reign to pull us over and search our cars and harass us. And since that was the weekend of a lot of Black College Homecomings, the cops were really busy...

These are a fraction of the things that we, as Black people, don't forget...nor should we...we'd be stupid if we did...Because if we don't take note and complain about it, it will definitely keep on happening...

We've come a long way, but the type of Utopia that kchoya is talking about will be seen by our children's, children's, children...not by us...

Pick up a book about William Lynch, kchoya...

[kchoya]

1. I don't think any type of utopia exists or will ever exist
2. I don't deny racism exists, I've seen it myself
3. I don't think Bennett was saying that blacks are the reason that there is so much crime in the U.S. It's a statistical fact that the crime rate among blacks is higher than among white. However, there are multiple issues with how crime numbers are calculated and interpreted.
4. Are you talking about the infamous Willie Lynch letter, or another William Lynch?

[aggypryd]

kchoya said:

4. Are you talking about the infamous Willie Lynch letter, or another William Lynch?

William Lynch, The Slave-owner...

[Frank Black]

Critique duly noted, aggrypd. I shouldn't have suggested that all black folks think a certain way.

Its easy for me to be optimistic, I don't deal with the all too frequent harrassment that so many black folks do.

[aggypryd]

No problem, Frank Black...

I hope it didn't sound like I was biting your head off...It's an emotional topic, and believe it or not, I let my emotions get the best of me.

I do appreciate the fact that there are some here that are willing to discuss such topics objectively. I admit, I haven't heard very much from Bennett. And from that one statement, I lumped him in with a group of people that I'm not quite fond of.

[SirSaxa]

kchoya said:

Are you saying that the "lack of response" in New Orleans was rascist in some way? I think all levels of government did a horrible job, but I don't think that race was an issue. However, if you think race did play a part, then you would have to say that Bush, Brown, Blanco and Nagin all did a poor job because of race.

Thank you for your comment KC, but there is no logic that requires anyone to confuse inadequate planning and incompetence on the part of local/state authorities with the lack of response -- and the reasons for that lack of response -- by Federal officials.

The more relevant question is why do I see the disgraceful Federal "response" as evidence of racism. The first part of my response is that it is a combination of race and class... and I don't know that anyone can clearly differentiate between those two in this case.

The second part is to imagine a different group of people being stranded in the Superdome and Convention Center... day after day, no water, no food, overflowing toilets, no law and order, no communication from authorities, no rescue. We all saw the group of people there -- they were primarily poor and black. Now comes the imagining part. Imagine it were a group of Christian fundamentalists -- throw in guests speakers Pat Robertson and Ralph Reed. Can you picture the president sitting on his ass on vacation at his ranch, ignoring the situation? Can you picture the entire administration sitting around doing nothing? OK, second group, a bunch of Girl Scouts from Salt Lake City Utah. 10,000 of them. And they all look like Elizabeth Smart, that blond kid who was kidnapped out of her bedroom a couple years back. Anderson Cooper down there with his CNN camera crew broadcasting this to America. And the president still sits on his ass and doesn't do squat.

If you can honestly tell yourself that the response, or lack of response, would have been exactly the same in either of those two alternative scenarios, then you can honestly tell yourself that race -- and class -- had nothing to do with the completely inept "response" by the Bush and the Federal govt.

I have not been able to convince myself that would have been the case. To me, it is quite clear that never would have been allowed to happen.

Another part of this is why FEMA was decimated since Bush became president and why a thoroughly unqualified crony was put in charge. This by an administration that has been repeatedly telling us they are the only ones who can keep us safe, the only ones with the effiicient CEO management style to be prepared for any disaster -- terrorist or otherwise -- that might befall us.

And a BIG part of FEMA's responsibility is supposed to be planning and preparation for disasters. A big flood in N. O. was #3 on the federal govt.'s list of most dire potential emergencies, yet they never did anything close to adequate planning. Then when it happened, they totally dropped the ball. Of course State and Local govt. share responsibility, but most of us don't vote for those officeholders. We all vote for our national leaders -- hence the focus on them -- and this team has been consistently wrong and inept at virtually every turn.

[Frank Black]

Fair points. But here's a question, where are all the fathers? The percentage of black kids in New Orleans raised by a single mom is probably upwards of 80%. Isn't this more of a scandal than a government that, shockingly, performs poorly? That's what governments do after all.

[aggypryd]

frankblack said:

Fair points. But here's a question, where are all the fathers? The percentage of black kids in New Orleans raised by a single mom is probably upwards of 80%. Isn't this more of a scandal than a government that, shockingly, performs poorly? That's what governments do after all.

Read up on William Lynch...

It's amazing the effect he had, and is still having on Blacks...

[Frank Black]

I read up on him. What do you mean?